Kissing a girl
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, October 12 2005 08:48
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The salmonator said the "R" word. My interest is spirituality, though many don't distinguish between religion and spirituality. But's that not important. Don't you think there's room here to talk about kissing and metaphysics? How about the metaphysics of kissing? Talk of kissing would be great, except there hasn't been any of that for days now. And come to think of it, it's been a bit too long since I did any of it myself, or I wouldn't be spending so much of my free time typing hammering the keyboard here lately. Jewels...I don't really want to challenge your faith. If one is seeking to expand her viewpoint of what is in Scriptures and what is possible, then it's fun to talk about. But I have never once found it useful to try to convince someone who is comfortable in her faith that there might be more or other to it. I love trying to expand thinking and to challenge assumptions, because I don't see any danger in it (more the opposite). You're just fine, so please don't let me trouble you further, and do forgive me if my post last night caused any offense to you. P.S. -Jewels, I tried to send you a reply message, but it is blocked. [ Wednesday, October 12, 2005 17:41: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Wednesday, October 12 2005 12:40
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*scratches head* It shouldn't be... I'll look into it. And quit telling me you don't want to offend. I already said it didn't. I find it offensive you didn't listen to me. :P j/k Edit: I checked my profile and it says it's enabled. And I don't have anyone on my ignore list so I don't know what's up. Maybe an e-mail instead? Edit2: There I even added you to my buddy list. [ Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:52: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 12 2005 13:09
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Gizmo, how many PMs do you already have stored? Your inbox might be full. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, October 12 2005 18:36
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re. Alex: I want to say the usual words, that that's certainly not what I meant, but I have to be honest: it is. You are enslaving yourself to your religion. And that's wrong. Jesus never asked you to torture yourself; you're forcing yourself, outside any religious necessity, to do something beyond the basic pale of the human experience. Abandoning your sexuality to focus on religion makes as little sense as abandoning your church to focus on sex. Has it occurred to you that neither of these are the preferable option here? That it's possible to be a homosexual and a good Christian at the same time? (And I don't know about couching it in terms of 'overcoming' homosexuality - seems to be begging the question a little, doesn't it?) [ Wednesday, October 12, 2005 18:39: Message edited by: Belisarius ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Thursday, October 13 2005 05:22
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quote:Nope, I have none stored except the one I sent him. quote:Actually he did. Matthew 5:29-30 (the words of Jesus) "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." We are called to avoid sin at any cost. As to whether Homosexuality is sin, that is between each individual and God. Speaking for myself and getting back to topic it would be wrong for me to kiss another girl even though I'd probably enjoy doing so. [ Thursday, October 13, 2005 05:24: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Thursday, October 13 2005 06:55
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To begin: As I said at the very begining, my church considers the homosexual act a sin. As far as my church is concerned I have committed no sin. -------------------------------------- Belisarius, you haven't listened to what I said. You did exactly as I predicted some one would do. So much so I even wonder if you are doing it because I predicted it. I have tried to explain and now I will spell it out. I am not blindly trying to justify my religion's viewpoint. I have tried to explain, knowing there would be those like you who would refuse to accept it, that it is possible for some one to be clear-thinking and rational-minded and still follow a religion. I am a rational person. I love being a rational person. I tell you with all possible gravity and solemnity that I would leave my church before I would ever consider mindlessly following dictates that go against calm, clear reason. This is an intensely important decision in my life. I have researched it, I have talked to people inside and outside of my church, and, above all, I have thought about it extensively every single day for the last two years. I continue to do all three and have no intention of stopping. I have heard arguments like yours before. I have considered them honestly and as objectively as possible. I now consider your personal argument as honestly and objectively as I can. I have thought about this issue from more angles than you can possibly know. I sincerely beleive, from the things I've found, learned, and determined, that I would come to the same decision irregardless of religion or lack thereof. To conclude: Understand that I am not simply dismissing your, or anyone's, argument out of hand. I do not, nor do I ever intend to, blindly accept anything my religion, you, or anyone else has to say. Everyone and everything is given its chance to make its case in my mind. -------------------- Take the Personality Test! INTJ 100% 75% 100% 44% Huzzah for the Masterminds! www.Keirsey.com for personality information. The Sloganizer! "Swing your Archmage Alex." Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, October 13 2005 07:24
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quote:Have you spoken personally with anyone that has attempted (successfully or not) what you are proposing? That seems to be the issue here, rather than the theoretical possibilities of "conversion." Are there actually ways for you to do that, or is stuff like this still operating in a vacuum? *this message sponsored by talk radio* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Thursday, October 13 2005 08:27
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As a matter of fact, yes. I have talked to several men (some of whom have spent years to decades fully embracing the homosexual lifestyle) who have progressed to the point that they have had as genuine, or more genuine, feeling for women as they ever have for men and are now honestly, happily married. -------------------- Take the Personality Test! INTJ 100% 75% 100% 44% Huzzah for the Masterminds! www.Keirsey.com for personality information. The Sloganizer! "Swing your Archmage Alex." Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Trademark
Member # 6397
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written Saturday, October 15 2005 21:22
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  Posts: 24 | Registered: Saturday, October 15 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
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written Sunday, October 16 2005 14:34
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I don't get it. -------------------- "Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending" Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5886
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written Sunday, October 16 2005 14:43
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Stuffed Cow: "Yay! At least I know I am not the only useless one here. : )" -------------------- My friend! Do not fear the flames of the demonic legion! Let the flames incinerate your weakness, strip away all neuroses, and transform you into a newly-forged brazen GOD! Then you will show the subhuman supplicants the true meaning of domination and the proper use of POWER! --Daemon Pavidum Posts: 52 | Registered: Friday, June 3 2005 07:00 |
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Trademark
Member # 6397
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written Sunday, October 16 2005 15:02
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This bait is left for Alex. Let him be the one to take it. Posts: 24 | Registered: Saturday, October 15 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Monday, October 17 2005 03:36
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Nice work, kids. Can't remember if I posted in this topic before and since when did I have the patience to check. Nonetheless, happy extremely belated birthday, Miss Marlenny. Speaking as someone with gay and bisexual friends of both genders, I don't really see a problem with it. It's how they are and whether a religion wants to tell them that's wrong or not, it shouldn't stand in the way of who they are. It's not morally wrong in society's eyes, so why can't Catholicism get with the times? -------------------- Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5389
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written Monday, October 17 2005 03:42
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I forgot to do this! I apologize!!! Marlenny, happy birthday. May your next one as fun as you want. -------------------- Reports of my demise are extremely accurate. And I AM the clone Posts: 102 | Registered: Wednesday, January 12 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, October 17 2005 04:03
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quote:Ah, but that's the whole repugnancy of Alex' argument. See, if he can change himself to become heterosexual and is happier afterwards, then he proves that homosexuals are living inferior, subnormal lives. The implication is obvious- if society were to hold this value, secular "ministries" to homosexuals would be able to begin, ushering in a new age of internal cultural imperialism. Not that he'll succeed because of the rampant cultural liberals who consider all forms of sexiness equally modern, but the notion is still abhorrent. But, see, I wouldn't be half as miffed with this guy if he didn't spend at LEAST half of every post qualifying almost every point he made with complementing his own intelligence. Self-aggrandizement is not a valid argument form, and makes for patently offensive non-apologetics. By the way! Is it a coincidence that Alex is both a homophobe (or should I say autophobe?) and an adherent (as his signature would suggest) to jung? If that's the case, the only case I could make to him for homosexuality depends on how much he can still hate women. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Monday, October 17 2005 06:02
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First, I haven't actually read anything by Jung. My passion for temperament and personality is based upon the work of Dr. Keirsey, which is, admittedly, partially based upon a small part of a facet Jung's work, but is also largely based upon the work of Hippocrates and Paracelsus, among others. Second, it is not, nor has it ever been, my intention to try to alter your, society's, or anyone else's viewpoint. I have stated how I feel, I have explained why I feel that way, I have attempted to show that I have tried very hard to determine how I feel and not just parrot some one else's empty ideology. The only motivation I have ever had in this matter is to try to figure out what seems right to me and will bring me personal happiness. Lastly, if my comments came across to you as "complimenting my own intelligence" that is how you chose to take them, not how I intended them. My only intention was to try to show that I was not simply accepting the viewpoint offered me, and that I had tried to give the matter objective thought and research. However, it was, perhaps, done a bit overzealously and I can understand why you might have come the conclusion you did. The point, however, is that you can either accept that what I say I was trying to communicate actually is what I was trying to communicate or you can, once again, clearly display your own arrogance in your endless assumptions of everyone else motivations and insulting declarations of other's mindlessness. If you disagree, post your argument. Thus far you have said nothing of your own point of view or explained why you feel that way, all you have done is make assumptive accusations and shown that you have no respect for opinions that differ from your own. -------------------- Take the Personality Test! INTJ 100% 75% 100% 44% Huzzah for the Masterminds! www.Keirsey.com for personality information. The Sloganizer! "Swing your Archmage Alex." Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, October 17 2005 17:06
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*flexes muscles* Time to get to work. "First, I haven't actually read anything by Jung. My passion for temperament and personality is based upon the work of Dr. Keirsey, which is, admittedly, partially based upon a small part of a facet Jung's work, but is also largely based upon the work of Hippocrates and Paracelsus, among others." Fair enough. "Second, it is not, nor has it ever been, my intention to try to alter your, society's, or anyone else's viewpoint. I have stated how I feel, I have explained why I feel that way, I have attempted to show that I have tried very hard to determine how I feel and not just parrot some one else's empty ideology." Cripes, you wanna talk about saying nothing? Here's a thought: Apologetics are nothing more than socially acceptable polemics. In other words, you may not intend to say anything, but no amount of politesse in the world will change the implications of what you say. If I were to, for instance, explain how I *genuinely feel* about woman's role being in the kitchen, the result of my words is as clear as day. "Lastly, if my comments came across to you as "complimenting my own intelligence" that is how you chose to take them, not how I intended them." So what? "My only intention was to try to show that I was not simply accepting the viewpoint offered me, and that I had tried to give the matter objective thought and research. However, it was, perhaps, done a bit overzealously and I can understand why you might have come the conclusion you did." A bit overzealous. Just as an exercise... "I am a rational person." "I trust in my abilities to think, reason, and come to clear, logical conclusions." "I am not a blind follower." "I have thought about this, and analyzed it, and considered it in relation to my own feelings and situation" "I have considered the pros and cons of both options." "I'm an open-mined person" "I am also a supremely rational person" "I am a rational person." "I love being a rational person." These are just the compliments you give to yourself, nevermind the generalizations you make for sake of apologetics. (As I stated earlier, that you are "not arguing anything" does not relieve you of any burdens of proof.) A bit overzealous. Here's some advice: If you are a rational individual, you don't need to tell us this in every post you make. You just don't. "The point, however, is that you can either accept that what I say I was trying to communicate actually is what I was trying to communicate or you can, once again, clearly display your own arrogance in your endless assumptions of everyone else motivations and insulting declarations of other's mindlessness." And what are compliments to one's self, without insults to other people? Or, in other words: I don't give a damn how noble your motives are. Anyone can do the worst things in the world with the best motives in mind, and the worst people in the world are those who sincerely believe they are the best. All this paragraph says is "I'm arrogant and mean". That's not an argument, that's ad hominem. "Thus far you have said nothing of your own point of view or explained why you feel that way" 1. Scroll up. 2. Why I feel that way? Are you telling me to be psychologically introverted, and if so, what the hell kind of mandate is that? "all you have done is make assumptive accusations" You want "logic"? Fine, I'll translate this one for you by summing up your premises with the other premises I introduced in the post above. Your premises: 1. Homosexuals can be "converted" 2. Homosexuals are more happy as heterosexuals My premises: 3. People do not like gays (This one REALLY doesn't need to be proven, Mr. Crow.) My conclusions: 4. Conversion of homosexuality is then viewed as being "charitable" (Which is to say, (1•2)=>4 ) 5. Homosexuals will be looked down upon (Which is to say, (2•3)=>5) 6. Homosexuality is a choice (Which is to say, 1 iff 6) 7. Homosexuals will be either more forcefully converted by society or looked down upon more than previously for the lifestyles they "adapt" (Which is to say, 6v4) In other words, you are spitting in the face of homosexuals by claiming the moral high road of heterosexuality. Do you live in a magical fairyland where gays don't experience discrimination and feel intense pressures to conform to boob-oggling? For someone who is trying to preserve "apologetics", you sure are pushing a set of statements that glorifies the easy and socially acceptible way out for an underspoken contingent of human beings. "you have no respect for opinions that differ from your own." I respect arguments I disagree with a hell of a lot more than I respect aggrandizement and bigotry. PS- I could get into the "science" you refer to (which you took your damned time in citing), but that would be gratifying the notion that a non-lethal has negative merits, which I will not allow. Anyone with a bias can make a study- for instance, there were studies made in the late 80s and early 90s that "proved" how much less intelligent african-americans were. If you're a man of faith, let's deal with this exclusively on a moral level. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, October 17 2005 19:46
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Alex, do yourself a favour and don't bother responding. You've made every effort to be reasonable, and you aren't obligated to engage in debate with someone who isn't prepared to do the same. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 08:29
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quote:FYT [ Tuesday, October 18, 2005 08:36: Message edited by: King Evil ] -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5585
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 12:21
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I don't get it. What you seem to be saying is that Alex preferring heterosexuality would lead people to think that all homosexuals would prefer heterosexuality. However, I don't see this happening among any but the incredibly stupid. If a blond person died their hair because they thought they would be happier with brown hair, no one would leap to the conclusion that all blonds should have their hair died. [ Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:22: Message edited by: Error ] -------------------- Important Information about Stuff Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 12:51
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Yeah, but apart from tongue-in-cheek jokes about intelligence, blondes aren't a particularly maligned demographic. Gays, on the other hand, are *already* spat on. Or, to quantify my statement by example- how many gays are "heavily encouraged" to persue heterosexual lifestyles just to see whether or not they "prefer it"? Okay, so Alex' rhetoric on homosexuality being an inferior way of living isn't new, but it's still repugnant. The more people who buy this crap, the more people will adopt particularly indignified attitudes to people who don't chose to better themselves. The similarity between this rhetoric and that about the disenfranchised should be self-evident: Just as poor people are expected to try to contribue to society despite the futility of it, so too are homosexuals persuaded to convert to hetero¢hri$ti-hannity, despite the fact that many would essentially be lying to themselves and conforming to social standards from the pressure. If Alex were to just say, "I'm doing this because my religion says so and I have faith in it" or "I'm doing this because social stigma is utterly insufferable", I would express ambivalence and pity respectively. This half-assed attempt to introduce logic to the formula is what incenses me. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 13:06
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Is it at all possible that a person could come to a reasonable, logical conclusion that differs from yours? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 14:58
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...if I had a billion dollars for each time a leftist was allowed so generous an asscover, I'd be just as poor as I started. That is too crappy an excuse to permit. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 18:58
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I'm a bit slow. Could you explain to me where the flaw is in the argument that two reasonable people can come to different conclusions about a given topic? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 19:08
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I'm saying that your argument, irrespective of its validity, is only an excuse a conservative can use. Leftists cannot use this reasoning ever. I should, by all means, treat you no more kindly. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |