Saddam Hussein's Execution
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 09:20
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I do not care whether Saddam thinks himself an evil person. The fact that he feels justified means nothing. It does not excuse him from punishment for acts that society decides to be evil. If the reasons he gives do not stand strong by themselves on an ethical basis, then let them fall. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 11:39
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quote:Seconded. It doesn't matter if he thought what he did was right. As someone already pointed out, so did Hitler (allegedly). It could be argued that it's just a point of view, in which case nobody's right or wrong, but I think a line between good and evil has to be drawn somewhere. -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 15:12
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quote:Which society? The judges presiding over his trial were selected by the Coalition Provisional Authority. Is any society in the world now allowed to punish any member of any other society? (And that's before we even get to the fact that several of his defence lawyers were assassinated. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that he got anything more than a show trial.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, January 7 2007 18:56
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quote:He was easier to find. It's like the drunk looking for his keys by a lamp post because the light is better when he dropped them in the dark. The war in Iraq took precedence over Afghanistan since it was in easier terrain to execute and had oil. Bin Laden took advantage of the US reliance on technology to have the troops chase after his satellite phone while he went another way. Considering the level of medical care that he needs it shows that the hunt is badly mismanaged. He's probably hiding just over the border in Pakistan where the US can't look without angering a needed ally. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Monday, January 8 2007 16:28
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Saddam's execution makes me feel rather unsettled. I think it's obvious to any spectator that the trial wasn't fair and impartial. I'd in fact argue that it was a ridiculous farce, especially given that Saddam's worst enemies. This observation has been voiced by various Humanitarian organizations. I guess that's what happens when Saddam's worst enemies (the Shia and Kurds) pull the strings. It's the equivalent of a Democrat only jury passing judgement on Bush. Every man deserves his day in court. Executing someone after a show trial is a perversion of democracy. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Monday, January 8 2007 19:18
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Supposing a "fair" trial were conducted, would its end really be all that different? -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, January 8 2007 19:22
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quote:That's not the point. Denying a fair trial to people if you're already sure they're guilty defeats the purpose of the judicial system. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Monday, January 8 2007 19:55
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So it fails on principle. Boo hoo. The definition of the so-called society that gets to preside over a mock trial is simply the one in power. Why waste time on the means of justice when the ends are going to be the same? Too bad Saddam had not been a little younger so that his execution wouldn't seem so cowardly and lowly. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, January 8 2007 20:32
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In the end, it all comes down to the Golden Rule: whoever has the gold, makes the rules. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, January 8 2007 21:18
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I'm more inclined to go with - power comes out of the barrel of a gun. After all we are no longer the richest country being in debt to so much of the world, but we can enforce our will using our military. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, January 8 2007 21:30
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Armies cost gold, my dear Randomizer. Just because we don't have the money doesn't mean we're goine to stop spending it. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Monday, January 8 2007 22:24
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The debate about whether wealth or firepower is the true source of power is pretty circular. Wealth is the goal and arms are the means of either attaining or retaining it. I do not see why anybody seeking power would want to purchase a gun if he could not use it to make an overall profit. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, January 8 2007 22:33
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Wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia use their money to buy off armed enemies. Then there are those like Iran that use their money to build up arms and you know eventually they will be used. With enough firepower you can be come suddenly wealthy with your weaker neighbors wealth. Just ask Lebanon after Syria decided to help out during Gulf War I or most of Europe during the last 1000 years. After all while you need some money to raise an army, it's loot that keeps it going. Hiring mercenaries to protect a wealthy country is never a good idea. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 13:01
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Garrison: quote:I'll ignore your condescending sarcasm, and merely point out that one should expect a fair trial for Saddam, because the Allies promised that they were going to liberate the Iraqi people, and promote democracy. Saddam was subjected to a farce of a trial which was undemocratic. It appears that the Americans (once again) have failed in their stated goals. Why am I not surprised? Added to which, you make the assumption that if Saddam had have been given 'real' justice, the outcome would have been the same. Quite simply, that conjecture is unfounded. Many 'criminals' who have been assumed guilty by the media, were later exonerated by the court (Lindy Chamberlain comes to mind). I'm no fan of Saddam, but I give credit where credit is due. I congratulate him for his defiance shown both in the court, and at the execution. He did not bring contempt on the court proceedings. The court brought contempt upon itself. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 14:36
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Sometimes justice isn't what is best. I don't believe that we should cheer over Saddam's death and unfair trial, but to be sincere I have to argue both sides of the argument, since that is basically what is going on in my head. I would settle for nothing less than life imprisonment because I can guarantee you that Saddam will plan something troublesome the moment he goes free. The death penalty was not strictly necessary, but to many it gave a powerful sense of closure to his oppressive rule. He did a great number of things to strengthen and modernize Iraq, like setting up the framework of the court system in which he was tried for instance. I tend to think that his judges acted on behalf of the nascent government, and wanted to deal a decisive blow against the head of the government that it had replaced. Though it may cause violence, it is still a strong act in my book. If justice is sugar, then vengeance is Ace K. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 15:27
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Garrison: quote:OK, if you genuinely feel that justice is secondary in some circumstances, fair enough. But the next time Iraqi insurgents execute American P.O.W's without trial, don't come crying to me. quote:You're quite the humanitarian! quote:So you don't think Saddam should be punished for his supposed crimes against humanity, but because he's a thorn in the side of America and/or the current puppet government in Iraq. Interesting. quote:You're right. Justice, and the right to a fair trial, are privileges that are only deserved by patriotic Americans. They should not extend to anyone else, especially when mobs and rival factions want 'revenge'. Thank God Americans like you don't rule the world, or we'd have internment camps where 'threats' to America are held without trial, and are systematically tortured. Oh, wait... -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 19:36
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Everyone deserves justice, but we live in an imperfect world. You took my statement about why Saddam should have been given at least a life sentence out of context. He should be found guilty for crimes he had already committed against humanity, not against crimes we think he will commit. It was just an argument for keeping him away from his connections. Vengeance is perhaps sweeter than justice for those inflicting it, but it necessarily entails a metallic, unpleasant aftertaste. If I were the leader of America, I would rule with exactly as much cruelty as necessary. It really would not be as bad as you would seem to think from reading a few of my previous posts. My principles concerning the ethics of torture and such are firmly humanitarian, but exigencies disallow me I from saying that I would adhere to them unwaveringly. That is a trait of a strong leader. :cool: :D -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 21:29
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Bah, what good are ethics and morals when they keep us from killing people who deserve death? But Tullegolar, due proccess and blah blah blah... Fine, whatever, but if I were in charge, I would have let security around Saddam go lax. Some nut would have stabbed the creep eventually, some enraged Iraq citizen looking for vengence. Then America could claim to having no part in his death, and we could say that justice was served by his own people. If only... -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, January 9 2007 22:11
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quote:There would've been a mile-long line. I agree with this one, really. Don't protect the high-profile deranged lunatics... just make sure they stay in one place. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 12:29
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quote:I agree that the observance of perceived ethics should not interfere with a just execution, but to disregard due process is past the line. You try being the victim of an unfair law and then tell me that due process is unduly cumbersome. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 34
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 12:49
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But, I mean, he got 100% percent of the popular vote in the Presidential election and everything! :P [ Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:49: Message edited by: Robinator is a Beefcake ] -------------------- Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. 'Spiderweb Software' anagrammmed: 'Word-bereft A**wipe' Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 17:19
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quote:Well, if the law itself is unfair, due process alone won't prevent it from doing harm. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 21:51
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Substantive due process, Thuryl. It is the fundamental principle behind the power of the 14th amendment. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 22:26
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The law is whatever the courts you have to deal with decide it is. When you run out appeals you're stuck with the decision unless you can get the government to change it. The system sounds good on paper, but we have to deal with reality. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, January 10 2007 22:35
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My point exactly. Hmm, that was a short post. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |