A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 15:15
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quote:True that. There are people who place points in endurance and shaping and suboptimal skills and then complain that the Agent is to weak or otherwise "sucks" somehow. Or a person has a complete and total lack of a concept called tactics. And no offense to anybody here, but hitting F to reset your turn is not tactics. That's exploitation. I do agree that a Shaper should never get hit. It happens. You get ambushed,stuff happens, you wind up in fights in confined spaces, or you might have to run forward through a battle to turn off machinery like pylons. Daze is good insurance for those moments. There are also moments where battle takes places after conversation and the enemy is right up close to you. Daze allows you to gracefully exit said situation. Thinking about it, the only way to "nerf" the Agent would be to make the other classes considerably more powerful. Allow the Guardian (type) class to hit multiple enemies in a single attack. Perhaps cranking melee skill would increase the chance of getting a hit on those standing in the immediate area around you. At higher levels of training, a good swipe with a sword would hit 5 or 6 foes around you, and then allow for quick action to allow for second hits or double damage or something, Also, allow the missile skill to allow for a chance to pierce with batons or thrown weapons. Also, batons are a lock and load type weapon. Heck, allow them to have 2 or 3 shots a round and give the Guardian even footing with the Agent in terms of damage output. A well made missile Guardian with piercing missiles could hold his own in terms of damage. And allow quick action to allow you to squeeze off an extra shot once and while. If these types of changes were made to the Guardian, it would be worth it to ignore magic completely and just crank your melee skills out of the wazoo the same way an Agent does with magic skills. Also, give the Guardian his own version of the Agent's spell craft. Some kind of skill that makes all of his attacks better and more damaging. He doesn't have that now, and the Agent does. A skill like... Anatomy. Or deadly blow. Critical hit. Something. The Guardian has no generic skill booster. The Shaper and the Agent both do with spellcraft. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 15:34
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You know, maybe I'm just too good at rationalizing, but I never really thought of it that way. I figured a really fast gunslinger could do this kind of thing, popping around a corner at you time after time, and always being too fast for you to get a bead on. Maybe I've also been reading too much Dark Tower. But it's not so easy to just refrain from f-ing the monsters up, because retreating briefly only to ambush them again has to be a legitimate tactic. The only shady bit is how fast you do it. Do you insist on retreating at least three paces beyond the edge of sight, or give the monsters a slow three count before re-attacking? Or is it any less of an exploit to stay in combat mode but retreat farther after each shot, waiting for the monsters to run into my guns, knowing that they'll keep on doing that time after time until they die? Even if we always stay in combat mode until every hostile is dead, the problem remains that a fast Agent can almost always engage and disengage at will, and thus achieve the same effect of infinite attacks without retaliation, albeit at a greater cost in time and distance. Refraining from exploiting that ability would be too much like restoring game balance by just standing still for every fifth Reaper Turret, since it's not really an isolated trick, but just an application of the basic combat element of moving. Giving it up would be too arbitrary. High speed and strong ranged attacks make the Agent too easy to play, and I think this should be countered, rather than just eliminated, by adding some fast ranged monsters. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 15:59
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Stepping back and counting to three allows your energy to fill back up, allowing you to unload some heavy firepower. When I duck around a corner and wait for a turn, I go back in to combat with pretty much full energy on the next turn. I'd like to think of it has "catching one's breath." -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 16:59
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As for batons having 2 to 3 shots is a great idea. You could have fast batons and speed batons which hit either 2 or 3 different targets. And making creations more powerful. Then, whalla, you got approx. the same strength in combat. -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 17:22
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quote:This will never happen. Why do I say that? Jeff has always insisted on making every spell or ability potentially accessible to every character. When he implemented classes in G1 -- a first for him -- he still made sure that every class could use every skill. (Exception: there were a handful of spells that the Romans couldn't use in Nethergate. However, playing as Romans or as Celts were basically two entirely different scenarios, so I'm not sure I would count this.) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 18:07
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I'm still playing GF1 as an agent and still can see how it can trash almost anything. It's only weakness is that it can rarely survive an attack from more powerful monsters that a guardian will still be able to heal from and then attack. Swarms of monsters can be dazed or destroyed with searing orbs, spray crystals, swarm crystals and other area attacks. Running in haste helps keep out of monster's attack range until you can fight. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 18:11
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quote:Exactly. [ Tuesday, May 02, 2006 18:12: Message edited by: VCH ] -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4278
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 22:22
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quote:Serviles can't shape. Period. If there was a canister or something that allowed serviles to shape, I would be very angry. Ok, after reading through pages and pages of agent-theory, I've decided I don't know how to play Geneforge. I love playing as a shaper, and I love playing as a solo-guardian, but i can not play as an agent. The only spells I ever use (or bother learning) while playing are heal spells. I mean, maybe I just don't like magic in general or something, but I can't make it through a full game as an agent without cheating, its just too damn hard. I die way too much for comfort. I don't expect it to be easy or anything, but most of you are saying that being an agent is waaay easier than the other classes. And I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm just going to believe that I'm incapable of playing this game series properly, and I guess that works out to my advantage (without the need for nerfing), hooray! -------------------- Pathological Jerk Jerking at Spiderweb since 1999 Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, April 18 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 03:38
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Agents do die if you just walk up to things, then try to stand and fight. You have to use all your AP, and you have to distribute your skill points right. So on lower difficulty settings, Agents are quite a bit harder to play, and Guardians are pretty easy. But on higher difficulty settings, all three classes have to use some cunning. With Agents, cunning is rewarded more heavily, so for them the game becomes too easy on the Torment setting. Guardians are quite tricky on Torment, because they end up doing more toe-to-toe slugging it out than the other classes do. On Normal or Easy, this just means that Guardians mop the floor with things, but on Torment it often means that they are the mops. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6632
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 05:46
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quote:It seems you only need to remove a few points of spell power for the agent to go from god to ok. Magic skills above 10 counting for half might do it, like for some stats in avernum. Or for less than half if it's already like this. I dont think shapers often get a mental magic or spellcraft over 10, even includuing equipment. Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:22
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I tend to boost my Endurance as an Agent a touch more than you folks seem to. On the occasions that enemies managed to run up to my Agent a turn or two after the start of battle, a hit would often take her out. :mad: I got tired of this. If I'm playing "wrong," so be it. Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:30
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With Augmentation, Steel Skin, various magical armors, etc, you get near physical immunity and become highly magic resistant, and can clear with 300 to 400 hit points with the right gear. Why are you dying or why are you needing endurance? Are you running around with out buffing your self out with magical steroids? Heck, at that point in the game my Agents tend to walk through minefields with out bothering to turn them off. They tickle! Getting to that point though can be a bit tricky. People panic and think they must add to endurance to survive starting out. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 10:22
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That was just right at the beginning few zones. Once I get spells like Augmentation and better armor, my Agent is much more resistant to damage. But I used to have a lot of trouble starting out. Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 10:24
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Actually, that's another thing. The Basic Buff Package of Essence Armor, Steelskin and Augmentation does seem to do far more for Agents than for Shapers or Guardians. Essence Armor and Steelskin should perhaps be toned down a bit, at least, and Augmentation should do better at giving you some extra fraction of your natural health, rather than just tacking a whole lot extra on top. Shapers and Guardians really wouldn't miss this, but it would grind down Agents some more. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 10:36
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I thought I remembered the HP buffs (possibly just one of them) having an effect proportional to the amount of HP you have. Thus, guardians would benefit from it significantly more than agents. However, it may have been proportional to level or endurance but not actual HP value, in which case there is no real guardian bonus. I may be misremembering, though. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 10:37
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"Serviles can't shape. Period. If there was a canister or something that allowed serviles to shape, I would be very angry." How about if the rebels found a way to remove the block the Shapers made and enable serviles to shape, but they're really bad at it. Would you then be just somewhat irked? As time has progressed, creations have attained the ability to edit themselves (starting with drakons) to build on/undo what the Shapers started with. This is both part of the solution and part of the problem. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 10:50
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quote:This would feel a bit unnatural, but feasible nonetheless. Would they use a modified geneforge to make said alterations? And if so, are serviles close enough to humans that we might be able to use the geneforge as well? Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 11:01
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quote:You know, I find it odd that if I have the exact same level of Augmentation on both an Agent and a Guardian (Say, two points) the Agent seems to get more out of it. Other buffs as well. Is spellcraft effecting things like Steelskin and Essence Armor? I mean, I cast those and not only is there more noticeable effect, but they last longer too. And so I don't double post... All I want in G4 is the ability to use the Geneforge again. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7099
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 11:33
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I wanna be able to have creations do different attacks. I love Fyoras, but all they have is firebolt. At least have the ability to teach them one or two extra attacks. Oh, and a magic creation that heals other creations, that would be amazing. And please dont add things from Avernum. I play Geneforge, cuz I like the game play, and I no likey Avernum, because of the game play... Anyway, I'm a huge fan, love the Geneforge Series. C ya'll laters -------------------- I like everyone...I just like some people more than others! Posts: 60 | Registered: Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 11:47
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quote:Does this mean we'll be having Servile shapers in GF4? - Archmagus Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 12:03
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quote:That makes sense. It suddenly occurs to me that if only you threw in a lot of words like "agathism" and "postmodernism" into Geneforge alongside all of that philosophizing about the nature of existence, the games would read a lot like a Terror's Martyr scenario. ;) *stifled laughter* Edit: Vlish, this is Geneforge, there is no time-based expiration on the HP buffs. Also, I think that at least one of them gives a set HP bonus (though I may be thinking of A4 here myself) which would, of course, seem like a much bigger bonus to an agent. [ Wednesday, May 03, 2006 12:06: Message edited by: Ornkithopter v. Thurkyl's Recall ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 12:04
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I don't think that he meant that the serviles would be the shaper class (such as that they are high on shaping) but, that they will be able to shape, some, like a agent. Able to but not good at it. Still it's just a thought. -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 12:13
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Serviles shaping themselves: oh sheet. It was scarey when the Drakons were doing it, but now I'm used to that. And I've suspected for some time that the upper class Shapers have been doing it secretly for ages. But even those harmless, downtrodden Serviles? Say it ain't so! Except that once he says it I realize it must be. And it is also inevitable the serviles will shape themselves badly, but with extreme determination and (perhaps?) some rare inspiration. A very cool idea, especially because it may offer some interesting ethical paradoxes. If we're making requests in the hope that Jeff will read them, I also think it's time to use the Geneforge again. But what I really want is some explanation, however sketchy, of why some creations get cooked up in vats but others materialize out of thin air (like mine). It has been bugging me for three games, now, that I keep walking through all these fine, spooky shaper labs full of vats and summoning platforms and spawners, and yet I don't seem to need any such paraphernalia to make my own creations. So why all the labs and equipment? I've been imagining my own explanations, but I'd like to have an official one. Especially if it ended up playing some role in a plot. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 12:41
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quote:This sounds like multiple attack modes from some other games and I agree that it would be good to see these in Gf5. (I suspect Gf4 is too far along in development to accomodate such changes.) What I mean by multiple attack modes is that your characters and creations would have an option to use a weaker attack that damages all nearby enemies. Ranged attacks would also have a weaker multi-target mode. Or a faster, but weaker attack. There are many possibilities here. PS As for Serviles shaping themselves, I am not surprized that that's the direction in which the series is going. Considering the current state of Geneforge world, Geneforge-using ending of Gf1 no longer looks that bad. (Or at least it looks no worse than current state of the world.) -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 13:00
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Wasn't Gull Island in G3 full of self-shaping serviles? I thought they used canisters, at least. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |