Saddam Hussein's Execution

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AuthorTopic: Saddam Hussein's Execution
Lifecrafter
Member # 34
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So the Big Guy of Iraq was executed on the morning of the 29th, right before the Year of the Pig. I'm not sure it was what he deserved, and hope only that it was the right thing to do. But what do you guys think? This is a straightforward "yes"/"no"/"don't know" poll, so-—even though you will anyway—-feel free to justify your answer.

EDIT: Agh! And Gerald Ford died!

[ Friday, December 29, 2006 21:10: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 49 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

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Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #1
One of the few substantial good things that came out of this whole Iraq War thing. Unfortunately, it will not change a whole lot about our current situation other than a brief spike in violence.

[ Friday, December 29, 2006 21:21: Message edited by: *i ]

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #2
Huh.

Only time will tell if this choice is beneficial. Likely it will serve as some type of closure to a hell of a lot of people only marginally affected by his life. The others, more closely touched by his particular brand of rulership, may find that this action fails to heal what has been riven.

Although, it is typical.

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Originally written by Kelandon:

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Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Agent
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I suspect this will be more trouble than it's worth.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon
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Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
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How come it's okay to speak ill of the dead when it's Saddam but not when it's Gerald Ford?

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
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Well, seeing as Saddam Hussein threatened the judge, the jury, the US public, the US in general, the President, and TM's mom (huh?) while he was on trial, I'd say he kind of had the execution thing coming.

quote:
Originally written by Cryptozoology:

How come it's okay to speak ill of the dead when it's Saddam but not when it's Gerald Ford?
<SARCASM>Oh, because he's a former president. He MUST be a good guy. You can't speak ill of him after he's dead.</SARCASM>

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Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #6
To say anyone has an execution "coming" for improper conduct in a trial is ludicrously ignorant and shows you do not understand the justice system at all.

For his crimes, Hussein deserved a harsh penalty (you know where I stand on the death penalty, however). You won't see me lament him, even though his execution was a pointless and vindictive act and the very existence of capital punishment a travesty that should have been eradicated half a century ago.

However, what really pisses me off is the self-righteousness gloating. Ding dong, the dictator is dead. Mission accomplished, the war in Iraq was a victory and totally worth it, take that you anti-war anti-Americans.

Iraqi civilian casualties: On the order of 600,000.
American troop casualties: Over 3,000.
Foreign civil contractors and reporters: No precise number but more than the troops.
Current status in Iraq: Civil war and chaos mixed with religious extremism.

Executed dictators: 1.

IMAGE(http://ermarian.net/images/politics/zomg_bush.png)

On the other hand, I suppose there is a silver lining. Objectives:

1. Get rid of Iraq's WMD - check, they don't exist.
2. Bring Hussein to justice - check, he's dead.
3. Liberate Iraqi people - ...

Whoops. But hey, two out of three ain't so bad. And the oil is safe.

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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There were enough people that spoke ill of Ford while he was alive. Especially when he pardoned Nixon. Of course in hindsight it looks like the right thing to do and that he was a great president.

When you compare Ford to "cut and run" Reagan and "stay the course" W. Bush, he looks even better since he didn't back down before terrorists in Lebanon encouragiing the whole mess we have today or get us into an unnecessary war when he had a clear mandate.

Saddam Hussein showed that illegal acts by a leader will get punished. Now we have to see whether other countries will punish their current leaders for crimes.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #8
I think the question of whether or not killing him gains us anything is pointless. Killing rarely gains you anything. The reason he had to die was for the touble he would have caused if he'd kept on living. Being an eye for an eye kind of emperor myself, I'm only sorry we couldn't have killed him a few tens of thousands of times over.

I'll miss Gerald Ford. He was the only President of the United States ever to not be elected at all. He was a total screw up but eh, not like the guy asked to be president. He was funny, and his death marks the end of an era. It's only unfortunate that that era isn't the Era of Retarded Presidents.

You guys forgot James Brown.

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Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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The Era of Bad Feelings, maybe.

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
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I voted no, and for my reasons you just have to read Aran's post.

The death penalty is wrong, end of.

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Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Agent
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This is a tough question for, obviously, many reasons. I voted yes to the poll, but there are two main considerations in my mind: whether hanging was a just punishment for Saddam, and whether his death will bring an overall benefit to the situation in Iraq and in the world.

Being a firm supporter of capital punishment, I believe that Saddam deserved the death penalty for his crimes. I am not well versed on exactly how much cruelty, nor how much good, he has done. However, I do believe that if the leader of a extralegal militia in Iraq ordered the massacre of 148 civilians, he would be hanged. Dictators are not above the law, and that is a fundamental principle of just government. He did go through the court system and was punished in accordance with Iraqi law.

Nevertheless, all of this is sure to have ramifications. It is rarely laudable as a person, or country, claiming moral superiority to cheer for an intentional murder. The Sunnis will be violent and disruptive in protest, and the situation will ferment further and further. Hopefully there will not be an organized attack on the Shiites or the nascent Iraqi government, but that is always unpredictable.

As a final note, I recognize that many world powers, and of course individuals as well, view the death penalty as an obsolete, barbaric practice. To them his execution would be a sign of a lack of progress in modernizing Iraq. I would have agreed with life imprisonment of Saddam simply because he is so old. But again I reiterate that if I stepped into a building and shot 148 people, thousands would be screaming for my execution.

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Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
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I think overall it doesn't really matter. It will create a brief surge in violence. It also give one less thing for the remanets of the Bath party to rally behind. Those that support he war still support he war and those who don't support the war still don't support the war.In the end I don't think it matters much becuase the Arabs they are far more concerned with vengance then closeure or justice.

[ Saturday, December 30, 2006 09:05: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #13
No. I'm not viewing this from the emotional aspects, though, but from the political ramifications of such an ill-considered deed. By executing him, he was effectively made a martyr. And that won't be good for anyone involved in this travesty of a war.

And HANGING?!? This isn't the old west, for god's sake, nor is it Texas! There are more humane ways to execute someone. But no. Bush 'has ta string em up' just to get his point across. Which by the way, I'm still not sure what his point is. And to film the thing and show it on national television... Well, maybe there's a bright side to the lack of electricity in Iraq.

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
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quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

There were enough people that spoke ill of Ford while he was alive. Especially when he pardoned Nixon. Of course in hindsight it looks like the right thing to do and that he was a great president.
It wasn't the right thing to do. It was wrong then and it's wrong now and just because the liberal elite in the 80s was glad they never had to deal with Nixon in the dock doesn't make it right to prevent him from receiving the criminal trial he deserved.

quote:
[b]When you compare Ford to "cut and run" Reagan and "stay the course" W. Bush, he looks even better since he didn't back down before terrorists in Lebanon encouragiing the whole mess we have today or get us into an unnecessary war when he had a clear mandate.
[/b]
Ford's and Kissinger gave Suharto, premier of Indonesia whose sole ally was the United States, the green light to invade and attempt to completely depopulate East Timor.

Ford has more blood on his hands than George W. Bush, and that takes some doing.

quote:
Saddam Hussein showed that illegal acts by a leader will get punished. Now we have to see whether other countries will punish their current leaders for crimes.
Sure will, if we bomb the hell out of them, put 2% of their population to the sword, and blame their former leaders for all of it.

Democracy on the march.

At the end of the day, Saddam Hussein deserved to be incarcerated permanently; he was a danger to the world. However, he was not, and this is important, tried in his capacity as leader of Iraq.

If he had been, he would have been charged for different crimes, like the gassing of the Kurds or whatever else everyone likes to go on about. What he was tried for was massacring a village for producing someone who took a shot at him. That's a ridiculous and self-centered act, and can be distinguished from the standard behavior of statesmanship.

And Saddam Hussein's execution means nothing. Everyone in Iraq wanted him gone, because they labor under the delusion it means we're going to leave them to their own business. Once it sinks in it doesn't, there'll be a couple of hardliners who treat him as a martyr, but only a couple.

For the most part, business will continue as usual in Iraq. And that's the most horrible thing that could happen there.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #15
Originally by Nioca:

quote:
And HANGING?!? This isn't the old west, for god's sake, nor is it Texas! There are more humane ways to execute someone. But no. Bush 'has ta string em up' just to get his point across. Which by the way, I'm still not sure what his point is.
No, but it is the Middle East. Hanging is an acceptable method of execution there.

If done right, hanging is about as humane as anything else out there--your neck is broken and that's that. A hanging can go wrong, but so can lethal injections and the electric chair.

Wikipedia article on hanging

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #16
A martyr? For who? He wasn't exactly the most popular guy around, and no friend to Osama bin Laden either.

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Agent
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I oppose the death penalty in general. I have no especial sorrow in seeing the end of Saddam Hussain, who was a thoroughly nasty man, nevertheless I cannot support any instance of judicial killing. The only time I would condone killing is to save life -- and execution of prisoners does not generally qualify.

I completely agree with Aran about the gloating. The newspaper The Sun was particularly nauseating today.

Edit: The media coverage in the Middle East seems to indicate that Saddam has indeed become a martyr. For example Libya has declared three days of national mourning. Saddam was a hero to many Palestinians.

[ Saturday, December 30, 2006 12:51: Message edited by: Micawber. ]

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Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
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Everyone dies.

Death is not the worst thing that can happen to you by far. Death by hanging, as it was conducted, is a fast, and merciful end to a man who showed little mercy to his myriad victims. To have your own fear of harm put to a prompt end is more merciful than living for decades in fear under the capricious and aribitrary rule of a man who might have you and yours executed on a whim.

I'd like to see those who grievously wound and abuse others with their authority spend the rest of their lives laboring hard under custody to make reparations to those harmed. A life of slave labor funding the families of your victims for the rest of your life would be a lot more daunting to me than knowing once my reign is over, someone will give me a swift, merciful death. Saddam and his sons delighted in putting people to slow, torturous death or subjecting them to VX gassing. He was treated infinitely more merciful than his sadistic family afforded those under his heel.

Saddam was a petty tyrant who will soon be all but forgotten in the bigger scope of history. The 20th century was drenched in doomed dictatorships. Let's hope, despite our political and religious differences across the globe, that planet earth heads in some viable new directions for the 21st century. We're going to need all the help we can get.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
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I might be worried about makeing him a matyr if the extriemst didn't already have so many. If George W Bush step on the small toe of my left foot the extriemst would make it into a matyr. The would have made him a matyr regardless.

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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Saddam Hussein may have committed far greater crimes than most, but his death seems like it still doesn't really help. Deterrence? I don't think that's going to work on would-be dictators. Closure? Maybe, but I'm afraid that responding to crimes with death is really not the right message for Iraq's volatility right now.

I don't think execution is ever a good solution, but in this case it was more unhelpful than it usually is.

—Alorael, who thinks not executing Saddam would have been a far more significant gesture than executing him. It probably wasn't politically acceptable, but it would have been the most moral thing to do.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Agent
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Lord Safey, I think you may be making too extreme of a statement about these extremists and their idolatry. However, I also think that some people will make Saddam Hussein a martyr not because they loved his rule but rather because they will taut his execution as an injustice instigated by the aggressive US. Hussein did keep up a strong external image up until the end, though, and as despicable as that may be, I could imagine it inspiring some.

Hanging is not the worst way to be executed. The electric chair was often ridiculously painful, and an improperly administered lethal injection could cause pain similar to rubbing salt into a wound that flows into the heart. Sometimes hanging was quick and relatively painless, and sometimes it was not. Lethal injection would be viewed as more humane, but the issue at hand is whether it was right to execute him at all.

Also, I think hanging is still permissible in one or two US states if the death row prisoner asks for it. Let me check...

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Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Shaper
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Hanging is still an optional form of execution in Delaware and right here in Washington State. No one's used it for a decade though.

To add a point to my previous post, what makes me cringe is to see prisoners housed and fed and maintained for the rest of their existence and never have to give anything back or do anything to make any kind of reparations. And we all pay for them to just hang out for the rest of their lives.

Put them to work. Teach them the concept of responsibility for their actions by making them have to work at something to make some kind of recompense and to fund their continued existence...like most of the rest of us have to do.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
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Are you really unaware of how heavily the US economy already relies on prison labour? Just because the media wants you to believe that every prisoner sits around in a jacuzzi all day, doesn't make it so.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Nemesis:

quote:
Originally written by Cryptozoology:

How come it's okay to speak ill of the dead when it's Saddam but not when it's Gerald Ford?
<SARCASM>Oh, because he's a former president. He MUST be a good guy. You can't speak ill of him after he's dead.</SARCASM>

I seem to recall that Mr. Ford fell down flights of stairs a lot.

Anyway.

There's this interesting image...
IMAGE(http://www.heartheissues.com/images/frequencyperchannel.gif)

...which illustrates the data taken from a survey that asked the audiences of different media outlets about their beliefs regarding the Iraq war. Three questions were asked:

1) Is it your impression that the US has or has not found clear evidence in Iraq that Saddam Hussein was working closely with the al Qaeda terrorist organization?
2) Since the war with Iraq ended, is it your impression that the US has or has not found Iraqi weapons of mass destruction?
3) Thinking about how all the people in the world feel aobut the US having gone to war with Iraq, do you think the majority of people favor the US having gone to war?

The point was, of course, that in reality there are no al-Qaeda links, the US has found no WMDs, and majority world opinion is against the war. The funny thing is that the audiences of more Conservative media outlets (e.g. Fox) had far more misconceptions about the war than did the audiences of more Liberal media outlets (e.g. NPR), with the number of misconceptions decreasing as the outlet in focus got more Liberal in bias. Kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

However, for the record, the Bush administration technically had nothing to do with Saddam's sentence: it was made by an Iraqi judge in an Iraqi court. In fact, Bush was apparently sound asleep here in the US when Saddam was executed. So as much as we'd all like to blame him, we can't.

I'll just say, in almost the words of his father, George H. W. Bush, "Read my lips: no new executions."

Viva Jimmy Brown, a man who truly felt good. He knew that he would.

[ Saturday, December 30, 2006 16:31: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ]

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