Religion
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Monday, February 2 2004 11:36
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Well, obviously if you're going to assume the Bible is wrong, arguments based on the Bible don't make sense. And you can argue the Bible's infallibility on other grounds than 'it says it is'. Like, say, the complete historical accuracy of any and all of the Bible's historical claims that have been verified either way so far, including claims that were ridiculed for years by 'serious archaeologists' as completely implausible and unfounded-including, although this will probably surprise most of you, King David's existence-there are only two or three pieces of non-Biblical evidence for his having ever lived, although all of those are pretty irrefutable. Also, several prophecies that we know for certain were made before the events they refer to, have now been fulfilled. Sure, you could argue that modern-day Christians will read whatever they want into these prophecies to make them fit events, but things like Daniel's prophecy about the Roman Empire, which specifically mentions an eagle, seem to me fairly hard to fit to any other facts-almost as if it inspired by God, perhaps? I'll go into more depth if you really want. Suffice to say I'm convinced, and I don't accept arguments like the one you mentioned. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, February 2 2004 11:39
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Please go into more depth. I'd like to see how you're going to argue the complete historical accuracy of the Bible, and your evidence. -------------------- My BoE graphics archive is finally getting started! Yay! I hope you like my graphics.My BoE Graphics An absurdly fun Flash game- Refridgerator Raid! --------- The Lyceum- A board for BoE. Yes it is. Really. Stop staring at me! Stop it, I say! Oh, sorry... Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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One Thousand Slimy Things
Member # 66
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written Monday, February 2 2004 11:43
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I worship Ilmater, the god of suffering. Really. -------------------- Saundersw3: And bitter is better! Posts: 995 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Monday, February 2 2004 12:37
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I don't think you can say that the Cathar's beliefs were more sophisticated than David's beliefs. Complicated, perhaps, but some restrictions would never have left the 15th century had the Cathars survived. Although having said that, the Waldensians aren't that much changed from their original form, so you never know. Still, David's views are definitely Manichaean. It's a wide swathe going from Albigensians and Cathars in Languedoc, Catalonia and Northern Italy through the Balkans with the Bogumils out into the East. Most sects are now extinct but it was always stronger in the east. I've forgotten most of what I've read about it, but I believe a variant was as strong as Orthodox Christianity in the Eastern Roman Empire at one point. And once you leave the Christian spectrum, there's Manichaean thinking in other religions (I believe the original idea came from Zoroastrianism.) If you're interested, there should be enough keywords in there for you to get something out of Google. There are accurate and inaccurate parts of the bible. For example, I'd consider Chronicles worthless because it's just a rewrite of 2 Samuel and Kings that's more favourable to David and Solomon and hence more suitable for the emerging Jewish nationalism the writers wanted to stress. Then there's the matter that many books supposed to have been written around 1000BC contain words not used until around 650BC (although around 1000BC is unlikely, because whilst the Jews would most likely be familiar with alphabetic systems (since they were a Semitic creation) it wasn't until around then that the Phoenician alphabet was taken.) All well and good, but archaic phrases from centuries before also survive. I read a very convincing argument suggesting that the splitting of Greater Israel into the Judah and Israel was down to something like the Reformation, the Southern variant being more austere. Whilst it's not a foolproof argument, consider that the choice of books of the bible was constrained by several factors. Some, such as Jasher, were lost until quite recently (I'm given to understand that an 8th century copy turned up in Canterbury Cathedral's archives, a relic of a visit to the east by the Archbishop) and have not been reincorporated and I believe others are still missing, then there's the Pseudographica and Apocrypha. And if we turn our attention to the NT it's still more confusing. I'm not so sure Paul would have been such a vital influence on Christianity had Christ lived - I suspect Christ might have taken different lines on some issues to Paul's Pharisaic-influenced thought-patterns. That would completely change the face of the book. Then one must consider the doubtful pedigrees of the other letters. Not forgetting Revelations, either. The book was included by the Council of Nicaea purely because of the mistaken belief that the Apostle John was the John mentioned in the title. In the Orthodox Church, it was forbidden to read it aloud before the fall of Constantinople (considered a sign of the coming apocalypse) and the Copts have wisely never recognised it. Christianity would be a lot saner without it and Hebrews would make a far better conclusion to the tale of evolution from Jewish sect to separate religion. Then there's the New Testament Apocrypha. Plenty of stuff was excluded purely due to being produced too late. Other stuff was lost in persecutions or schisms and many works were not considered for exclusion merely because it was believed they expressed Gnostic points of view. So you can see why a perennial doubter like me, not prepared to say that we can be definite about anything in this universe, who only allows himself to have strong beliefs by deciding that whilst it might be wrong, it's a thing that it's worth being wrong about, would have difficulty convincing myself that the bible is absolute truth. And on another note, I sometimes regret not taking a GCSE in RE. With Classics and History, it would allow me so many more esoteric university courses. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Monday, February 2 2004 13:49
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quote:I'd be very interested in more details as to why you believe that. And it all really boils down to whether you think God guided the whole process or not. If you don't, obviously you can come up with all kinds of authorial bias skewing the message conveyed, and pretty much prove that anything should be either put in or taken out. And if you don't believe God exists at all, obviously you'll only have one option there. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Monday, February 2 2004 14:41
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I am sorry Sir David, but where I am from, we have never heard the term Agnostic. If you can explain it to me, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me to my own peace. My beliefs are simple. I believe in a kind and loving God, not a God of war and destruction. I believe in a God that wants you to spread the message of Jesus’ teachings, and not forcefully try to impress them on others. To me, people that do that in the name of God are not true believers, but committing a grievous sin. Until I find a term that perfectly describes my beliefs and get a good explanation as to that type of religion, I will continue to call myself a Liberal Christian. I am sorry, but here, where I live, the philosophy of Hinduism, Buddhism, and the such is unknown because of the lack of information on them outside of taking a class in school or going to a library. There are no churches around here devoted to such religions, so why should the ideas have reached me unless I chose to read up on them? I have just had a vague explanation of Agnostics put to me and I feel that what you said to me, Sir David, is somewhat of an insult, for it does not at all tally with my beliefs on the matter. If you would like to discuss this on AOL, then I am open for discussion. -------------------- Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two Corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, February 2 2004 15:12
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quote:I'd be very interested in more details as to why you believe that. And it all really boils down to whether you think God guided the whole process or not. If you don't, obviously you can come up with all kinds of authorial bias skewing the message conveyed, and pretty much prove that anything should be either put in or taken out. And if you don't believe God exists at all, obviously you'll only have one option there. -E-[/quote]I would personally take something vaguely like the Quaker line on this: Jesus came because God wanted to help people find the inner light; he went to Israel instead of somewhere like Gaul or Anglia because the Jewish people had what must've been the best-preserved non-cratotheistic religion in the Empire, and he got crucified because the Romans hated him; the conservative elements of the Jewish community were deadly afraid of him, because he was a progressive, against the kind of pomp and circumstance afforded to the theocratic elite, and in favor among the Zealots, not to mention a bad representative for them for Rome. If he had lived, he probably would've been remembered by historians for being the central figure in a briefly re-independent Palestine, which the Romans would have reabsorbed in short order. He was likely divinely inspired, but I honestly don't believe that the saints and the various other writers of the Bible were anyone more than wise men who were essentially too big for their britches. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Monday, February 2 2004 15:49
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God and I have not had the closest relationship. But now I am trying to get closer with God. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1104
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written Monday, February 2 2004 15:56
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Trying to get closer by flaming Imban? -------------------- 73|-| 1|\|\/1|\|<1|3|_3 |30063y|\/|4|\| AHEM: Chance Forums! -Reality Corp. Posts: 1307 | Registered: Tuesday, May 7 2002 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, February 2 2004 18:27
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Well, if he's lived a sin-free life, flaming Imby could be a very good way of getting close to God. Specifically, Heaven. _files/tongue.gif) I worded my last post badly, I should have said '"religion is what I want it to be" attitude'. Whatever, AIM works too. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 164
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written Monday, February 2 2004 18:37
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YAY -------------------- Being sexy isn't easy, but someone's got to do it. Posts: 635 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 04:43
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quote:I'm not sure I see what you mean. Jesus died in order to free us from our sins, didn't he? He made it possible for all men to reach heaven, Christian or not. The matter of believing in him and following his teachings or not, is of paramount importance when pondering on who gets to heaven. You can be a Christian and still not get to heaven. You can be a pagan who follows God's teachings and get to heaven. That's what I think. Jesus' death was what freed mankind from it's chains. It's up to you whether you take the chance or not. Oh boy, why did I involve myself in this... _files/rolleyes.gif) Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 164
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 05:27
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Well, I now worship Halle Berry, so my theology's little whack. -------------------- Being sexy isn't easy, but someone's got to do it. Posts: 635 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1877
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 09:54
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Hmmm slightly wacked, yes... And im christian, but I got some diferent wievs than other people. Ironweed, you are my prophet right now! [ Tuesday, February 03, 2004 09:58: Message edited by: Brass Monkey aka STD ] -------------------- MDNZZZ ZMMMBIS WBLOONZ 33111-CRUSADER-4849 Posts: 662 | Registered: Friday, September 13 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 164
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 11:18
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In actual practice, I'm a presbyterian, though hardly a mainstream one... Associate Reformed Presbyterian, Orthodox Presbyterian Church... I'm mostly conservative, though my my views on sin in general have radically changed. I'm not a radical like I used to be... even if I still believe most of the same stuff... -------------------- Being sexy isn't easy, but someone's got to do it. Posts: 635 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 13:42
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Stylistic changes make it almost certain he's not the John who wrote the Gospel and whilst I can't remember my sources, a quick search wasn't able to uncover any major scholars prepared to say the author was likely the Apostle. If you want a deeper look, you might check the links at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 14:00
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From what I have read, none of the gospels were written by their traditional authors, but only attributed to them in accordance with a longstanding tradition of claiming your writings were derived from those of someone older and better-respected than yourself. Matthew, if memory serves, is the oldest, generally thought to have been written around 60 AD, while the gospel of John could be as recent as 100 AD. Obviously, those dates make it impossible for any of the gospels to have come directly from the apostles whose names they bear. I'll link to an authoritative source on this once I dig one up. -------------------- We were once Mao Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3932
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 14:09
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Sir David: Murdering people for god/ stealing, like the crusades? yeah, if they say it's in the name of god, but really its against his teachings, then they're doing it for themselves, or they're misguided. like the muslims, IMHO EDIT!!! i mean, like the ones that think all americans are the devil. or maybe the ones that wanna kill all americans. they can believe we're the devil but not act out at us. and also you who worship ilmater: isnt he forgottwen realms? i think so... i love those books. [ Tuesday, February 03, 2004 14:11: Message edited by: Pharaun ] -------------------- Clowns are baby eating murderers. My science teacher says so. Posts: 72 | Registered: Tuesday, January 27 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3801
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 14:21
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I can explain why Muslims kill Americans... Some Muslims are very strict and they consider Jihad (God's struggle) to be killing sinners. they think that if they kill Americans, who are sinners, they automatically earn a place in heaven for doing God's work. That's why Muslims always blow up busses and bomb towers full of people. Hmmm... Isn't it kind of ironic that the same religion that isn't allowed to create art because they consider it imitating God by creating perfect images has the same people who try to kill people and do God's work for him? -------------------- There is no knowledge that is not power. Take a chance at the Chance Forums! Posts: 323 | Registered: Thursday, December 18 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 14:24
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It's not the Muslim religion as a whole. Those people were pretty much tricked by Al-Queda. Not that I'm condoning what they did- I'm not. But don't blame it on the whole people. P.S. Pharaun, please check your Private Messages. Go into your profile and click the name of the message you want to read. Thank you. [ Tuesday, February 03, 2004 14:26: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- My BoE graphics archive is finally getting started! Yay! I hope you like my graphics.My BoE Graphics An absurdly fun Flash game- Refridgerator Raid! --------- The Lyceum- A board for BoE. Yes it is. Really. Stop staring at me! Stop it, I say! Oh, sorry... Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3801
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 15:54
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Isn't the Al-Qaeda overthrown now? -------------------- There is no knowledge that is not power. Take a chance at the Chance Forums! Posts: 323 | Registered: Thursday, December 18 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 16:08
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I believe that if you have had a sinnfull life. But then you realize the sin you have done. You can still go to God, and ask for forgivness. Then you can get closer to God, and change your life. Anyway if God is this being that doesn't forgive Sins, then I am going to Hell and I know there are many other people going to Hell with me. So I have the image of Jessus being this forgiving figure. I"m sure many of you have seen YUYUHAKUSHO. Espically if your from Japan or the U.S. Well Yuscay was forgiven of his worldly deeds, and he became a Spirit Detective to "Work of my legacy of worldy deeds". That's how I believe God works. I believe that a sinner can be forgiven and can "Work of" his "Legacy of worldly deeds". -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, February 3 2004 16:38
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5{ THE HELL IS A YUSCAY[/i] Yusuke. Observe: _files/ksmyu.gif) _files/ksmsu.gif) _files/ksmke.gif) PS- Considering that Japan is one of the world's most secular modern liberal democracies, I'd consider comparing anything that comes from there with religion to be folly. [ Tuesday, February 03, 2004 16:40: Message edited by: Bladesman Wasazore ] -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3694
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written Wednesday, February 4 2004 06:41
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Not to be heretical or anything, but ... Aw bloody Exile, here comes the deluge: God is DEAD! Humanity Save ITSELF!!!!! This forum need more graemlins. -------------------- And that was exactly the point of itself. Takes advantage of the easily offended. Posts: 137 | Registered: Monday, November 17 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1877
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written Wednesday, February 4 2004 10:44
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Erm... Thats... Constructive. But maybe rather... loud. -------------------- MDNZZZ ZMMMBIS WBLOONZ 33111-CRUSADER-4849 Posts: 662 | Registered: Friday, September 13 2002 07:00 |