Human cloning

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AuthorTopic: Human cloning
Shock Trooper
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Profile #25
Does anyone remember how a couple years ago a company claimed that they successfully cloned a human? I can't find anything about it on the internet, although it's not surprising seeing as this happened at least a year ago and I can't remember the details.

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Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00
Too Sexy for my Title
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Profile #26
quote:
Originally written by Jeros:

Now, I do not know if this is true or not, but I read this from a biology book one time that there had been a successful human clone made before and that she lived a successful and fulfilling life. (Since she was cloned in the 1970s, according to the book, she's probably in her late 20s or early 30s by now) The problem was that when she found out she was an exact replica of another female woman, she broke down in tears. The cloned woman had the exact physical attributes, and for some reason, the original memories and emotions of the original woman. the cloned woman wondered on who's memories and feling they were, until she found out the truth.

EDIT: Whether this story is true or not, or if it was put into the biology book as a work of fiction, I do not know. It's just something I remember reading in high school during my freshman year. Of course, logic would say that it's all a lie because GE didn't get that far back then, or did it?

The only true benefit of human cloning, as I've heard of late, would be the use of stem cells to cure certain illnesses.

To me, just forget about clones and live out your own life. No need to copy yourself.

We all know this is just a story, but it shows a good example. We are all concentrating on how we feel about cloning, but have you concentrated on how will the clone feel? (Because clones do have feelings). Could you imagine what would it feel like being a clone? Never being as good as the "original". Never truly being able to fit in, being the abnormal one. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I read that clones do have the same feelings towards the same things as the "original". I know the clone will be different because of the difference experiences it had while growing up and stuff, but it will have some of the emotions of the original person. So, a clone will be able to feel love towards a certain person (let's say someone that the "original person" loves) and never be loved back, since that person will want the original and not a younger copy. Besides, a clone will never fit in on a family because of their expectations; the family will want the clone to replace someone and that's impossible.
About my last post, I was hypothetically talking about if one were to live forever. I did not mean to say that cloning makes you live forever. Anyways, I do think we are going a little bit over ourselves, since cloning will not happen for many more years (if it happens), but I just feel is wrong. As I said before, we are not God and we should not act as if we were.

Edit: to Error, I do remember seeing something like that on TV around last year, but I'm not sure about the details.

[ Friday, August 05, 2005 10:42: Message edited by: Marlenny ]
Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00
Off With Their Heads
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I am so against human cloning that I think we need to abort one member of each pair of identical twins.

No, seriously, I can't see reproductive human cloning leading to anything but trouble, but I also can't imagine any reason why there ought to be a law about it. I don't think identical twins have any issues with their essentially identical genetic make-up, so I don't know why clones would.

As long as we use some basic common sense — the clone is a human being just as much as the original and has rights and the ability to be an individual just as much as any identical twin — everything should be fine.

EDIT: The other kind of cloning, though, has so much medical possibility that we need to research it. If your liver is failing, someday we may be able to clone your liver, which would have tremendous advantages over simple organ donation.

[ Friday, August 05, 2005 11:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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I would think a clone is very different from an identical twin. People don't ask to have twins, they just do. However, when you clone someone you willingly make a copy of the original person. Therefore, you cannot help but to have some kind of expectation that it will be somewhat be like the original. Besides, twins are originals, each have their own personality, while a clone is a copy of a person, and will have some emotions/feelings that come from the emotions/feelings of the original.
Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00
Guardian
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This is why I think it's a bad idea. How would you feel when you found out you weren't a real human, just a clone bred to give organs for this jerk when he gets sick.

Depressed? Sad? Angry?

I for one would be a tad, (how do you say)... pissed.

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Shaper
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The ideal then would be leaving clones uneducated, and preferably unaware of the outside world...

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Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
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But it happens in movies all the time: one little foul up from Security Officer Billy and they find out. Now, not only does Bill get fired, but now we have self-aware clones savagely murdering their creators.

And government coverups can be costly of our tax dollars.

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Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
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quote:
Originally written by demonslaeyr:

This is why I think it's a bad idea. How would you feel when you found out you weren't a real human, just a clone bred to give organs for this jerk when he gets sick.
What on earth are you talking about? Reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning are two entirely different things. Ideally, in the latter case you clone a single organ. I don't think a cloned liver will particularly care that it's not its own person.

Reproductive cloning, on the other hand, would produce real humans who wouldn't be required to donate organs or anything like that.

