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Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #114
And I did. But even amazing things can be improved. :P

ENkulopadia
ermaAri...

Is that a language? The mid-word capitalization sort of makes me doubt it is Finnish. :P

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #112
Er, no. "Emperor Hawthorne" may well have had a different crest than the Empire. This is a land of several imperial families - if we can somehow assume that the Hawthornes are a later branch of House Sol, then their family crest would make sense.

I'm rather sure Jeff didn't think that far, but we can always make assumptions.

As for the sword... It could *perhaps* be added beneath the sun in TGM's. As a bonus, this would set off the imbalance between the sun and crown - although I still think the crown should be enlarged quite a bit.

I made a page that shows all logos ever submitted. Non-interactive, however.

[ Monday, October 02, 2006 01:44: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #110
quote:
...That said, you did implement that hideous dark blue and yellow color scheme..
Hey hey, light on dark reduces glare and is easier on the eyes! :P

---

And indeed, what happened to "Sword through Crown" being the Empire's logo? I looked for it, and wasn't able to find it on the Encyclopedia. And it was not anywhere in the games, to my knowledge. And Riibu didn't have an idea about it either.

So where did you get that from, Slarty?

---

quote:
blogomite son of a parapsychologist from a country with humanity beaten into it mere decades ago
Sigged.

[ Monday, October 02, 2006 00:02: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Happy Jewish New Year in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #12
To make your list more consistent, you should make that: Who will not play G4 and who will?

I mean, I can't leave out an opportunity to bash it, can I? :P

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #107
Well, technically, all of them fit - size-wise. Or what did you mean? Because I'm not really convinced it fits in any other aspect than size...

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #105
Board is fixed. Filepath is stealth-edited out. And in a short time, the user name will be changed so the filepath will be quite okay.

quote:
Well, it might make more of a difference if Slarty and I weren't the only non-Aran contributors.
Yes, and the dilemma is that the three of us (the most prolific contributors) like different logos.

Basically, the Cave and Surface is an awesome artwork, but there is no way it could ever be used as an icon. The detail distracts from the content of the text, and it's not easily remembered or recognized. I'm confused that Slarty made that very argument against the Sun and Crown thing, because that one is far less conspicuous.

At best, the Cave and Surface could be used as a kind of title picture - on the front page of the Encyclopedia. When it comes to something displayed on every page, it won't work.

With that one out of the competition, what remains are the Crossed Swords and the Sun and Crown. I can't say which - both have their merits, and their faults. TGM's sun is way better. ADoS' composition balances the sun and crown more.

Meanwhile, have any of you considered making the crown just a bit more like this?

IMAGE(http://stuff.ermarian.net/arancaytar/images/sw/crown.png)

Not exactly, of course, but perhaps experiment with straight lines. Especially in TGM's proposal, the elements need to be distinct because they are so close - perhaps a straight crown could contrast with a round sun. But that's just brainstorming.

[ Sunday, October 01, 2006 22:12: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #95
The all-silvery one is giving me the impression of a rough Xerox copy or fax.

Adding another element (such as a sword or waveblade) would clutter up the logo.

The size of the crown could still be bigger, and it could cover the sun a bit more (so yes, TGM, you can blame me for saying "on top of", when "in front of" would have been clearer :P ).

Here's the graphics sheet from Avernum 3:

IMAGE(http://stuff.ermarian.net/arancaytar/images/spiderweb/sunandcrown.bmp)

And the funny part is, of course, that the crown in this picture is absolutely horrendously drawn. :P

[ Sunday, October 01, 2006 13:50: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #78
The lack of satin/burn/shades or what those patterns on the sun were actually makes it look better.

There's one point on which I agree with Slarty, and that's the position of the crown - it is a bit confusing to have the sun "wearing" it, because Avernum doesn't "wear" the Empire either. If the sun were a little smaller, and the crown a bit larger, perhaps that effect would vanish.

As for professional, there are different definitions of that. The opposite can be "playful". In the sense I meant earlier, the opposite would be "unprofessional", or in other words, unskilled/amateurish. Just because it's a hobby project for a game doesn't mean it has to look like it was made by the 10-year-old cousin web designer. :P

Also, we'd be better off discussing this on Polaris or the EE boards. Wouldn't do to tick off Drakey...

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #67
TGM's latest:
IMAGE(http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/contest/tgm/sun_and_crown1.png) IMAGE(http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/contest/tgm/sun_and_crown2.png) IMAGE(http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/contest/tgm/sun_and_crown3.png)
Now you try. :P

The size relation of sun and crown is a bit unbalanced. I wonder if that is set off by the crown being on top and in front of the other. Perhaps some fine-tuning could be involved. But it has it all, otherwise. The smoothness, the Ermarian symbols, and even colors.

Plus I like yellow. :)

[ Tuesday, October 03, 2006 21:01: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #58
Choice, it appears, can be a tricksome thing sometimes. Now I have to worry about offending people - or worse, about making an unpopular choice. It already seems that I disagree with the majority.

It's true that the site would need a single logo. One that is pleasing to the eye, but not glaring. One that is unique to this site, that identifies the project, but blends in without being obvious. One that is sufficiently abstract to be a logo without being too abstract to still stand for anything.

Augh.

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Email please in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #9
Argh! The opportunity to get rid of an invite occurs once a year, and I *miss* it! :P

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #50
IMAGE(http://stuff.ermarian.net/arancaytar/images/logos/ados3.gif)

Another mail-in submission. I'm afraid that... hm... well, okay. Not really what I pictured. Although it seems to work all right for some. This one's by ADoS.

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #48
The poll will be held once the entries have slowed down. In true tradition of Spiderweb democracy, I'll take the outcome as more of a general suggestion than an actual decision. :P

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #20
Whoa.

I'd expected this topic would just sink, so I didn't look again before now. But this is awesome!

I like what I see so far.

So let's recap:

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/TheAlmightyDoerOfStuff/EncErmGIF.gif)
Simple pixel art, looks rough, but it combines the basic elements of Ermarian (Crown, Waveblade, Crystal - although the Sun emblem of Avernum is missing). By the Almighty Do-er of Stuff.

IMAGE(http://www.geocities.com/tracihedlund/MyGraphics/SCAN003.gif)
Elaborate calligraphy. Not necessarily characteristic for the encyclopedia, but it's very elegant. By Gizmo.

IMAGE(http://i9.tinypic.com/4hl9vmc.png)
A portal. The writing is nice, but the drawing is a bit rough. By Dikiyoba.

IMAGE(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7364/untitledzc5.png)
Simple, straight lines, and a sword. The writing is a bit small, though. By Andraste.

IMAGE(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9525/encyclopedia4ps0.png)
While I was still trying to think of the official term for using an element of a picture to resemble text (because I wanted to point out how that didn't work here), I scrolled down and saw you had already gotten rid of it. Very nice, though Vahnatai-centric (bloody elitists). And he appears to be missing a mouth. By Alorael.

IMAGE(http://stuff.ermarian.net/tgm/eermariana2.png)
A mail-in submission. I really like this one, even though it is hardly related to Ermarian. Being abstract and having a white background really makes it blend in with the encyclopedia's skin. By The Great Mister.

IMAGE(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/TheAlmightyDoerOfStuff/EncErm2GIF.gif)
The cave is indeed awesome. It nicely shows the symmetry of Ermarian - two worlds, separated by tons of rock. By the Almighty Do-er of Stuff.

---------------------------------------

It's not easy. I think I'll wait another week or so in case anyone else has anything (Riibu? You have no excuse.), and after that I'll make a poll to help me decide. :)

Edit:

In order to see how they look in context, I have set the logo to randomly rotate between the submissions so far.

I realized that TGM's is without question the most professional. It looks smooth and regular, it blends into the page and still marks the encyclopedia as a unique site. But I'll wait for more proposals, and opinions.

[ Friday, September 29, 2006 15:09: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Jive Turkey in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #19
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

Nobody you would want to argue politics, accuracy in journalism, human rights or international law with. Take my word for it.

:rolleyes:

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Artwork request - Encyclopedia Logo in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #0
The last time I mentioned this, it got buried in other stuff, so here it is again:

I tore out the previous logo of the Encyclopedia Ermariana a while ago. It was made in five minutes, used artwork that may be copyrighted (off Google Images), and it didn't really fit the project (I'd actually intended it as a placeholder in the first place).

Now with the host move, software upgrade and other things taken care of, the generic [[Flower]] icon for MediaWiki is looking a bit out of place.

I know that creative and artistically skilled people are in abundance here, so I'd like to know if anyone feels like making something. :)

The picture should be between 135x135px and 150x150px large to fit in the space (look at the images I linked for examples), and should be proportioned to roughly fit in a square/circle, to avoid looking awkward. Color scheme and content is up to your imagination, but it should preferably be something characteristic for Ermarian/the E&A series. Needless to say, it must not be derived from copyrighted art - although your copyright to it will remain intact, and you'll be credited on the site.

I could offer different things in return, for example a subdomain at *.ermarian.net, a corresponding email address, or even (for those who still haven't got one) a Gmail invite. Other things open for negotiation, although I'll have to draw the line at sensual massages. :P

[ Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:58: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Notice: ermarian.net down for maintainance NOW in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #13
Edit: PPP works.
--

http://stuff.ermarian.net is available now. Technically. While good with CMS software and shell access, Dreamhost absolutely sucks when it comes to FTP and subdomains.

From now on, when you upload files, you need to put them in the folder /public/ in order to make them show up.

While browsing, you will occasionally see a non-existant subfolder "/files/" in the directory path on the site. Whenever you link to a resource on stuff.ermarian.net be absolutely sure to remove it. Don't link to http://stuff.ermarian.net/files/example, but always to http://stuff.ermarian.net/example. The former may seem to work, but it isn't reliable.

--

Edit: Filetype icons are back.

[ Thursday, September 28, 2006 07:58: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
I Bear Tidings From TM in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #4
I am also in before the lock. But only just.

IMAGE(http://stuff.ermarian.net/arancaytar/images/cthulhu.jpg)

IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ
IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ
IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ
IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ
IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ
IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ IÄ


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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Because it's been forever since the last one in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #78
Well, Nikki, you're one of the people I tackled on AIM and forced to listen to me ramble about my work in progress, afaik... :P

So having an unfinished work doesn't disqualify me?

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Notice: ermarian.net down for maintainance NOW in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #12
http://irc.ermarian.net is now once again up and running (It hasn't been since Websitesource shut it down).

The next site in line to be fixed is PPP.

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
The Doomsies in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #10
Aw. Nikki speaks up for me. IMAGE(http://www.polarisboard.net/board/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

Also...

:cool: *closes*

Or not, actually. Because I'm not evil, even though I am Imban.

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
The Doomsies in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #5
1. Anyone I'm a member of. But yours is best, Dikiyoba!

2. MWHAHAHAAHAAA. But actually, Stareye. He creeps me out. Seriously. And you didn't hear me say that.

3. Which part of MWHAHAHAAHAAA did you not get? :P

4. It is without doubt Edward "Aaargh" Shotts Mage.

5. This is Spiderweb. Here, you have to shout to have a conversation because of all the conspirators whispering and muttering in the corners. How can you pick one?

[ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 22:48: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Notice: ermarian.net down for maintainance NOW in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #11
No.

I'm still waiting for a response on how to turn off server-side scripting. Until I can do that, anyone with access to the server could use PHP to really — things up for me (and I'd get the blame).

But the Feed works once again:

http://feeds.ermarian.net/spiderweb/spiderweb.rss

Edit: And so, with some tweaking, does the Baghdad Burning feed, although you probably have never seen it.

I'm getting the hang of this cURL thing.

--

Edit: Making good progress with the Endeavor. Almost half the nodes now work as they should - and I've taken the time to get rid of most of the rubbish code I wrote back then. It's amazing how bad my php code was less than half a year ago...

Edit:

My MediaWiki installation is mostly messed up, and I can't figure out how to clean it. I'm trying a reinstall - and an upgrade to 1.7.1.

They specifically recommend against this (changing hosts and upgrading), but I have it all backed up in any case. So let's see.

Edit: That seems to work.

I'll get around to restoring skin changes, the /wiki/ thing and the images folder later. Now for some food.

Edit:

This is becoming a blog. Ew. Anyway, the Encyclopedia works as intended now. All links to it (/wiki/Article) work as they did before - and slightly better, since I used the official workaround at mediawiki.org instead of the hack I'd come up with. Images are also restored.

Only the skins need to be meddled with slightly.

[ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 03:30: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Notice: ermarian.net down for maintainance NOW in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #9
I started fixing the Endeavor yesterday evening. Some things now work; most still doesn't. The endeavor and the feeds are currently the only thing I can see, so the rest will have to wait.

Edit: It doesn't help that the new host requires the use of the curl module instead of file(), which means I have to rewrite everything that is connected to fetching data from Spiderweb. Which is a lot of things. :P

[ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 22:08: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Notice: ermarian.net down for maintainance NOW in General
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #7
http://thralni.ermarian.net works, as do all sites not mentioned below. If you see the "server has moved" notice, you need to wait a day or two for your DNS to update.

Stuff will stay forbidden. There are a few security issues I need to solve first.

Endeavor is broken until the database configuration is cleaned up. This will take at least a day.

Ditto for PPP, although the clean-up will only take an hour or so there.

Encyclopedia has a problem with .htacess and mod_rewrite and such. I'll just have to see how I can fix this.

---

Please note I'm currently "flying blind" because my own DNS hasn't yet updated. The only way I can look at the new site is by using lynx on the web server itself (I got shell access at last). When I can actually look at what I'm doing, I'll be able to fix this much more easily.

[ Tuesday, September 26, 2006 05:04: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00

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