A Few Advance Notes On Geneforge 4

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AuthorTopic: A Few Advance Notes On Geneforge 4
Apprentice
Member # 6834
Profile #125
probly will be fixed in G4 :(
Posts: 13 | Registered: Sunday, February 26 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #126
Another futile request...

Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

Rebels

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.
2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

Loyalists

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.
2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

I realize that there shouldn't be an easy option, but maybe the Awakened path could be much harder but more morally fufilling. In G3, there was a shopkeeper in South End who clearly supported Awakened views, but the idea wasn't carried to the rest of the game.

On an unrelated note, can we get rid of the creation limit and put some minor creations in? I wanna have an army of worms! :D

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5566
Profile #127
..... I just read the topic and my reaction was rather like this

First five minutes: Cooooooooooooool G4.
First ten minutes: Cooool G4 this forum is great!
First twenty minutes:....... Wow these people are just plain strange.
Present: .................Alright Im gonna back away slowly "back's away slowly then at safe distance run's" about ten second's pass "comes running back" I can't help it G4! G4! G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!G4!.... Alright Im okay, somebody give me a Monster energy drink NOW ....

But yeah G4 look's great really, errr....... Yeah..... well bye
Posts: 507 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 3618
Profile #128
quote:
Micawber wrote:
At the moment there are too many special artifacts that you equip for making creations and then remove immediately. This feels a bit artificial. The player's investment of skill points in shaping skills should be worth more.
I agree. I think it ought to work like this:

All Fire Creations in the party should get one bonus level for each Fire Shaping skill the Shaper has, not to exceed the Fire Shaping skill the Shaper had when he created it. (And also for Battle and Magic creations and shaping skills, mutatis mutandis.)

This would be just like the current system except that if you use an artifact to shape a higher-level creation and then remove the artifact, your creation loses the bonus until you put the artifact back on or otherwise gain in the shaping skill. The current dilemma between keeping an experienced creation or making a new one with your better skills would not be affected, and there would still be reason to set up a private "shaping laboratory" somewhere with artifacts (you might put on an artifact before shaping, even though you didn't intend to use the artifact later, if you anticipated eventually training in that skill and wanted the creation to be able to grow when you did so), but there would also be a reason to wear bonus-to-shaping artifacts into battle.
quote:
Nick Ringer wrote:
I'd love an agent that's good at shaping, or a guardian with magic skills.
It would be nice if all six logical combinations of strengths and weaknesses were available, instead of just three. (I too wish for the combinations you mention. The magic user with shaping skills would especially play differently from any of the current classes.)

Or at least, since Jeff is replacing the Agent-Guardian-Shaper choice with Servile-(Battle Creature?)-Human anyway, he'd might as well at least switch to the three combinations of strengths and weaknesses that we haven't seen yet; it would be a nice touch, and an easy-to-implement tweak that would leave GF4 with slightly different gameplay from the previous GF's.
quote:
Wonko The Sane wrote:
Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

Rebels

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.
2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

Loyalists

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.
2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

I realize that there shouldn't be an easy option, but maybe the Awakened path could be much harder but more morally fufilling.

I disagree completely.

There's already a "harder but more fulfilling" option for those who want to take the harder but morally better path: not using canisters.

I like being forced to take sides in the moral dilemma. Should we share power with all, knowing that many will misuse it and cause others to suffer? Or shall we try to control the power, knowing that the chosen few will lord over everyone else? Freedom versus Safety; Capitalism versus Communism; Democracy versus Stability. It's a major issue facing real-world political communities, and the game is richer for exploring it. To make a miracle solution that the virtuous can pick misses the point, even if it's harder than the uncomfortable answers--in the real world, honest, well-intentioned people can disagree, there being pros and cons on both sides; nobody has a moral high ground.

I don't trust my government, but I trust even less the gun-toting anarchist types that share my distrust of the government. If I wanted to get away from such problems into a fictional world where good and evil are obvious, I'd play Avernum. When I play Geneforge, it's for the sake of thinking about them from a different perspective.
Posts: 33 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #129
After actually finishing G3 and seeing that ending (no-canister rebel) I agree with you somewhat. Litalia seemed much more human at the end, and the rebel and shaper causes were both justified.

I just wish that the reasons for either side were presented to you when you made the decision. At the actual Creator, it was a question of whether to plunge an island into war or not. I would prefer that Litalia and perhaps Greiner be there, each trying to convince me that their side was the best right before I made the decision to repair or not.
Still, an insignificant quip in a phenomenal game, and I hope G4 is a lot like it.

(Another engine request: In G3, if a caster knew Essence Orbs, all he would do was cast it at you. No other spells besides scripted events. Can we have a bit of balance? Maybe some mental spells and basic blessings too?)

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #130
When last we left our Awakened heroes, in G2, their moral high ground was in a mudslide. Tuldaric's augmentations and mass Drakon enslavement were the sect's only hope for survival, and he was already a good hike down Barzahl's road away from humanity.

But that's why I would like to see an Awakened sect return in some form, perhaps along with an 'enlightened Shapers' sect led by someone like Khyryk. Faced with the two extremes of Rebels and Shaper Council, it's natural to seek a middle way; but the problem of shaping's power is not resolved by such good intentions. The middle way is extremely problematic. Being caught in the middle, it has to fight; fighting, it becomes either - or both - of its enemies.

Far from being a morally easy 'white hat' option, an Awakened plotline could present the sharpest moral dilemmas of all. And for me it is seeing the limitations of the 'moderate' options, as in G2, that makes the more extreme alternatives in G3 make sense.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4278
Profile Homepage #131
[quote=Wonko The Sane]

2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.
[quote]

If you've never role-played the jerk, then you've never role-played.

quote:

On an unrelated note, can we get rid of the creation limit and put some minor creations in? I wanna have an army of worms! :D

Answer = no. Game engines have limits. pushing those limits = lag. lag = bad.

But, as for storyline, the more endings the better. I was disappointed with G3 a bit, having only the two sides (mind you, different combinations of endings.)

But still, more endings = re-playability

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Pathological Jerk
Jerking at Spiderweb since 1999
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, April 18 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #132
quote:
Originally written by Wonko The Sane:

Another futile request...

Can we please have the Awakened back in G4? I don't really like G3's moral choices, Rebel or Loyalist, because:

Rebels

1. Every shaper on the Rebel side is a completely power-crazed maniac.
2. The poor townspeople on Terrestia and regular soldiers never did anything wrong.

Loyalists

1. The Shapers support a clearly flawed system.
2. You have to be an absolute jerk to every non-shaper you meet.

So, what are the Awanakeds beliefs? A middle-way?

Anyway, in GF3 you can be Rebel and Loyal:
I never beneficiated the Shapers training because I always treat outsiders and serviles well, but I always killed rogue creations (except the cryodryaks-mother and his children) and obedy at Lord Rahul.
And I always used canisters. ;)

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba
Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #133
EDIT: Double post :(

[ Monday, March 20, 2006 12:38: Message edited by: Wonko The Sane ]

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #134
Play G1 or G2. The Awakened believe that the shapers should treat creations as equals, not superiors or inferiors. They are basically rebels that don't run around obliterating cities at will.

Of course, they don't have much of a hope because the shapers are completely intolerant of any creation that isn't their loyal servant.

(P.S: Why do you have Thuryl's leaving statement in your sig? Just curious.)

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #135
It's obvious that if the Awakened have any chance of survival then the Shapers (or atleast their beliefs) have got to go. Also I believe that the canisters can't be allowed to live if the Awakened are to. The Awakened can't be so passive, they've got to resatart the Shapers after winning the war and set them straight from the beggining.

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All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
Profile #136
But if the Awakened stopped being passive, they would either become that which they hated - they'd have to fight uncaring about casualties like the rebels or dominate others like the loyalists or even both - or else get beaten. In other words, the Awakened only survive if they do not fight.

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~Note : The professional newbie's advice should not be taken seriously, or at all.~
LINKAGE
Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #137
quote:
Originally written by Wonko The Sane:

(P.S: Why do you have Thuryl's leaving statement in your sig? Just curious.)
For remember him and his decision. He was a great member and a nice moderator.

Well, it isn't a particular reason, though. Or maybe it was, but when Thuryl leaves I was very shocked, and when I saw this statement I immediately put in my signaure, guided by instinct. Sorry, this may be not much clear, (in fact ISN'T clear) but isn't clear for me too.

[ Tuesday, March 21, 2006 04:31: Message edited by: MagmaDragoon ]

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba
Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #138
quote:
Originally written by Dallerdin with a custom moniker.:

But if the Awakened stopped being passive, they would either become that which they hated - they'd have to fight uncaring about casualties like the rebels or dominate others like the loyalists or even both - or else get beaten. In other words, the Awakened only survive if they do not fight.
Exactly. If they fight they lose their morals. If they don't fight then they'll die. They have to fight the Shapers and Rebels. Kill them both off and restart the Shapers under Awakened beliefs. That is the only way I see for them to win.

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All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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Member # 6652
Profile #139
quote:
Originally written by GIFTSking:

Exactly. If they fight they lose their morals. If they don't fight then they'll die. They have to fight the Shapers and Rebels. Kill them both off and restart the Shapers under Awakened beliefs. That is the only way I see for them to win.
Huh?
Killing off the rebels and the shapers would certainly cause the Awakened to lose their morals. They also definitely don't have the manpower for that. The only way I see for the Awakened to prevail would be to convince both Shapers and Rebels, after they've both beaten the opposite side to death, to embrace their beliefs as a solution to neverending war.

I would imagine the Awakened path to be involving a lot of diplomacy and stealth, perhaps the asassination of extreme rebels or extreme shapers.
Or they could recruit some shapers and set up a "servile heaven" in a remote location, where everyone is equal and serviles have power. This would probably be easier than trying to force peace.

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #140
Originally by Wonko the Sane:

quote:
Or they could recruit some shapers and set up a "servile heaven" in a remote location, where everyone is equal and serviles have power. This would probably be easier than trying to force peace.
That was the Awakened's plan in G2. It tended to work out for them when Dikiyoba played G2, but apparently that's not the ending that was chosen to lead to G3.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #141
I've said this multiple times, the Awakened would have to kill hte Shapers and Rebels. The reason why is by now all sides are set on their beliefs. If not then they would probably be Awakened. Maybe if the Awakened sell Rebel secrets to the Shapers adn vice versa they oculd weaken both sides enough to wipe them out. Then as I said they could rebuild the world around Awakened beliefs. Bottom line, THERE ARE TOO MANY EXTREMISTS TO KILL WITHOUT WAR!

EDIT: Just a little question, what ending is GF3 based on? I just want to know the side.

[ Tuesday, March 21, 2006 15:19: Message edited by: GIFTSking ]

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All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5517
Profile #142
I have a few suggestions for G4

-Maybe Awakened can come back, but under a leader that seems to follow thier morals, but it actually a shapeshifting shaper or creation who wants to takes the power of the geneforge(if its at the end of this) and no matter what path you take, you have to kill him/her/it

-Another choice from the origional 3. Seperatists. A bunch of Shapers, civilians, and others who want to seperate from the shaper laws, but keep shaping and keep thier control over creations. A (or close to) Pure Evil sect. You join them, you have to force your way to the top, and defend it untill the end of the game. There would be shapers with creations, gaurdians, agents, whtvr, calling out a challange, then attacking. But if your in charge, you get things for dirt cheap at Seperatist settlements.

- Another kind of shaping, Undead shaping. You create zombies, skeletons, and the final one could be a lich or vampire or other powerful undead.

I think my ideas are pretty good, any feedback?
Posts: 49 | Registered: Friday, February 18 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #143
There's a porblem with the undead thing. That's not Shaping, it's necromancy. You don't Shape the undead, you ressurect them. That is the reason it can't be shaper magic, and also in Jeff's games, necromancy is frowned upon.
Also, IF the Awakened come back then it would be a lot coller if they weren't evil or whatever.
Lastly, the Separists, what the heck are there goals? In other words, explain more about them.

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All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile #144
Glafna-

Your ideas are interesting, but probably not feasible. I don't like the idea of a common enemy no matter what side you choose, and I would enjoy seeing the Awakened actually accomplish something, for once. Vampires and anything beyond shades are probably (and hopefully) not going to make it into any Geneforge. That is the domain of Avernum. It also lacks a theme. Observe:

Magic Shaping: Mostly missile attacks with additional effects.
Battle Shaping: Melee damage and lots of hitpoints.
Fire Shaping: A balance between missile and melee.

Undead shaping would fluctuate wildly, vampires and skeletons being melee but liches being a missile-with-effects type. There is no central theme to undead besides undead-ness.

Separatists: So these are basically rebels that want to shape freely but care nothing for creation's rights? This sounds very similiar to the Barzites, but I have never played G2 beyond the demo, so I don't know. What would be the motivation for joining the sect?

Another question I just thought up: If you're playing a servile in G4, and you can shape, how on earth would you join the Shapers? They would kill you on sight. And why would you join the Shapers? It'd be like "Hi, I want to join you and risk my own life fighting my own kind so that me and my race can be opressed."

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4278
Profile Homepage #145
quote:
Originally written by GIFTSking:

Bottom line, THERE ARE TOO MANY EXTREMISTS TO KILL WITHOUT WAR!
No, look. Here's what needs to happen. The awakened, takers, and shaper council should send representatives to negote a sort of peace, and write a "Universal Rights Charter", clearly labeling out the roles that shapers, humans, serviles, and (drakes?) shall play. Sure they all have diametrically opposed views, but if they can leran to compromise a little, the world would be a safer, less fun game to play.

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Pathological Jerk
Jerking at Spiderweb since 1999
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, April 18 2004 07:00
Agent
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Yeah, but who really wants that. The Takers are the rebels now. They're goals are to KILL ALL SHAPERS! Somehow a peace confrence doesn't seem likely. Jeff already told us that this is a war. What's the fun in a peace confrence? They have to battle it out. The Awakened if they could somehow could convert the Shapers, but what are the chances. If the Awakened or Shapers are going to win then the Rebels must die. Also the Rebels WANT war. End of rant.

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All praise the greatest mod of all time! Long live Master Aran!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile #147
I don't think all the rebels have to die. Not every single drakon is bent on the destruction of the shapers. Not every outcast shaper is, either. Orois Blaze in G3 wanted nothing more than to run a sucessful business.
Perhaps after the rebels battle the shapers for a while, after the Council and the Ur-Drakons are dead, the ordinary grunts on each side will stage a massive rebellion against their leaders and then bargain for peace. You can only fight a war for so long before the general populace (in this case human soldiers, serviles, and intelligent battle creations) become tired of it. Orchestrating the rebellion and winning the ensuing battles would be a good Awakened path, I think.

(And no one's answered my question. Why and how would an intelligent, shaping-capable servile join the Loyalists?)

EDIT: Typo

[ Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:28: Message edited by: Wonko The Sane ]

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4345
Profile #148
quote:
Originally written by GIFTSking:

Just a little question, what ending is GF3 based on? I just want to know the side.
It seems to be based either on the Loyalist or the Neutral ending. The overall effects of both are more or less the same, so it could be either.

And as for this bit about the Awakened, the fact is, while their ideals of a perfect world are nice, but unrealistic. Even with G2, the Awakened still had to fight(if you do their ending). The fact is, people are unreasonable. War is sometimes unavoidable.

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"Damn Scots. They ruined scotland!"-Groundskeeper Willy, the Simpsons
Posts: 96 | Registered: Tuesday, May 4 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #149
Being Awakened could be possible. Jeff said that he would have an elusive faction. The Awakened sit on the sidelines hiding but growing while watching the rebels and Shapers beat each other up with a well placed assanation or to to keep the fighting going. After both sides are really weak they step in and force peace onto the world.

They could be made up of Shapers like Khyrk and Sharon, Serviles like Pinner, Drakons like Orious Blaze & Sholai.

[ Wednesday, March 22, 2006 16:00: Message edited by: I_am_a_Minotaur ]
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00

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