improvements for geneforge 3.... your thoughts

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AuthorTopic: improvements for geneforge 3.... your thoughts
Shock Trooper
Member # 3716
Profile #75
I like to feel I'm doing things right in a game, therefore I would like to see more often situations in which I can help, say, serviles which are outnumbered or maybe a farmer and his son who are about to be attacked by a pack of rogues, where I feel I helped the good guys and saved the day. Most people here have made comparisons with Exile, and though they are different games, I still think some elements could help Geneforge, I remember there were some points in Exile II where you were given the option of helping some travellers that were being ambushed or attacking them. That's what I mean.
Also, I would like to see the so many enemies that have shaping skills actually SHAPE when fighting me. Many shapers fell to my sword but NO ONE ever shaped (at least) a fyora to aid him when he was fighting me, why?
I also think one should be able to shape powerful creations from the beginning of the game, what's the point of creating an UR-DRAKON later in the game when there is no need to shaping it because you have become so powerful on your own?
I also agree with modifying the sounds. Almost every shaper that is killed makes the very same sound I make when I get killed.
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!

"Inspiration comes from hard work" -Charles Baudelaire.
Posts: 292 | Registered: Sunday, November 23 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3683
Profile #76
would love to see an option ending where one can remain in the GF world and become for instance, a merchant. :D

For those who forsake the shaper's rules, ie joining awakened or Takers, why bother go back to shaper council at all?

Moreover, some kind of spider monsters would be nice and take out mice - they give me nightmare!!!
Posts: 266 | Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
Member # 3521
Profile #77
Spiders? I would much rather have giant rats, thank you. :P


"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita.
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
Member # 406
Profile #78
I personally have two big wishes for Geneforge 3.

Thing the First: Missile weapons. In Geneforge 2, missile weapons had the potential to be a flexible and fun gameplay option, but for the most part aren't. Interesting possibilities exist - there are weapons that disable, deal damage over time, or strike many targets at once - but for the most part they aren't borne to fruition. The first reason is that missile weapons really don't fit in to any of the character types. Guardians get the skill the cheapest, but are tough enough that they don't need to avoid close combat and powerful enough that they would rather be in the thick of it anyway. Agents get the skill at a reasonable price but would rather use Battle Magic. Really, Shapers are the ones that want to use missile weapons the most; they're frail enough to want to attack from a distance, and using missiles instead of magic saves their essence for making, healing, and blessing a bunch of creations. But Shapers get the worst price for the skill, meaning that missile weapons don't have a 'home.' The second reason missile weapons aren't so hot is that they simply lack power. Melee weapons not only deal more damage, they also come with a chance to hit twice. Quick Action is really nothing more than "Melee Weapons II," a second category for point placement that really does the same thing as the first one, i.e., make your melee attacks stronger. Finally, missile weapons suffer from inventory management. First, you have to manage ammunition. Wands, crystals, and batons all have to be managed and kept track of in order to be used. They also take up valuable space in your inventory. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the game, inventory management tends to be boring rather than challenging. You can leave a zone any time you want to and go stash things in your home at Drypeak, so it's easy to take enough items for one trip and leave the rest at home... easy, but tedious. More importantly, the finite amount of ammunition makes missile weapons less enjoyable. As a rule, the more interesting and fun a particular weapon is, the fewer times you get to use it; for example, the most useful wands appear only a few times in the entire game and can't be replaced once depleted. Set aside for a moment the challenge aspect of conserving ammunition. Using wands and crystals to cast cool spells is fun. Running out of ammunition forever is not fun. It's reasonable for there to be restrictions on missile weapon uses, but I think it would be better if the restrictions didn't involve never being able to use that missile weapon again. Second, simply using missile weapons is a minor hassle. If you want to switch between a melee weapon and a baton, not only do you give up any magic bonuses on the weapon and 3 action points for the round, it also means searching through your inventory, finding the baton, switching it for your sword, and putting your sword back in the inventory. If you have to do that every battle, those seconds spent clicking and dragging add up to a lot of bother. Now, inventory management is a valid part of the game, and tasks that require clicking on your inventory aren't exactly uncommon in RPGs, but those minor hassles add an extra layer of annoyance to an already unrewarding tactical decision.

So, my first wish for GF3 would be to make missile weapons more flexible and easy to use. Having two weapon slots, one for melee and one for missile, would go a long way. That would make missiles much more convenient, especially if you could switch through the two attack options just like you can switch to and from battle magic in GF2. Making it easier to manage and replenish ammunition would also be a great help. For one thing, it would be nice if wands could be recharged. Considering how much Shapers seem to enjoy hooking things up to gigantic, glowing energy crystals, you would think they would have figured out a way to put magic back into a pointy stick. Likewise, considering that thorns literally grow on trees, it seems reasonable that you would be able to periodically return to where thorn bushes grow and get new thorns rather than scouring the world's supply caches and merchants for fresh stock. Plus, that would give a natural balance and symmetry between the three kinds of missile weapons and their ammunition. Thorns would take time to grow, but wand recharging and crystal purchasing would be available on demand. Wands would only be able to contain so many charges, so you would have a capacity limit on your ammunition, wheras you could carry around as many thorns and crystals as you could pack on. Finally, crystals would be the most expensive ammunition, since living things and magical energy are naturally cheap, or even free, for Shapers.

Thing the Second: The economy. I just recently finished a game of GF2, and less than halfway through the game, gold become worthless. I chose to join the Servants, and as a result, Rising was the last place I found merchants that would deal with me. I ended the game fabulously wealthy, with a house full of salable valuables, and nobody to sell to or buy from. Furthermore, even if anybody was willing to trade, there wouldn't have been anything for me to trade for. All of the best equipment is found by killing monsters and completing quests anyway. I could have bought usable items like pods, spores, and so forth, but those are common enough that I was never in danger of running out of even the most valuable items. Now, I do understand that things would be different if I played the game differently. The Servants have the fewest purchasing options overall, for one thing. Other sects can spend money on powerful high-level abilities. For another, if I were playing on a higher difficulty level, I would probably have found myself buying those extra supplies and running out of things. Still, the point remains - at some time, usually well before the end of the game, every player will find him or herself with a lot of money and nothing to spend it on, and I think that that's a shame. Let me illustrate why. Let's say you get some loot for doing something - killing a monster, completing a quest, a bit of good old-fashioned home invasion, whatever. If you get a shielding pod, you have one more shielding pod. If you get an essence pod, you have one more essence pod. If you get a battle pod, you have one more battle pod. But if you get enough money to buy a shielding pod, an essence pod, or a battle pod... you have a decision to make. Making those decisions - what do I spend my money on? - is part of the fun of the game. Just like creating your own custom army of horrible mutant creatures is fun, just like choosing skills to make your own custom Shaper is fun, buying and selling things to make your own custom inventory kit-out can also be fun. But, if nobody is selling powerful items, or if you end up with powerful items whether or not you spend money on anything, then that customization opportunity does not exist. So, I hope that GF3 has a more robust economy, with merchants both more available and more necessary.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Sunday, December 16 2001 08:00
Member # 3776
Profile Homepage #79
Were not life drain weapons available in A3?
Life Drain=Take Enemy HP when you hit them and heal you with thier HP.
This weapons would be real good in Geneforge series if introduced.

On this topic many good possible improvements for Geneforge 3 have been given.Does Jeff Vogel take part in these software boards.If not does he know what's the contents of this topic.Just curious?

[ Thursday, January 01, 2004 18:45: Message edited by: glaahk ]

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Posts: 413 | Registered: Friday, December 12 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
Profile #80
Well, I think it's time to weed out the crappy suggestions and compile a list of the good ones and see if there is anything else or any objections.

1. Allowing certain creations to equip/carry items.

2. New, albeit not radically different, low-end creations.

3. More portrait options for each class.

4. Equip a missile weapon and a melee weapon at the same time. Look up two posts.

5. Cap trainers somewhere other than base +2.

6. Change the way unlocking works, so when the window comes up you can select a certain number of living tools to use, allowing you to conserve a couple with the unlock spell.

7. Make AP more like a commodity to be spent. (Attacking uses 5, if you had 6 then you have 1 left)

8. Doing something (????) about the economy. Look up two posts.

9. Make "Make Inactive" make your creations more, well, inactive.

10. More of the map revelation.

11.More options for allies to join you for a short amount of time like the guardian in the early game. One shot help.

12. Make it possible to leave creations at home and dress up in non-shaper clothing to ask the townspeople what they really think about life. Not having to wear a "shaper" sign around your neck.

13. Different icons for unique items. Even if they are just color edits.

14. More differences between the three classes. Maybe a new skill or an innate ability, they need something to make them more different.

15. The ability to join factions earlier.

16. (From Marcelo's post) I would like to see more often situations in which I can help, say, serviles which are outnumbered or maybe a farmer and his son who are about to be attacked by a pack of rogues, where I feel I helped the good guys and saved the day. I still think some elements could help Geneforge, I remember there were some points in Exile II where you were given the option of helping some travellers that were being ambushed or attacking them.

I think that list is pretty fair. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but they seem to be the best so far. So, discuss. Don't whine that I left all the sound complaints off, I play with music in the background and my computer is usually muted anyway. Sounds don't mean anything, and unless you can get TM, Imban, Alorael, Drakey, or some other distinguished member to support them, I think they should effectively be removed from the discussion. So, discuss if you agree with any or strongly disagree with any. I think I weeded out most of the craptacular suggestions. Or, yell at me. I don't care.

EDIT: With a post that big, there was no way I'd get it done with no errors.

[ Thursday, January 01, 2004 18:46: Message edited by: Aarrow Swift ]

I hate signatures.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3716
Profile #81
Good job arrow, now I got another "wish". In exile II there were massive battle (against the empire troops), you could face like 15 soldiers, 3 captains + mages and that was real fun, it took time and after the battle you had a lot of stuff to pick up. I miss those big battles. How about something like this: you are comfortably resting in your home in the Shaper's country when suddenly, an army of takers attack the city, it's an unexpected invasion, so everything is turmoil and sirens are heard and you are called to arms, will you engage in that massive fight (let's say 20 (powerful) serviles, 20 drakons, 10 dryaks, 10 battle gammas, etc, will you fight for the shapers or against them?
How about that?
Also, how about sailing (to another place) on boats (like in exile II) and have naval battles?

[ Thursday, January 01, 2004 21:03: Message edited by: Marcelo ]

"Inspiration comes from hard work" -Charles Baudelaire.
Posts: 292 | Registered: Sunday, November 23 2003 08:00
Member # 3746
Profile #82
Marcelo's got a point. To this, I add: Boats have always played a small role. In GF1, there was a reason for this, obviously. But GF2.. you could've had a small boat that travels rivers. Heck, you could even have special mutations that only live on a certain island.

And what about in GF1, that "specially modified Drayk" that served as your craft? Why can't we make those? That'd be fun! Fire-spitting ships!
Posts: 153 | Registered: Tuesday, December 2 2003 08:00
Member # 27
Profile #83
I didn't bother reading much of this because it is four pages, and who has that time during 2:00 AM!?!?!?!?!?!

This game doesn't need any new creations (if that has been brought up), but a way to mutate your creations. Like put points into clawbug, then put points into a... Fyora, and you have a multi-"classed" monster. It would add more strategy. Of course what this game really needs is scantily clothed babes. :P
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Member # 1016
Profile #84
The ability to buy spells and creature creation ability is a nice addition, though for spells I would make it so that higher levels of a spell would cost more rather than just limit the player to only buying two levels of each. For exmple buying level one unlock would cost 100 gold, but to buy level two you would need 200 and level 3 would cost 400, creatures should probalably still be limited to only being able to buy two levels if at 3rd level you get a more powerful version.
Posts: 141 | Registered: Saturday, April 20 2002 07:00
Member # 3853
Profile Homepage #85
I guess it would be time to implement some kind of networking support, so that the game would continue to entertain after completing all the mandatory quests and plots. Something to borrow frm Diablo for example.

Less is more, nothing is nothing...
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sunday, January 4 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3683
Profile #86
Ditto with Replicant (#4) on missile weapons and maybe the game can give more detailed description on each missile type's ability.

I found use for crystals since they cost only 3 ap/round, but wands and batons just lost their significance under those powerful spell skills.

How about creatures that can fly and attack from air?
Posts: 266 | Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
Member # 27
Profile #87
I wouldn't see the point of them because they wouldn't be able to fly indoors, and because if they were flying then they couldn't be hit by meleers, which would make the game way too easy. And if they could be hit by meleers, then that would probably defeat the purpose of flying.
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
Profile Homepage #88
More low level creation options
Possibly a new class of creation, like Flying Creations (wouldn't it be cool to have a bird to peck your enemies eyes?)

agrees with person above who said that missle weapons need more use/options

I have probably said this before, but

Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!"

—Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3683
Profile #89
Missile weapons should have more roles then when deal with the flying creatures. :D

Got one more - How about options of dismissing npc characters in which you can pick them up after dismissing them with maybe requiring a few lucks or high leadership?
Posts: 266 | Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
Member # 3858
Profile #90
I don't really pay attention to attack sounds and stuff.
but i would like to see less guidance in the begging of the game. I felt like i had no choices, first to drypeak then then there then there then there. . . I would like to see more options
Also even when you have a fighting character I had to run in kill one guy run out, run in, run out etc.
as for the plot I would like tto see the awakened have some power. I want to join them moraly but i never do because they have very little to offer

[ Monday, January 05, 2004 16:50: Message edited by: wiffdude88 ]
Posts: 5 | Registered: Monday, January 5 2004 08:00
Member # 3797
Profile #91
i would like to see inns being more useful, like a universal inn system used not for just sleeping but storage, changing clothes (not just into townspersons clothes but different robes and styles)i would like to see signs or icons that tell me which shop i am about to enter instead of searching the whole city for the blacksmith. it would be nice if each town had a militia so that when i raided the town i felt a challenge (when i killed barzahl, i dealt with the rest of the city in less than 5 minutes) i would like to see spells broken when the caster dies (the lab in rising never opened after everyone was dead) i would like to learn the how to cook, smith, perform alchemy, and create living tools, mines and turrets - by being educated in libraries. i would like to hear some really tragic stuff from the servilles and have an option to commit suicide ;) it would be nice to see if say i as an agent when i am augmented for highers magics that there is a price to pay. i would like to be treated as a traitor if i betray my faction, banishment was ok... but i wanted to be literally dumped in a river of to some island with real strong creatures. an arena would be cool for betting, or for training my creation. i really want to see me start with a main creation which i keep through most of the game, like i am suposed to be testing it in the real world and it is totally unpredictable and changes form on its mood ( if on 0-20 health it turns into a big ur-drakon and blasts the enemies for 1000 damage) and some character creature influence like a gazer wont get along with a gaurdian because of its high intellect and lack of apreciation for fighting skills. i would like to face real moral issues that will challenge alot of peoples ethics.

maybe this isnt any help, but its whats on my mind.


[ Tuesday, January 06, 2004 07:46: Message edited by: skrewet ]

King Kong died for our sins
Posts: 13 | Registered: Wednesday, December 17 2003 08:00
Member # 3871
Profile Homepage #92
I'm fairly far along in the game but I haven't finished it, so perhaps I'm not quite valid to post here, but oh well. Here's my two cents.

- I've got to admit, I would really like more low to medium level creatures for the beggining of the game. Perhaps more medium-level though, only accessible to create after the game has been purchased, just to make the buyer want the full more.

I'm half-thinking about having a LOT of smaller creatures with high chances to hit, medium attack, and VERY low HP. From what I've played of the game (I'm up to... I just got into Benrii-Uss) it never seemed that I filled up all my creature slots. The most I ever got up to was five, including myself - and that's with the addition of that big blue fyora and a servile from some eyebeast lair. I tried having a bunch of weak creations that worked together, but I didn't get more than two kills before realizing they NEVER hit and that my shaper was doing all the damage. 'Twould be an alternative shaping strategy, and a damn good one too.

- In terms of the layout of map placement, world map, whatever, I think there should be more dead ends and more maps that have two links to other ones. Too many times I've forged ahead and just gone back to "clean up" some of the maps I've left behind. Then again, I've only been playing on normal... I'm guessing that's not as possible on higher difficulties.

- For plot, I doubt the game would even support shaper cities as Jeff described them - one city could be three or four maps! But I don't like the idea of doing another "wilderness campaign," although the game is kind of suited to it. Perhaps some sort of a thing where you're an officer in a colonization project, and you meet some "bandits" in the woods... Who've been shaping on their own for years without knowledge of anything outside their forest...

- For weapons, I kind of like the current system. Although cumbersome to play it's a little more realistic. But I've got to agree with the comment on shaper creativity - they're still using swords? I'd like to see more shaped weapons... perhaps a long, living whip that could wrap around and choke (stunning or paralyzing) a foe, or a living arrow that would do damage and paralyze the opponent, or living thorns that would automatically go for the vital areas of the target. I like the idea of having two weapon slots, but for two different weapon classes - heavy and light. Heavy would be basically everything in the game currently, while light would include daggers and other small arms... a thorn pistol... hehehe....

But I'm rambling. Yes. Pretty good first post. Don't eat my brain.

Psh. I'll think of something clever later.
Posts: 7 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00
Member # 3742
Profile Homepage #93
thought i'd chime in here since i'm the one that started this here topic, and i hope that jeff doesnt mind this discussion because it has got us talking about how we'd all like these "improvements" because we're fans of his game.

Anyway, one annoying thing that always ticked me off: some of the training characters that also had shops, the money you spent on learning spells disappeared! I was at a point where i had about 20K in gold and running out of places to sell stuff, so i bought some high level shaping spells (at about 5K each) thinking at least i could have a place to sell stuff finally, and after spending nearly 10K there, the message at the bottom said "this shop has 0 gold left."!!
Posts: 26 | Registered: Monday, December 1 2003 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #94
If people really want to see some of these thing implemented, you should do the same thing as for BoA: at some point when Jeff is just beginning to work on Geneforge 3, make a huge poll, listing all of these suggestions and asking people what they want. Then take the top 10 suggestions, write them up very well and submit the list to Jeff.

If you decide to do it that way, before making a poll you will have to remove all suggestions that would require significant changes to game engine. (You are not going to be able to use 2 weapons at once, no matter how hard you ask. You are also not going to see things such as transparent walls or expensive modern graphics.)

As for my own addition to the list, I have to repeat the complaint I had when beta-testing GF1: clicking on your character should not skip a turn. I've lost many battles because I accidentally clicked my character when trying to attack an oponent standing in front of me or when trying to take a small step forward.

Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Member # 3858
Profile #95
-As far as plot i would like to see the awakened complete thier goal so that in the begining they are very powerful, also I would like to see the shaper council pretending to be happy but bent on destroying the awakened. A human town would also be good and they too look nice but really want to overthrow the council. And natuarally the takers or Barzites. But more importantly A group of Demons which currupts all friendly ties(or pretend friendly ties) partway through the game.

[ Saturday, January 10, 2004 10:23: Message edited by: wiffdude88 ]
Posts: 5 | Registered: Monday, January 5 2004 08:00
Member # 3825
Profile #96
how about some stone skinned golems impervious to blades, and some chars that cant get stunned. i've found some of my creations too powerful that makes some battles too easy!
Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, December 26 2003 08:00
Member # 3881
Profile Homepage #97
Add real music to the game. It is essential to hear different tunes that convey different things to get the mood of the level your playing. The desolute sounds work okay for some of the desert levels, but we need some adventure tunes for forest levels, and some haunted music for ghost populated levels etc.

The next thing that is essential is to show what kind of weapon you are carrying! It doesn't have to be a different animation for a bronze sword and a shaped sword but heres what I want. An animation for carrying a daggar, carrying a baton, carrying a sword, and carrying a wand. Its annoying to see my character lift up a sword when he is casting a spell with a wand. For serviles, enemies and non enemies, this would be a good idea to make them all look a little different.

Finnally balance changes! Instead of making a it a race to the uber creatures, make some of the lesser ones be more specialized (poison attacks or haste special etc., and make more of them so its a good comination to have one heavy hitter (like an eye beast) and a few weaker ones. Also tone down the eye beast a little by making his attack weaker against you if your armor is high. And tone up the guardian drakon, hes not worth the cost.

Also make it so you can use the Geneforge, lots of people want to use it so they can make tons of creatures, even if it ruins the ending.

The kind of plot I want to see for Geneforge 3 is where something terrible has happend and the shapers and serviles have to stop fighting to destroy it. A huge event, like demons or something. Also make this take place in the Shapers world!!! No one wants any more colony adventures!

Another great thing would be some multiplayer support. Alot of my friends have geneforge 2 and we often compare stats and items that we have. Being able to have a 1v1 battle against a friend would be really fun. It would be just like any other battle, just on a newwork.

[ Tuesday, January 13, 2004 16:35: Message edited by: prankster959 ]
Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, January 10 2004 08:00
Member # 3698
Profile Homepage #98
A new class of creations like some that would fly. Maybe even a huge insect... :D

[ Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:50: Message edited by: Tris10101 ]

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Posts: 179 | Registered: Tuesday, November 18 2003 08:00
Member # 3592
Profile #99
I have been thinking of a few things I'd like:

1. magic items in combat

When opponents in a battle are defeated they have potions, crystals, and other items. I'd like to see opponents actually use these things against my character.

2. plot paths tied to different stats.

I'd like other stats to make alternate paths in the game, similar to how leadership works.

3. fight to the death

Having most of the opponents fight to the death is irrational. If things devolve into a fight and the opponent is critically wounded, I'd like for them to try and press for a truce or anything other than to continue to fight. Right now the options are usually limited to fleeing or fighting to the death -- and when an opponent flees they are easy to find again and press into battle. There should be a hide option.

4. hiding
Speaking of a hide option... I'd like to be able to use stealth more.

5. plot variation
For plot variation I'd like more interaction with normal characters at lower levels. It would be nice to have more side story aside from following the main plot lines. e.g. while the apprentice is getting started, he could make contacts with people by agreeing to protect a merchant on a trip, or things such as this. Make reputation more important.

6. scenario editors

I'd like for there to be an archive where people can submit maps they've made with adventures in them.

Posts: 6 | Registered: Saturday, October 25 2003 07:00