Jive Turkey

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AuthorTopic: Jive Turkey
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #0
It has been a while since we've had a nice political discussion on these boards, so here's a question: Should Turkey be allowed to join the EU? Why or why not?

I'm most interested in hearing the opinions of those who live in Europe and maybe even Turkey.
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #1
Short answer: Yes, absolutely (that goes for Ukraine too).

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #2
One small step closer to a world government. This gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #3
Europeans are possessed of the shared delusion that culture exists. 'Charles Martel saved civilization at Tours' is widely considered a valid statement, and if it wasn't, making it 'our civilization' would immediately render it so.

That Europe - and Europeans - would probably have benefitted from algebra and modern sanitation before the 16th century isn't a factor in the analysis, because the filthy Berbers were Muslim and thus an enemy of their precious 'civilization'.

Turkey is historically and socially closer to Europe than to any other arbitrary arragement of peoples; their addition to the EU would strengthen and enrich the entire organization. But Europe has civilization to worry about.

So yes, most Americans would say 'yeah, duh'. But then again, most Americans probably couldn't make heads or tails of simultaneously resenting England's unenthusiasm for the EU and Turkey's enthusiasm for the EU. It's a slick and inoffensive racism.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 1934
Profile Homepage #4
I would say yes, but then again, I don't really understand the arguments against Turkeys entry into the EU.

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You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil
Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2238
Profile Homepage #5
I have a guy from Turkey in one of my classes. I just thought I'd share that.

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DEMON PLAY,
DEMON OUT!
Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #6
Here is a website with an opposing argument

Some people in Europe are worried that Turkish citizens will move to their countries and take their jobs (Consider the popular American view point concerning Mexico). Others are worried that the cultures wont mix (About 99.8% of the people in Turkey are Muslim.) Others don't like how America (specifically Bush) is pushing the EU to accept Turkey. Turkey has a population of about 70 million people, and if admitted to the EU, will have one of the largest influences in the European parliament as well as 10 votes to cast (The maximum amount.) If admitted to the EU, Turkey will only be behind Germany in population, and will quickly (in a decade or two) surpass them, becoming the largest nation in the EU. I'm pretty sure Turkey also maintains a healthy relationship with the US (Please correct me on this if I'm wrong.) You can understand why countries like France are afraid of an unfamiliar, pro-US nation quickly becoming the most powerful nation in the EU.

Personally, I think a lot of this is BS. Turkey is a relatively young country with a growing population, and the EU needs them. The pop. growth rate in the EU is becoming a problem, eventually there wont be enough young adults to support the older members of society. However Turkey, with its healthy growing population, can help shoulder this responsability and, well what do you know, take the jobs that most people don't want to do anyway. I think most resistance to Turkey comes from the common fear of change. Like in America, people are worried that the influx of foreign citizens will take over the country. But like in America, lets say with the Irish, immigrants have always only integrated with and added their benefits to society. With the EU's help, Turkey can quickly become one of the most powerful nations in the world, and with Turkey's help, the EU can support itself for a long time.

EDIT: Was thinking of US and wrote UN for one of the EUs...

[ Wednesday, September 27, 2006 15:20: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ]
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #7
I'm from England, and I whole-heartedly support the integration of our island into Europe, including the EMU.

And, similarly, I think that Turkey should be allowed to join. I can't think of any facotrs which might exclude it, in my eyes.

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*Name by Slarty
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6666
Profile #8
Human rights violations?Occupation of Cyprus, as well as ongoing border disputes with Greece?Unstable economy?Ineffective police force + border control?The fact that they're not actually in Europe?If Turkey is to be let into the Union, it needs a lot of work.
Posts: 353 | Registered: Monday, January 9 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #9
quote:
Originally written by Redstart:

Human rights violations?Occupation of Cyprus, as well as ongoing border disputes with Greece?Unstable economy?Ineffective police force + border control?The fact that they're not actually in Europe?If Turkey is to be let into the Union, it needs a lot of work.
1) Is Britain allowing the US to land "prison planes" full of "suspected terrorists" inside it's border a violation. I'd say yes...
2) The UK, as well as other European nations have occupied land too. Gibraltor anybody?

3) The Polish economy was hardly great when they came in...

4) Totally subjective. Is the fact that trains get blown up in London, and Brazilian guys being shot at a sign of bad policing? If so, the UK has problems here too.

5) Controversial, perhaps, but the fact that Israel is allowed to take part in the European Football Championships despite clearly not being in Europe proves that geography isn't the be-all.

That said, they do have work. But it's not that bad.

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*Name by Slarty
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #10
Turkey's economy is only "unstable" because it's growing so fast. The rest of Europe wishes they had that kind of "unstable" economy.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6666
Profile #11
I'd see a teensy-weensy difference between the points you mentioned, and what's going on in Turkey - in terms of severity, that is.
1) Amnesty's report on Turkey.
2) Granted, noone's perfect in this sence. However, I'd say it isn't very smart to have said disputes with existing members of the Union.
3) CIA World Factbook on Turkey. Look under economy . Of particular interest are:
I)Inflation in -05 was ~7,7% (as opposed to 4,5% in Bulgaria, another candidate to join the Union, and ; and far from the ECB requirement of <3%).
II) One fifth of the population is living below the poverty line.
III) The otherwise rapidly growing Turkish economy experienced "sharp declines in output" in -94, -99 and -01. => Unstable.
4) Drug trafficking. At the very bottom of the Factbook page. And then there were the bombings of popular tourist resorts this summer. I guess there's probably more, if you look for it.
5) Yeah, this one isn't really much of a real argument. Just popped into my head.
Posts: 353 | Registered: Monday, January 9 2006 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #12
FYI - Someone has to live below the poverty line. 20% ain't too shabby for a country lacking the EU advantages. What is the percentage within the USA? France? Also, using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #13
Real like what?
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #14
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2836
Profile #15
Who's Jive Turkey?
Posts: 587 | Registered: Tuesday, April 1 2003 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #16
20% below the poverty line? That's fantastic. I don't know where you live, but here it's about 30-33%.

A decline in 2001? You mean like the one that the US economy went through and rippled around the world?

Amnesty International ranks slightly higher than the ACLU on my list of supposedly well-meaning organizations.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
====
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #17
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #18
quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

Real like what?
Anything that provides all the facts, and not a generous sampling of reasons the USA currently hates/loves a given country. This always means using multiple sources and cross-checking facts as they are available. As an example, if the CIA did a factbook of the USA, it could be described very unfavorably.

:cool:

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #19
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

Nobody you would want to argue politics, accuracy in journalism, human rights or international law with. Take my word for it.

:rolleyes:

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #20
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

Real like what?
Anything that provides all the facts, and not a generous sampling of reasons the USA currently hates/loves a given country. This always means using multiple sources and cross-checking facts as they are available. As an example, if the CIA did a factbook of the USA, it could be described very unfavorably.

:cool:

See, the fact that Amnesty sometimes does that and sometimes just flat-out lies makes it very inconsistent, such as their report on the recent Israeli-Lebanon war. I'd rather not put my trust in an organization that will speak out of both sides of it's mouth like that.

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #21
quote:
Originally written by Robert Daniel Oliver:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

Nobody you would want to argue politics, accuracy in journalism, human rights or international law with. Take my word for it.

:rolleyes:

Awww, come on Aran, stop being such a spoilsport.

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #22
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Robert Daniel Oliver:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

Nobody you would want to argue politics, accuracy in journalism, human rights or international law with. Take my word for it.

:rolleyes:

Awww, come on Aran, stop being such a spoilsport.

So, you are opinionated. Big hairy deal. The fact that you ignore what I say, in favor of what you think I should have said, exposes your "reason" as the malfunction that it truly has become. But, what else should I have expected from someone with your backround?
:eek:

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #23
IMAGE(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g296/JetGuitarist89/G505.jpg)

Edit:
quote:
Who's Jive Turkey?
Jive Turkey: One who speaks as though they know what they're talking about...though they do not.

[ Thursday, September 28, 2006 15:00: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ]
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #24
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Robert Daniel Oliver:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Using the CIA Factbook is garbage reasoning. Use something that is real. :)
The fact that you poited out how crappy the CIA's reasoning is and not Amnesty's just proves how crappy your reasoning is.

Who the heck are you??

Nobody you would want to argue politics, accuracy in journalism, human rights or international law with. Take my word for it.

:rolleyes:

Awww, come on Aran, stop being such a spoilsport.

So, you are opinionated. Big hairy deal. The fact that you ignore what I say, in favor of what you think I should have said, exposes your "reason" as the malfunction that it truly has become. But, what else should I have expected from someone with your backround?
:eek:

I'm sorry, you're going to have to start speaking sense. When did I ignore what you said? I only said that your reasoning was flawed based on your own post.

EDIT: That last sentance in your post just indicates your approval and imitation of Amnesty's policy on international affairs, by the way.

[ Thursday, September 28, 2006 17:50: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ]

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00

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