Avernum 5 Early, Early Notes
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 20:21
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Sounds great! You know, I think the lack of outdoors wouldn't have bothered me at all if it were entirely new areas. It was the strangeness of having Silvar and Cotra ony a few city-sizes apart that made Avernum feel cramped. A game area that was technically the same size but that was supposed to represent a smaller area would have been fine. —Alorael, who now has to keep hoping that A5 will take place primarily somewhere new. Remaking Avernum proper has to be getting boring by now! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 21:15
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quote:I know you used the roamer icon as the hellhound and the clawbug as the chitrach, but what do you mean by using the 'roamer icon as a clawbug?' -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 21:51
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The chitrach icon was, thank god, replaced with a new one someone on the boards designed in the later (I want to say 1.02, but I think I'm making that number up) releases of A4. Chitrachs were bad enough without looking like clawbugs. Hallelujah to a number of Jeff's comments, especially the one about no pylons. And I agree with Alorael about the seamless world. If it's a new area, it wouldn't be so bad; the caves of Exile simply weren't designed for those kind of maps and don't lend themselves to them well. To pick one example from the games, Upper Exile would work okay, I think. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 22:13
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Upper Avernum wouldn't work that well either. However a series of caves where we don't have pre-existing expectations about scale would be fine for a seamless world. I know most of you hated them, but I liked the multi-level Honeycomb. That would be quite believable for a new area type. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 22:36
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I didn't mind the Honeycomb either, but I, probably like you, grew up on old-skool dungeon crawlers, of the kind that nobody who didn't grow up on them can tolerate. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 22:43
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quote:I totally said that before Alorael. Or are you just afraid to say you agreed with something Emperor Tullegolar said? Pylons: I'm glad there won't be an army of them anywhere. I probably wouldn't have minded one or two guarding some kind of mysterious vahnatai treasure, though. Elevation: I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person out there who is thinking "Elevations are coming back? Damn it!" Honeycomb: I think the Avernum 5 honeycomb was the most accurate representation of a cave in the whole series. In real life, caves aren't all on the same plane like Avernum is, they go up and down and all around and whatnot. Personal Note: Still no official word saying Rentar is dead. I am, of course, not saying she should be a major character, but I still want her to be alive and with a cameo! I still love you, Rentar! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 00:19
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quote:One proviso: elevation is a fine thing as long as the way things are displayed is tweaked so that being behind a hill doesn't mean you can't see a damn thing around you. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 00:24
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Moving to a new area, and with a fresh plot, should work well with the new engine. I think a fair number of A4's limitations came, directly or indirectly, from using an engine that had received a lot of development through the Geneforge series, to pick up a plot and setting that were leftover from the old engine. A lot of things kind of got modulated into a weird key, so to speak. Not just the scale; even the heavy emphasis on combat was, I think, a matter of a suddenly much-upgraded combat engine burning a hole in the pocket of the plot. But in fact I really liked A4, doubtless because I was almost entirely new to Avernum when I played it, so I'm really looking forward to A5. Adding height would be the coolest factor, I think. And then maybe that can be translated over to G5 when its turn comes. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 01:22
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quote:I should have known Thuryl would find a way to complain. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 03:08
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The other problem with the old elevation system was that sometimes adjacent enemies couldn't be selected. You could key in one target to be added and have one that was already selected become removed. This seemed only to happen when both were on a slope. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 06:03
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quote:My favorite upgrade. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 07:53
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Wow... just, wow. Thank you Jeff! Elevations, keyboard support, elimination of all things Geneforge, shiny new graphics... this is sincerely a good day! -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 08:46
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quote:No -- the most accurate representation of caves was back in Exile and Exile II, when the combination of frequent written descriptions with undetailed gaphics meant you had to use your imagination. Anyway, like Thuryl and Randomizer, I grew up on those old school dungeon crawlers, but I never liked that element of them. Regular 2-D mazes are one thing, but including lots of ups and downs just turns navigation into a headache without actually making it any more interesting. It's just taxing. I mean, who truly enjoyed the 32 x 32 x 10 labyrinths of the old Wizardry games? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 14:15
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The most accurate representation of a cave wouldn't consist entirely of huge galleries. Most of the time you'd be on your hands and knees in damp muck. That's fun in person and not so much fun as a game. —Alorael, who liked the old Honeycomb's plethora of secret passages. He thought the new Honeycomb was okay, but it's really not that hard to navigate. Making it have even more levels, none of which have any sensible relationship to each other, would truly make it a Honeycomb to be remembered and feared. Then again, the Brigand's Madhouse wasn't all that popular. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 14:40
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In Dynasty Warriors V, there were some levels in which the mini-map would not appear to make things more confusing for the player. It was most effective. That would be an interesting element that Jeff could add. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 14:50
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Originally by Alorael: quote:Really? The caves I am most familiar with usually involve scrambling up or down piles of wet or icy rocks while keeping my head low with a flickering flashlight. Flashlights and headlamps often fail in Dikiyoba's hands. No one is yet sure why. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 16:15
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quote:Nethergate had mazes in which the automap was unavailable, and so did the Exile series. Most of the time they were a nuisance; the Hedge Prison was pretty much the worst part of Nethergate. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 16:32
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The trick to get around no automap was to use the cursor to shift the screen around. I like the mapping in Wizardry. In the original Might and Magic game I made dozens of colored maps for the outdoor areas and dungeons. Those were much worse than anything in Spiderweb Games. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, February 7 2007 21:02
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quote:How could I forget the hedge maze?!? I don't remember that happening in Exile, though. Maybe it's been too long. Either way, I'm suprised to see you calling such a thing a "nuisance." I'd expect that kind of talk from me, but your the sick freak that likes to challenge himself to playing Geneforge without magic or creations. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7064
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 10:39
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Get rid of herb lore and arcane lore. Unless there continues to be advantages for ever higher levels. They make you want to wait for the walkthrough to know how to optimally play for the game same with trainers. What was really fun in Avernum 4 was doing all the stages out of order. You could totally skip entire areas. Less small encounters. More epic battles. More stealing, stealth. Murder of innocent civilians. Basically what I would want is lots of towns to steal and talk and do stealth missions. One epic battle per area. No millions of chitrachs! I want to be able to buy a house to store all the quest items and recipe ingredients. Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:38
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I want arrows back. The ability to mix-and-match different arrows and bows was nice. You could really do it sort of like the thorn batons in Geneforge. Heck, you could even include occasionally reloading your quiver. Also, how about superweapons for fighters, ones that make up the deficit between melee and missile/spell users. You could have them so that they didn't do much physical damage, but did a plethora of damage in fire/ice/acid/poison/etc. Or maybe have some sort innate ability built-into them that takes affect every swing (radiates an element, doing damage to all nearby creatures, etc.), making them generally more effective. Or just build them so that they have very high level bonuses but do a low base damage, making them very powerful in the hands of one trained to use those weapons, but otherwise useless when used by anyone else. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:53
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I think the thing I liked most about Avernum 4 was that there were lots of unique bosses. I love named enemies, there should be lots of them in future games. Expecially ones that don't have a quest that goes with them, like that one nephil with the spear early in the game. Sort of like optional bosses, and they can drop special items. That would be cool. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 12:04
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Just a minor point, but what exactly is an "epic" battle? Epic has become a term of general overuse without any specific meaning anymore. I, for one, consider the small band of heroes triumphing over the endless insectile hordes fairly epic. Do you want more battles against fewer but more powerful enemies, or plot-related battles, or what? —Alorael, who can't say he really enjoyed the chitrachs. That was mostly because they chew through any party that isn't painfully optimized by the time they reach the Eastern Gallery and the way they parry and riposte so much that combat is a headache. The concept of fighting a huge swarm of fairly minor but relentless enemies worked just fine. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 12:26
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Originally by Nioca: quote:Except that each kind of thorn only loads into one kind of baton. To be honest, the only thing Dikiyoba wants from A5 at the moment is for it to run on Dikiyoba's computer with minimal hassle. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 16:49
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quote:Apply for beta testing since Jeff is really interested in getting the games to run on all the systems before general release. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |