Kissing a girl
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 19:14
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quote:QFT. I used the (basically) same argument today at lunch. Then I spilled Gatorade on my friend. -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 20:11
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I'm still slow. Why are leftists not allowed to use reasonable arguments, and why does this make said arguments invalid? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 20:33
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I literally don't know if you're trying to lead me in circles, or if you really are that dense. Like, I genuinely haven't the foggiest idea at this point. To clarify: What you originally proposed (after your Kel-like remark of "flee!")-- that two people can have opposing beliefs that are logical -- is not a copout that leftists can use in an argument. It works for conservatives and pundits of all flavors, but a leftist cannot hope of ending a conversation with such cowardice. It's not allowed. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 20:39
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I still don't get why leftists supposedly "aren't allowed" to use such arguments. Seriously. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 20:47
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That's not so much a provable theory, so much as it's an observable fact. For instance, if you are so inclined: Say some comparatively "far-out" leftist idea. Then, watch other people argue against it. Then, use your excuse. One of two things will happen: 1. People will continue the argument regardless 2. People will dismiss you as having "lost" and mock you (usually in your face) -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 20:52
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I think you missed my point. I wasn't trying to end the discussion with a "agree to disagree" line, I was pointing out that just because Alex disagrees with you does not make his view a half-assed attempt at logic. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3870
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 22:19
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An agree-to-disagree argument is never founded in logic. There are few (if any?) areas where it is possible for two opposing beliefs to be both logically derived. In most areas, in fact, it is impossible for a single idea to be logically derived. On what end do you open a boiled egg? The argument is less an appeal to reason than an attempt to gracefully withdraw from the argument without submitting to your opponent's opinion. It indicates that the idea is less important than avoiding conflict. If the opponent's reaction to this withdrawal is a continued attack or an assumption that you have been convinced (or admitted defeat), then they are more interested in their idea than in peaceful coexistence. Some debaters, however, employ this as a feint: Claiming such a withdrawal and then continuing the argument or restarting it at a later time might be called a hit-and-run tactic and is indeed cowardly. -------------------- "Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it." ---Thomas Paine Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 03:19
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Mmm. TM and Ashy-boy at it, again, with a slice of SD, on the side. Just like the good ole days. Can't we all.... just get along? :P -------------------- Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3870
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 03:26
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quote:That is what I was hinting at in the previous post. :) -------------------- "Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it." ---Thomas Paine Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 05:57
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Claiming that both sides are being illogical won't do a very good job of making them get along, I suspect. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 10:31
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Yeah, they'll be united only in opposition to you, which negates your attempt at conflict resolution (if such it was). Getting back to the subject in hand (Alex's views on homosexuality) I would say that TM has the best of it. However much he dresses it up, Alex has confessedly made a value judgement: "I'm choosing the heterosexual lifestyle because I think it's better than the homosexual one." This is somewhat offensive to other gays. -------------------- Everything I know about the Avernum Trilogy: [ A1 | A2 | A3 ] Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 11:16
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Or at least it may be offensive to some gay people. It's definitely a decision in keeping with the values of his society in Utah. I wonder, were he born in Massachusetts instead or raised Unitarian, if he would arrive at the same conclusion? I believe that the answer would be no. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 15:24
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quote:Correction, Alex chooses it because that's what feels right to him. I can see where someone would get offended, but please. You can't get sentimental just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view. Everyone is different and think differently. Now, I don't want to get involve in this whole thing, because I like both Alex and TM, and it's just plain stupid since neither is going to change their point of view. Besides, as far as I know, Alex does not have anything against Homosexuality or TM's view on the subject. He is just doing what feels right to him. Alex is not telling others that trying to change to Heterosexuality is the right thing to do, but that it is the right thing for him at this time. That's his decision and we should respect it. It is hard enough for him, so he doesn't need us to come here and make it harder. Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 17:09
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Micawber - You're saying it's wrong for Alex to want to be heterosexual because it might offend gays who don't want to change? Are you serious? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 17:21
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The problem is not so much with what he wants as with explaining what he wants to others. If a decision really is a purely personal one, it doesn't need to be publicised. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 17:27
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Notice that he did so only on my request. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 17:39
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I missed the part where Alex said that homosexuality is better. His assertions were that he is rational, which struck me as perfectly appropriate (if futile) given the attitudes here, that homosexuality is a non-intrinsic psychological condition (I have seen more convincing evidence agains than for this), and that there is solid documentation of successful conversions from homosexuality to heterosexuality (again, all reputable evidence I have seen points to the contrary). Aside from disagreement on evidence, I don't see anything wrong with Alex's position. He didn't say that being heterosexual is better, or that everyone should switch. The most he said is that everyone can; doing so is optional and, in light of his religoius faith, he would like to do so. I think the odds are stacked against him more than he believes, but that's his problem, not mine, and he's not forcing it on anyone else. —Alorael, who wishes Alex all the best with his self-improvement even if he personally does not think he'll follow suit. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 18:18
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quote:Did you note how relieved Alex felt just to be able to talk—for the first time to anyone—about something that was weighing heavily on his heart? We shouldn't sweep aside the pure therapeutic value of being willing to get something out. All is not logic, rationality, argument, and utility in life. Screw what anyone else thinks about his logic or path. Alex has values and conviction which no one here is about to overturn. He has some significant confliction among them to work out through his own experience. Some people are able to see beyond the conventional boxes of limitation (homosexuality is so innate it has no possible hope of change) and are willing to grasp at something extraordinary. I say good for him for daring to take on the challenge in accordance with his values. If a person can picture something in his mind and believe in it, he is well on his way to making it a reality. I like to see people believe in possibilities rather than limitations. They tend to be the people who break the old paradigms and help humanity advance in new directions. For every one of them, there are the 100 or 1,000,000 who will say, "It can't be done." [ Wednesday, October 19, 2005 19:52: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 18:34
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By posting about personal issues on a public forum Alex implicitly invites comment. TM's response to Alex's post was just as much an expression of his own feelings as was Alex's post itself; why is the one expression any more or less valid than the other? -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 19:02
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quote:Yes, posting surely invites comment. I don't think he was particularly looking for advice or debate. Alex can speak for himself on that count. Probably the most common communication error (not really a gender issue as it is often described) is that when a person just wants to not feel alone in his thoughts, feelings, or ideas, others will immediately seize upon it as an invitation for resolving some problem. Well-intentioned or a good exercise, sure, just not actually helpful. Here is how Alex ended his post which initiated all this. (Should we rename this thread "Kissing a boy"?) Alex said, " I have been absolutely dying to talk to someone and you have no idea how good it feels to have finally expressed my thoughts. Ignore the whole thing if you like." I don't see him asking for someone to debate him on his decision. Support, inquiry, suggestion all seem appropriate. Trying to convince him he's wrong about a very sensitive issue he was brave enough to air here is futile at best, and in my opinion, insensitive to the spirit in which it was shared. If he had ended his post with, "I'm confused and unsure and would love to hear your opinions on my thinking" then it would be a whole 'nuther matter. You're right that TM's expression of his feeling was just as valid as Alex's in expressing his. I will always defend TM or anyone else to have their vision and conviction of things, even as I am certain to see it differently myself. Too bad so many of TM's "expressions" appear fashioned to incite and insult rather than accomplish anything constructive. That said, it is interesting to see the various opinions on the issue being posted, TM's no less. I find it most misfortunate that the context for this dialog has to be that of trying to change Alex's' perspective on such a sensitive issue. I think it's tacky and smacks of ego and personal agendas rather than actual concern for Alex. P.S. Alex, I need a cartoon fix baaaaad maaaaaann....getting.....delirium......tremens.... [ Wednesday, October 19, 2005 19:05: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, October 19 2005 20:22
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Well, the topic is still called "Kissing a Girl," so let's just get back to the topic. Any other female webbers out there that want to fess up about their vodka induced attraction to the fairer sex? Have a nip and bare your soul. *this message sponsored by stolichnaya* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, October 20 2005 01:20
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quote:We have arrived at the free will argument once again, like with Euthanasia. Apparently, it is widely held that trying to change one's sexuality can cause serious psychological damage. Euthanasia, by definition, is lethally harmful. Is it wrong to pursue either by choice? The problem lies in determining whether it is one's own choice or social pressure. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, October 20 2005 01:38
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Is there any clear-cut difference? A child raised in a vacuum dies of asphyxiation. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Thursday, October 20 2005 01:55
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quote:Off topic: That just reminded me of the school camp coming up...I'll have to pay my friend for some grog. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, October 20 2005 08:28
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quote:It looked to me like Alex just wanted to be able to tell his feelings to somebody, which is a lot easier to do at an anonymous message board in a post burried deep inside a thread on a different topic, than in a personal conversation. If he wanted to start a discussion on political implications of his beliefs, he would have done it in a separate thread. There is a time and place for political discussion and there is a time and place for just letting the subject drop if you have nothing nice to say. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |