Human cloning

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Author	Topic: Human cloning
Jeros Shock Trooper Member # 6102	written Thursday, August 4 2005 18:50 Profile #0 Do you think that human cloning should be developed in the near future (unless it already is in development as I'm typing out this topic thread) or do you believe that it is morally wrong to clone human beings? I've recently read some things on cloning and I've heard a lot of people being against it for a lot of reasons. Majority Pros: 1. In theory, a loved one never dies as the clone of the deceased family member retains all physical and mental attributes (but people say it doesn't feel like the "same person") 2. People argue that cloning could help develop new cures for diseases as you can use the clone as an "artifical test subject". (but since the clone would actually be another human being, that would violate human rights) Majority Cons: 1. If too many clones were made, wouldn't the earth be overpopulated with people? 2. Some people believe on the "evil twin factor" that if you were cloned, the clone would attempt to kill you to become the "permanent person". 3. Some people find it morally offensive to clone humans because everyone was meant to live one life, unless certain religions state otherwise. (I do not know if the afterlife exists or not) PS: These pros and cons are not of my judgement; I just got these off of a local news report I was watching this morning. EDIT PS 2: By cloning, since Thuryl mentioned two types, I do mean by reproduction cloning. I mean, in a hypothetical sense, if cloning life were to last equally of a human life, would you be against it or not? There are tons more arguments out there, but I just want to hear out people's opinions about this touchy subject. I personally do not side with cloning, since I'd rather just have one Jeros and not some cloned twin of me. Again, this is pretty much open ended and I really don't think there is one correct answer to this. EDIT: Minor typos [ Thursday, August 04, 2005 19:16: Message edited by: Jeros ] -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 \| Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00
M. Too Sexy for my Title Member # 5654	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:03 Profile #1 I'm not going to give a post-graduate degree answer (I never do, but some people tend to), but this is how I feel. There is no point on living forever; if you knew that you were never going to die, then you wouldn't live your life with the same passion you do now. There will always be a tomorrow, so people will not feel the need to express their true feelings or live their life to the fullest. Besides, there is the fact that the earth will be overpopulated. Moreover, I'm not sure how the medical discovery thing works. I mean, just because it is a clone it does not mean that it doesn't have any feelings. We cannot go around killing clones to save other people's life just because we don't see them as human beings. Nevertheless, has anyone thought what would a clone feel like? Spending all of his/her life wanting and wishing everything that the "real human" being desires, without a place in the world from him/her. I don't know, I just think God created us, and there is no reason good enough for us to be playing as God. Posts: 1035 \| Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:03 Profile Homepage #2 As the forums' resident biology expert, I suppose I ought to have a go at this question. quote: Originally written by Jeros: Do you think that human cloning should be developed in the near future or do you believe that it is morally wrong to clone human beings? The important thing to appreciate here is that when scientists talk about "human cloning", they can actually mean one of two rather different things, that start out roughly the same way but are done for completely different purposes. Reproductive cloning is what most people think of when they think of cloning. You take a nucleus from one of someone's cells, inject it into an egg that's had its own nucleus taken out, let the egg develop into an embryo, implant it into a uterus and wait for it to turn into a person. Therapeutic cloning is the other kind, where you start out by making a cloned embryo, but don't let develop into a full organism. Instead, cells from the early embryo (which are genetically identical to the person they were cloned from, but have the advantage of being able to proliferate indefinitely and develop into any cell type) can be cultured into various adult tissue types and used for medical purposes, such as transplantation. This is a technology that's still in its early stages right now, for a variety of reasons (both legal and practical), but shows a lot of promise in the future. You seem to be talking about reproductive cloning. Now, I don't object to the idea of reproductive cloning in principle (although it seems like a pretty frivolous thing to do), but in practice no sane biologist would countenance its use in humans today. For every successful clone that's been made of a mammal, hundreds more have developed severe abnormalities and died either before or soon after birth. Even the clones that start out healthy often develop problems later on. Quite apart from the ethical issues, an assisted reproductive technique that produced 200 severely malformed babies for every normal one would be a public relations disaster. [ Thursday, August 04, 2005 19:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
demonslay3r Guardian Member # 2238	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:08 Profile Homepage #3 There are too many weird science-fiction things that could go wrong. I'd rather not deal with that. I'm not big on saying it's morally wrong, but I just don't think it's the best idea. Sure, we could get fresh organs and stuff. But we created life... it's kinda like slavery. Except worse. -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Jeros Shock Trooper Member # 6102	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:09 Profile #4 The idea of "playing God" has been a hot topic of criticism for a lot of people in recent years. Some believe that there should just be one of every person, unless you have a biological identical twin who shares the exact thoughts, feelings, and looks that you do. I think this is kind of rare, not too sure though as I tend to study more of social life than biology concepts. -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 \| Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:19 Profile Homepage #5 There's a fine line between creating fresh people (exact replicas, which we cannot do quite yet) and regrowing organs. Both are technically cloning, but only one is ethically hazy. As demonslaeyr said, it's a bit wrong to create life, if only because it'd be too easy for someone to abuse the power. Overpopulation would hopefully never occur, though that's just too weird for words. Identity crises would get very unpleasant, and the "evil twin" scenario would probably happen eventually. In fact, everyone would have that problem, knowing they could instantly be replaced. Think of how it'd lower military morale, not just knowing you can be replaced, but (even worse) knowing that clones have come before you and died. Therapeutic cloning: nothing but good, as Thuryl said. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:34 Profile #6 Even successful reproductive cloning would not duplicate people or provide immortality; it would merely generate identical twins born at widely different times. Genetics does not determine everything about a person. For example, identical twins do not have identical fingerprints. They certainly do not have identical brains, or memories, or personalities. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Error Shock Trooper Member # 5585	written Thursday, August 4 2005 19:44 Profile #7 quote: Originally written by Jeros: In theory, a loved one never dies as the clone of the deceased family member retains all physical and mental attributes (but people say it doesn't feel like the "same person") Clones are only genetic copies, and since things that happened to the original, which impact who the person is as much as genetics cannot be completely reproduced, the clone would only be as similar to the original as an identical twin. If too many clones were made, wouldn't the earth be overpopulated with people? I don't see this ever becoming a problem unless cloning rates begin to come close to the rates of normal reproduction, which I think is very unlikely. Some people believe on the "evil twin factor" that if you were cloned, the clone would attempt to kill you to become the "permanent person". This is also unlikely, as clones would have no reason to do this unless they were not legally human, or they percieved that the original had a better life and they thought they could get away with stealing it. For the latter to happen, the clone would have to be unusually amoral, and there's nothing to suggest that clones would be any more amoral than non clones. Some people find it morally offensive to clone humans because everyone was meant to live one life, unless certain religions state otherwise. (I do not know if the afterlife exists or not) Cloning would not actually be giving someone another life, since the clone is not the same person, merely a genetic duplicate. If human cloning actually gave people a second life they probably wouldn't be able to outlaw it for as long as they have. I realise I have said things against both the pros and cons, but both sides had flaws that needed to be pointed out. I myself am against human cloning. I doubt anyone could have a very good life if thier reason for existence was to replace someone, and if they were created for thier organs, that would be even worse. Edit: It seems many of the points I made were already mentioned while I was writing this. [ Thursday, August 04, 2005 19:47: Message edited by: Error ] -------------------- Important Information about Stuff Posts: 258 \| Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00
Icshi Mongolian Barbeque Member # 1528	written Thursday, August 4 2005 21:15 Profile #8 1. I don't think human cloning will be an issue until we've actually got the hang of cloning animals properly. At things stand, if we tried cloning a human it'd turn out as something resembling biped hamburger casserole after a few months of staggering around. 2. I'm not afraid of being "replaced" by a clone since nobody's too concerned with the me that's here already. 3. Let's stick to test-tube babies. They have cuter names and seem to live longer (if not happier) lives than cloned sheep. 4. Since there's not much practical uses for cloning whole people, I doubt if it'll be attempted more than once, and even then as just an experiment. It'd be smarter and have a better pay-off to focus efforts on duplicating just individual organs. 5. No, just for the record, I don't think it's right to try to clone whole people. Animals, sure—clone away! But people—no. Too many troublesome issues not the least of which is the soul. But still, if somebody clones a human and he has isn't a mobile mushbrain but has a personality and a "soul" then fine—apparently God isn't too picky how you came into the world, He'll still give you what you need. -------------------- The A.E. van Vogt Information Site My Tribute to the Greatest Writer of the Science Fiction Golden Age Posts: 907 \| Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Thursday, August 4 2005 22:45 Profile Homepage #9 I think cloning humans (or even animals) is a very bad idea for two reasons: 1. [Most people who'd want clones of their loved ones exepect to get exact copies. This misconseption is displayed even by some people on this thread, who talk about living forever. However,] the clone's personality, attitudes and views will be very different from the original's. These things depend a lot on environment, so the clone will most likely be a completely differnt person. This is the reason why I also dislike the idea of cloning pets: the new cloned kitten will not be the same as the old cat. Expecting it to be the same will only make the life miserable for both the pet and the owner. 2. Just like with genetic engineering, it will take a very long time until we fully understand what we are doing. For example, cloned sheep show some signs of being the same age as the original. (Thuryl could probably describe this in a lot more detail.) On a broader question of genetic engineering of humans, there are many examples of things we could mess up. For example, many outstanding scientists and artists had serious mental problems. If the two conditions are genetically connected, we could destroy all genius in an attempt to permanently eliminate mental illness. EDIT: Making things more clear in point #1 and adding following: Just to clarify, I don't have anything against growing artificial organs. My post was discussing only reproductive cloning. As for genetic engineering, genetic research is great, but I'd be careful with any attempts at creating a perfect human, whether by genetic engineering, eugenics, or cloning. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 07:53: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Spring Shaper Member # 5450	written Thursday, August 4 2005 22:57 Profile Homepage #10 I personally think that cloning humans is wrong. We are born to live once, and no more. Sure, some people believe in reincarnation, the afterlife and all that, but I think that we just need to live ours lives. I agree with Marlenny, if we lived forever, we could just say, 'screw this, I'll do it later. I have forever.' You would also have to live through everyone you know experiencing their lives, and then passing on. Its a terrible idea. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 \| Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
stranger Agent Member # 1558	written Friday, August 5 2005 02:10 Profile #11 You would also have to live through everyone you know experiencing their lives, and then passing on. This would only happen if you did cloning and no-one else you cared about did (according to you, Marlenny and Jeros. I think you guys are wrong -I don't believe cloning can be used to live forever). Zevis said: 1. The clone's personality, attitudes and views will be very different from the original's. These things depend a lot on environment, so the clone will most likely be a completely differnt person. Uh... a clone IS a completely different person. I don't understand what your point is, are you making one? Expecting it to be the same will only make the life miserable for both the pet and the owner. Only people who didn't understand GE and cloning would make this mistake, this is not a reason to abandon GE research in humans. 2. Just like with genetic engineering, it will take a very long time until we fully understand what we are doing. This is not a reason to abandon GE research in humans. This is only a reason to suspened said research until cloning in other species is up to a certain standard. On a broader question of genetic engineering of humans, there are many examples of things we could mess up. This sentance is meaningless. It could be used to describe anything. I back what Error said, and I think after a time cloned organs will be able to be produced without creating the rest of the person as well, this would relieve you Icshi of your soul concerns. I back what SoT and Thuryl said. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 03:00: Message edited by: stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 \| Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Friday, August 5 2005 02:15 Profile Homepage #12 This is a rather difficult question. I'm sure cloning has many good things to offer, but I'm not sure its really good to do. Take for example my cat. He died about a yea ago. If I was offered to let him be cloned, so I can anjoy him an other 16 years, I would probably say yes. But to clone humans? I don't know. It seems to me like a quite strange idea. He Thuryl! Didn't know you also were interested in Biology! -------------------- Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods). Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken. Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Friday, August 5 2005 02:35 Profile Homepage #13 Thuryl, if I remember correctly, is an all-round genius. If you find a subject he has no clue on, you win a prize. :P -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
stranger Agent Member # 1558	written Friday, August 5 2005 02:56 Profile #14 quote: Originally written by Marvin, the paranoid android: If I was offered to let him be cloned, so I can anjoy him an other 16 years, I would probably say yes. But ... I really don't think that you understand: if your cat was cloned for you, you would have a clone of your cat, you wouldn't get your cat back. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 \| Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Friday, August 5 2005 03:03 Profile Homepage #15 I knew I forgot to mention something in my last post. That thing you mentioned about my cat, you're right. I wanted to put it in the post but I forgot. In this point of view, cloning talked about in this topic seems a bit useless. If the cat i once had, I'd get a cat, looking exactly like the cat I had, but if it had an other nature, it wouldn't be my cat. You're absolutely right about that. -------------------- Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods). Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken. Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Friday, August 5 2005 03:52 Profile #16 I do not have a problem with growing tissue, organs, blood, etc. for medical purposes. Making pieces is alright. However, why would we clone a whole person. I think it is questionable to clone a whole person. Cloning would be an exact copy. One of the problems is that people would be opportunistic with a clone and think it was different than a person-- modifying it in strange and inappropriate ways. It would be very easy to truly create the mindset -- not me it is not a person-- so I will give it purple skin and make it my slave, soldier, whore, servant, etc. Or because it is different let me tinker with its mind make it look perfect, etc. The problem is not cloning the person but what status occurs to the cloned person-- if it is not designated as a full person with all rights people will tinker genetically so it can be used in bad ways. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 12:55: Message edited by: I'll Steal Your Toast ] -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Frozen Feet Infiltrator Member # 4248	written Friday, August 5 2005 03:59 Profile #17 About overpopulation: World is already overpopulated, or at least will become so in a dozen of years. We didn't need clones to do that. EDIT: Try to believe already, good people, that a clone will never, ever be an exact copy. It'll only be a younger twin of yours, and twins rarely share the same habits, interests and personalities. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 04:06: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ] -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 \| Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Nikki. Shaper Member # 3442	written Friday, August 5 2005 06:44 Profile Homepage #18 Hmm. I think it's right to create organs for transplant, since not to do so may result in the loss of human life. That should be avoided, in my opinion, at any cost. But creating people? What is to stop us then creating armies of humans? And then manipulating the genes, which we can do, and making them subserviant(sp?)? It might seem far-fetched, but it's there. Also, remember the outrage at the first IVF baby? This is likely to be worse. As with anything, there is a thin line. Doing it with noble intentions may be good and all that, but when an infertile couple go to a doctor and ask for a baby, would it be right to give them one through cloning? Is it God's will? And, if there is a Higher Being, surely even creating organs is against his plan. I don't know the details of the arguments. These are just things that come to me now. But if we are to do it... I just get images of "Brave New World" coming to me from dark recesses of my mind. Despite the good it could do... (Edit: 1/2 K) [ Friday, August 05, 2005 06:46: Message edited by: SupaNik ] -------------------- "I am a living sign..." Thus endeth this post. Posts: 2864 \| Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Friday, August 5 2005 06:51 Profile #19 Uh, folks, we aren't remotely close to being able to grow babies in tanks. That's way, way harder than cloning. Any cloned humans will gestate the old fashioned way. Consequently, production of cloned humans will only be more difficult than production of humans by traditional means, not less. Human cloning would not produce armies. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Frozen Feet Infiltrator Member # 4248	written Friday, August 5 2005 07:04 Profile #20 Exactly. -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 \| Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Jeros Shock Trooper Member # 6102	written Friday, August 5 2005 07:45 Profile #21 Now, I do not know if this is true or not, but I read this from a biology book one time that there had been a successful human clone made before and that she lived a successful and fulfilling life. (Since she was cloned in the 1970s, according to the book, she's probably in her late 20s or early 30s by now) The problem was that when she found out she was an exact replica of another female woman, she broke down in tears. The cloned woman had the exact physical attributes, and for some reason, the original memories and emotions of the original woman. the cloned woman wondered on who's memories and feling they were, until she found out the truth. EDIT: Whether this story is true or not, or if it was put into the biology book as a work of fiction, I do not know. It's just something I remember reading in high school during my freshman year. Of course, logic would say that it's all a lie because GE didn't get that far back then, or did it? The only true benefit of human cloning, as I've heard of late, would be the use of stem cells to cure certain illnesses. To me, just forget about clones and live out your own life. No need to copy yourself. [ Friday, August 05, 2005 07:51: Message edited by: Jeros ] -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 \| Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00
Lt. Sullust Shaper Member # 32	written Friday, August 5 2005 07:47 Profile #22 That story is obviously fabricated... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Friday, August 5 2005 07:58 Profile Homepage #23 Jeros, the story was probably a thought experiment: "what if we could clone people". Even mammals couldn't be cloned until a few years ago because technology wasn't advanced enough. PS I've edited my earlier post to make it more clear. I don't have any problem with growing artificial organs or genetic research in general. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Jeros Shock Trooper Member # 6102	written Friday, August 5 2005 08:00 Profile #24 Yeah, I figured that since I just found my old biology book under my bed just now. It was under a section called "Bright Idea Genius!". Shows how much I know. Lol... -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 \| Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00