Human cloning
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5585
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written Friday, August 5 2005 10:03
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Does anyone remember how a couple years ago a company claimed that they successfully cloned a human? I can't find anything about it on the internet, although it's not surprising seeing as this happened at least a year ago and I can't remember the details. -------------------- Important Information about Stuff Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00 |
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Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
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written Friday, August 5 2005 10:39
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quote:We all know this is just a story, but it shows a good example. We are all concentrating on how we feel about cloning, but have you concentrated on how will the clone feel? (Because clones do have feelings). Could you imagine what would it feel like being a clone? Never being as good as the "original". Never truly being able to fit in, being the abnormal one. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I read that clones do have the same feelings towards the same things as the "original". I know the clone will be different because of the difference experiences it had while growing up and stuff, but it will have some of the emotions of the original person. So, a clone will be able to feel love towards a certain person (let's say someone that the "original person" loves) and never be loved back, since that person will want the original and not a younger copy. Besides, a clone will never fit in on a family because of their expectations; the family will want the clone to replace someone and that's impossible. About my last post, I was hypothetically talking about if one were to live forever. I did not mean to say that cloning makes you live forever. Anyways, I do think we are going a little bit over ourselves, since cloning will not happen for many more years (if it happens), but I just feel is wrong. As I said before, we are not God and we should not act as if we were. Edit: to Error, I do remember seeing something like that on TV around last year, but I'm not sure about the details. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 10:42: Message edited by: Marlenny ] Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, August 5 2005 11:01
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I am so against human cloning that I think we need to abort one member of each pair of identical twins. No, seriously, I can't see reproductive human cloning leading to anything but trouble, but I also can't imagine any reason why there ought to be a law about it. I don't think identical twins have any issues with their essentially identical genetic make-up, so I don't know why clones would. As long as we use some basic common sense — the clone is a human being just as much as the original and has rights and the ability to be an individual just as much as any identical twin — everything should be fine. EDIT: The other kind of cloning, though, has so much medical possibility that we need to research it. If your liver is failing, someday we may be able to clone your liver, which would have tremendous advantages over simple organ donation. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 11:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
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written Friday, August 5 2005 11:11
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I would think a clone is very different from an identical twin. People don't ask to have twins, they just do. However, when you clone someone you willingly make a copy of the original person. Therefore, you cannot help but to have some kind of expectation that it will be somewhat be like the original. Besides, twins are originals, each have their own personality, while a clone is a copy of a person, and will have some emotions/feelings that come from the emotions/feelings of the original. Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Friday, August 5 2005 11:20
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This is why I think it's a bad idea. How would you feel when you found out you weren't a real human, just a clone bred to give organs for this jerk when he gets sick. Depressed? Sad? Angry? I for one would be a tad, (how do you say)... pissed. -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Friday, August 5 2005 11:22
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The ideal then would be leaving clones uneducated, and preferably unaware of the outside world... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Friday, August 5 2005 11:36
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But it happens in movies all the time: one little foul up from Security Officer Billy and they find out. Now, not only does Bill get fired, but now we have self-aware clones savagely murdering their creators. And government coverups can be costly of our tax dollars. -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, August 5 2005 12:17
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quote:What on earth are you talking about? Reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning are two entirely different things. Ideally, in the latter case you clone a single organ. I don't think a cloned liver will particularly care that it's not its own person. Reproductive cloning, on the other hand, would produce real humans who wouldn't be required to donate organs or anything like that. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 12:18: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5585
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written Friday, August 5 2005 12:17
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quote:I read a book in which cloning complete humans for organs was done. They injected the clone at birth with a liquid that made it completely unintelligent, which was also how they justified taking the clones organs. Of course, I find that just about as immoral as taking organs from an intelligent clone. -------------------- Important Information about Stuff Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6068
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written Friday, August 5 2005 13:51
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Of course it's just as immoral! Whether you make someone/thing "unintelligent" or not, what matters is the end result... And about the overpopulation: That will never happen, at least in our lifetime. It's one thing to create a pandemic or planetary disaster, and it's another to maintain it. People will die off due to lack of natural resources if the world becomes overpopulated for no more than a few years, and people will be forced to stop using fossil fuels eventually if the global warming theory proves itself valid in the near future. Sorry I got off on a tangent... -------------------- "Sometimes I get all hungry! And then I catch some flies! They fly into my webs! They are really yummy guys!" -Spider Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Friday, August 5 2005 18:10
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But it happens in movies all the time HA ha ha ha... Marlenny: I really don't think that you understand what makes "identical" twins. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Friday, August 5 2005 18:16
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You'd think they could manipulate the DNA to give cloned people "perfect genes." Eventually anyway. But it doesn't sound that appealing. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Friday, August 5 2005 19:13
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Speaking with complete levity, I think it wouldn't be that bad if every woman on Earth was attractive, but with diversity of features preserved. Converting all of humankind into white-skinned, blonde, blue-eyed creatures would certainly be a poor idea. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, August 5 2005 19:14
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quote:Think about what attributes you'd actually want a genetically perfect person to have, and suddenly the idea of creating perfect humans seems a lot harder even in principle. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 03:39
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I don't really have a moral problem with reproductive cloning (so long as all the gotchas are fixed and you aren't producing malformed piles of goo that die young), but I have no idea why anyone would actually want to do it. There are easier ways to produce a human, and the only reason I can see for wanting a clone is the misguided notion that it will be give you immortality, or replace a loved one, or something. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 03:55
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quote:And what do you think is happening now? -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 04:59
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The cloning issue is an interesting one as it appears that the environment has a significant effect on the development of a living being. Subtle things like temperature, atmospheric conditions, chemical compounds, background radiation levels, and all sorts of things have a fairly dramatic effect on the development of a being, human or otherwise. With that in mind, pure "cloning" to make an exact replica is idealistic and probably impractical. Although the person would genetically identical, there would be a lot of subtle and not so subtle differences. Even identical twins exhibit subtle differences even though they developed in very similar environments. I suspect having two identical twins in completely different environments would yield different results. As far as organ harvesting from clones, that is an artifact of cinema fantasy. There is no reason to do such a thing if we could simply take the simpler route of cloning an organ. Such an entity does not have feelings nor any conscious attributes of sentience. In other words, there would be nothing immoral about creating organs. As far as overpopulation, sexual reproduction is doing a fine job of it. I doubt that any cloning effort in the near future would displace the influx of new people via the "natural" way. The sheer resources of doing so would be staggering. Then comes the issue of why we should clone. Well, the only real reason is for improved genetic selectivity. There is the potential that many diseases could be eradicated by eliminating them from the gene pool. Of course there needs to be limits, having everyone be genetically near identical would be very bad from a sexual reproduction stand point. In terms of improving intellectual and physical abilities, that would be fine as I can see a net benefit to our species. The world is full of problems and hardly a fragment of the brain power to deal with them exists. Of course, these are uncharted waters and great care will need to be exercised. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 05:18
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quote:Although I like you very much Kelandon, this I find criminal. Its like murdering somebody! I'm really not against abortion, but to abort one member because of being a member of an identical twin, i find really barbaric. when cloning, you yourself, as a scientist, create a lifeform, but an identical twin is something completely different, in my opinion. Does this mean you also would abort animals that are identical twins or is it just humans? -------------------- Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods). Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken. Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 05:46
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quote:This is just wrong, in my opinion. Abortion, to me at least, equals murder. And that isn't a religious viewpoint either. The biggest danger I can think of now, which has been mentioned, is meaning. If we create somebody, aren't we removing any higher purpose from them? We, as a species, have long wondered why we are here. Wouldn't creating a clone take that away from them? [ Saturday, August 06, 2005 05:47: Message edited by: SupaNik ] -------------------- "I am a living sign..." Thus endeth this post. Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 154
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 05:59
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Cloning should be performed for scientific research and documentation purposes and to further the understanding of the human race. All other cloning is unneccesary and should not be performed. -------------------- Inconsistently backward. SWOH. IM, PATF, ND. Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 06:00
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Both of you fail reading comprehension. :P EDIT: In reference to Thralni and SupaNik, obviously. [ Saturday, August 06, 2005 06:05: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 15:18
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In case Kelandon's reply did not make it horribly obvious already, he was being sarcastic. (Mind you, I've heard similar views expressed seriously. A nice old lady who lives down the street from me was once asked to take part in a vox pop poll on what should be done with surplus embryos from IVF procedures. Her response? "I think they're unnatural and we should destroy them all".) -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 16:32
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If anyone would recommend getting rid of the "natural clones," it's Thuryl. Extensive anecdotal evidence has documented that identical twins often do tend to have similar (though of course not identical) tastes, personalities, and so on. I'm not sure if there has been any formal study on it, but let's assume it's true and would remain true for clones. How is that a problem? There's probably someone a lot like that already without the benefits of cloning, and nobody is murdering anyone else. What about clones who feel inferior because they aren't the same person as the original? Unless the parents, guardians, or whatever are enforcing that idea, which should come under the heading of abuse, it's not a problem. Almost every single person reading this post, with a few very notable exceptions, is a random assortment of genes from two parents. Would a nonrandom copy of genes from one parent completely change your life? Not unless it's jammed down your throat. I simply don't see the reason for reproductive cloning. You get a person who may be similar but won't be a copy of the original. It's expensive, difficult, and low-yield, at least for now. What, exactly, do you get that the old-fashioned kind of child production doesn't do for you? For those who still don't understand therapeutic cloning, you don't get an unconscious or unintelligent person. You don't get anything resembling a person at all. You get cells that can be turned into specific organs if needed. While this does run into the problems of those who insist that a blastocyst is a human being, I can see no problems with it. It doesn't even look disgusting or questionable, unlike current organ collection procedures. —Alorael, who would rather not be cloned on the moral grounds that the money wasted on that pointless endeavor could be put to better use, like feeding the starving or euthanizing undesirables. Take your pick. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5986
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 16:35
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Reproductive/germ-line cloning of anything, human or beast, is rather pointless, in most cases. I know of some modified pigs that are being used to harvest organs for humans, and that isn't too bad; controlled cloning and recombining of certain livestock animals (and plants too) can be beneficial for those who need to consume them. Harvesting humans in the same way is ridiculous, as we do not have the genetic capacity for domestication (as pigs and cows do), and would lead miserable lives as someone's organ dummy. It might work if one lobotomized a clone after it developed and put it in some sort of cryogenic suspension fluid, but that's something that requires further research in other branches of biochemistry and is the kind of "extreme" use of cloning that would cause most rational people to fear cloning programs, and most irrational people to ban genetic research altogether. Therapeutic cloning, however, is an excellent use of cloning procedures. The potential to heal damaged spinal cords, brains, and the prospect of harvesting in vitro organs for a person who needs them are both too great to ignore. Future kidney transplant recipients will no longer have to take immuno-depressant drugs, for example, if they have their own spare keyed to their body waiting in reserve for them. Therapy is the major reason why cloning hasn't been scrapped altogether, and with good reason. I'll keep an eye on things, too. This is my field after all, so as I advance, it's my responsibility as a scientist to make sure my brother and sister lab-rats don't get too crazy with their ideas. Granted, I'm just one person and my pair of eyes won't be much in the scheme of things, but every little bit counts, eh? :D I'm pleased that Jeros brought this up, actually. It filled me with zeal for the University. Excellent. -------------------- Wu wei... it's the only way Posts: 154 | Registered: Monday, June 20 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6102
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written Saturday, August 6 2005 16:44
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Well, I simply brought up this thread because I read something about it in the newspaper and it sounded like a good topic to start. -Jeros, who now realizes that this is one of the shortest posts he has made in his less than a month's stay at the SW boards. He also forgot to leave his sanity at the door in Alorael's office. EDIT: Typos [ Saturday, August 06, 2005 16:52: Message edited by: Jeros ] -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 | Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00 |