[ Friday, August 05, 2005 12:18: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
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Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by demonslaeyr:

This is why I think it's a bad idea. How would you feel when you found out you weren't a real human, just a clone bred to give organs for this jerk when he gets sick.

Depressed? Sad? Angry?

I for one would be a tad, (how do you say)... pissed.

I read a book in which cloning complete humans for organs was done. They injected the clone at birth with a liquid that made it completely unintelligent, which was also how they justified taking the clones organs. Of course, I find that just about as immoral as taking organs from an intelligent clone.

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Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
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Of course it's just as immoral! Whether you make someone/thing "unintelligent" or not, what matters is the end result...

And about the overpopulation: That will never happen, at least in our lifetime. It's one thing to create a pandemic or planetary disaster, and it's another to maintain it. People will die off due to lack of natural resources if the world becomes overpopulated for no more than a few years, and people will be forced to stop using fossil fuels eventually if the global warming theory proves itself valid in the near future.

Sorry I got off on a tangent...

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Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00
Agent
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But it happens in movies all the time

HA ha ha ha...

Marlenny: I really don't think that you understand what makes "identical" twins.

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Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00
Master
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You'd think they could manipulate the DNA to give cloned people "perfect genes." Eventually anyway. But it doesn't sound that appealing.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Guardian
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Speaking with complete levity, I think it wouldn't be that bad if every woman on Earth was attractive, but with diversity of features preserved. Converting all of humankind into white-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed creatures would certainly be a poor idea.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by ben XIII:

You'd think they could manipulate the DNA to give cloned people "perfect genes." Eventually anyway. But it doesn't sound that appealing.
Think about what attributes you'd actually want a genetically perfect person to have, and suddenly the idea of creating perfect humans seems a lot harder even in principle.

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I don't really have a moral problem with reproductive cloning (so long as all the gotchas are fixed and you aren't producing malformed piles of goo that die young), but I have no idea why anyone would actually want to do it. There are easier ways to produce a human, and the only reason I can see for wanting a clone is the misguided notion that it will be give you immortality, or replace a loved one, or something.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Chief Spider watching The Simpsons:


And about the overpopulation: ...people will die off due to lack of natural resources if the world becomes overpopulated for no more than a few years, and people will be forced to stop using fossil fuels eventually if the global warming theory proves itself valid in the near future.

And what do you think is happening now?

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
The Establishment
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The cloning issue is an interesting one as it appears that the environment has a significant effect on the development of a living being. Subtle things like temperature, atmospheric conditions, chemical compounds, background radiation levels, and all sorts of things have a fairly dramatic effect on the development of a being, human or otherwise.

With that in mind, pure "cloning" to make an exact replica is idealistic and probably impractical. Although the person would genetically identical, there would be a lot of subtle and not so subtle differences. Even identical twins exhibit subtle differences even though they developed in very similar environments. I suspect having two identical twins in completely different environments would yield different results.

As far as organ harvesting from clones, that is an artifact of cinema fantasy. There is no reason to do such a thing if we could simply take the simpler route of cloning an organ. Such an entity does not have feelings nor any conscious attributes of sentience. In other words, there would be nothing immoral about creating organs.

As far as overpopulation, sexual reproduction is doing a fine job of it. I doubt that any cloning effort in the near future would displace the influx of new people via the "natural" way. The sheer resources of doing so would be staggering.

Then comes the issue of why we should clone. Well, the only real reason is for improved genetic selectivity. There is the potential that many diseases could be eradicated by eliminating them from the gene pool. Of course there needs to be limits, having everyone be genetically near identical would be very bad from a sexual reproduction stand point.

In terms of improving intellectual and physical abilities, that would be fine as I can see a net benefit to our species. The world is full of problems and hardly a fragment of the brain power to deal with them exists. Of course, these are uncharted waters and great care will need to be exercised.

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I am so against human cloning that I think we need to abort one member of each pair of identical twins.
Although I like you very much Kelandon, this I find criminal. Its like murdering somebody!

I'm really not against abortion, but to abort one member because of being a member of an identical twin, i find really barbaric.

when cloning, you yourself, as a scientist, create a lifeform, but an identical twin is something completely different, in my opinion. Does this mean you also would abort animals that are identical twins or is it just humans?

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I am so against human cloning that I think we need to abort one member of each pair of identical twins.
This is just wrong, in my opinion. Abortion, to me at least, equals murder. And that isn't a religious viewpoint either.

The biggest danger I can think of now, which has been mentioned, is meaning. If we create somebody, aren't we removing any higher purpose from them? We, as a species, have long wondered why we are here. Wouldn't creating a clone take that away from them?

[ Saturday, August 06, 2005 05:47: Message edited by: SupaNik ]

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Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Infiltrator
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Cloning should be performed for scientific research and documentation purposes and to further the understanding of the human race.

All other cloning is unneccesary and should not be performed.

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Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
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Both of you fail reading comprehension. :P

EDIT: In reference to Thralni and SupaNik, obviously.

[ Saturday, August 06, 2005 06:05: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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In case Kelandon's reply did not make it horribly obvious already, he was being sarcastic.

(Mind you, I've heard similar views expressed seriously. A nice old lady who lives down the street from me was once asked to take part in a vox pop poll on what should be done with surplus embryos from IVF procedures. Her response? "I think they're unnatural and we should destroy them all".)

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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If anyone would recommend getting rid of the "natural clones," it's Thuryl.

Extensive anecdotal evidence has documented that identical twins often do tend to have similar (though of course not identical) tastes, personalities, and so on. I'm not sure if there has been any formal study on it, but let's assume it's true and would remain true for clones. How is that a problem? There's probably someone a lot like that already without the benefits of cloning, and nobody is murdering anyone else.

What about clones who feel inferior because they aren't the same person as the original? Unless the parents, guardians, or whatever are enforcing that idea, which should come under the heading of abuse, it's not a problem. Almost every single person reading this post, with a few very notable exceptions, is a random assortment of genes from two parents. Would a nonrandom copy of genes from one parent completely change your life? Not unless it's jammed down your throat.

I simply don't see the reason for reproductive cloning. You get a person who may be similar but won't be a copy of the original. It's expensive, difficult, and low-yield, at least for now. What, exactly, do you get that the old-fashioned kind of child production doesn't do for you?

For those who still don't understand therapeutic cloning, you don't get an unconscious or unintelligent person. You don't get anything resembling a person at all. You get cells that can be turned into specific organs if needed. While this does run into the problems of those who insist that a blastocyst is a human being, I can see no problems with it. It doesn't even look disgusting or questionable, unlike current organ collection procedures.

—Alorael, who would rather not be cloned on the moral grounds that the money wasted on that pointless endeavor could be put to better use, like feeding the starving or euthanizing undesirables. Take your pick.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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Reproductive/germ-line cloning of anything, human or beast, is rather pointless, in most cases. I know of some modified pigs that are being used to harvest organs for humans, and that isn't too bad; controlled cloning and recombining of certain livestock animals (and plants too) can be beneficial for those who need to consume them. Harvesting humans in the same way is ridiculous, as we do not have the genetic capacity for domestication (as pigs and cows do), and would lead miserable lives as someone's organ dummy. It might work if one lobotomized a clone after it developed and put it in some sort of cryogenic suspension fluid, but that's something that requires further research in other branches of biochemistry and is the kind of "extreme" use of cloning that would cause most rational people to fear cloning programs, and most irrational people to ban genetic research altogether.

Therapeutic cloning, however, is an excellent use of cloning procedures. The potential to heal damaged spinal cords, brains, and the prospect of harvesting in vitro organs for a person who needs them are both too great to ignore. Future kidney transplant recipients will no longer have to take immuno-depressant drugs, for example, if they have their own spare keyed to their body waiting in reserve for them. Therapy is the major reason why cloning hasn't been scrapped altogether, and with good reason.

I'll keep an eye on things, too. This is my field after all, so as I advance, it's my responsibility as a scientist to make sure my brother and sister lab-rats don't get too crazy with their ideas. Granted, I'm just one person and my pair of eyes won't be much in the scheme of things, but every little bit counts, eh? :D I'm pleased that Jeros brought this up, actually. It filled me with zeal for the University. Excellent.

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Posts: 154 | Registered: Monday, June 20 2005 07:00
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Well, I simply brought up this thread because I read something about it in the newspaper and it sounded like a good topic to start.

-Jeros, who now realizes that this is one of the shortest posts he has made in his less than a month's stay at the SW boards. He also forgot to leave his sanity at the door in Alorael's office.

EDIT: Typos

[ Saturday, August 06, 2005 16:52: Message edited by: Jeros ]

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