A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4

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AuthorTopic: A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #25
quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.
That's excellent. Not only does that fit well with any story, and make the game more enjoyable, it also forces hardcore players to deviate from the tried and true formulas (agent pumping battle magic using firebolt, etc) and be more creative, which they will enjoy. I'm very glad to hear this.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #26
quote:
Originally written by i v. I:

quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.
That's excellent. Not only does that fit well with any story, and make the game more enjoyable, it also forces hardcore players to deviate from the tried and true formulas (agent pumping battle magic using firebolt, etc) and be more creative, which they will enjoy. I'm very glad to hear this.

All of my Agents thus far can deal with swarms just fine and come away with nary a scratch.

I hate to say this, and I know I will be pelted with rotten fruit, but the Agent type characters in the Geneforge series needs to be toned down considerably. They have been up to this point walking talking nuclear bombs.

It would also be nice if Jeff could somehow script Loyalist Agents to behave like my Agents. If I was playing a rebel shaper type, I know for certain that I would dread running in to an enemy agent that follows my blue print. Charm, Terror, Daze, clouds of acid and fire. That would be terrible to run in to.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6754
Profile #27
I personally like insurmountable enemies. Perhaps someone you meet at the beginning and really want to kill, but there's no way you could.

Also, the multiple-stage battles were very cool. Like Litalia doing her "Akhari! Take me!" the first time you beat her down.

I've never really had to make the choice between battle and diplomacy; I'm glad that's better-defined. Usually I was able to break all the doors and traps, talk everyone into submission, then go back just to kill everything that moves. Lots of experience, never had to choose one path.

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One of these words is mispelled.
Posts: 284 | Registered: Tuesday, January 31 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #28
"Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

This change should extend to all future games".

Very cool. Larger groups would be more realistic. After all why are all the monsters just randomly covering a certain area?

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #29
Of course we have seen something of this already - there are a few zones where you meet "patrols" of monsters. In GF2 & GF3 these tended to be linked to some sort of a mechanical device to deactivate the patrol. But I welcome the extension of the principle to other zones.

For me, this should mean blessing magic becomes more useful. The problem with "fight one monster, end combat, walk a short while, fight second monster, end combat, etc" is that repeatedly casting haste, blessing, is a waste of essence. Blessing magic will be more worthwhile when you know you are fighting a group of monsters rather than a succession of individuals.

A little bit closer to Exile? (where wandering monsters spawned in groups...)

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"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6632
Profile #30
quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

Once change I did forget to mention, though. I am making an effort to replace swarms of individual monsters with groups. I want to reduce the "walk 10 feet, tiny fight, walk 10 feet, tiny fight" syndrome.

This change should extend to all future games.

- Jeff Vogel

Me likey a lot! Now I can play parties with less annoyance.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7023
Profile Homepage #31
I don't really have any suggestions for the game, but I do have a comment about it.

I'm more than confident in your ability to produce another amazing piece to the Geneforge Series. I base this confidence on the extremely enjoyable storylines, the environments, the characters, and action within the games thusfar...not to mention the continuous playability of the games in general.

I just wish you(Jeff Vogel)the best of luck and hope you enjoy making them as much as I, and plenty of other people, enjoy playing them.

P.S. Congratulations on completing the first 5 areas.

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~Rob Savage~
Posts: 15 | Registered: Wednesday, April 12 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #32
Very good news indeed, I must say that I am impressed with what I'm hearing. Having groups of combat (call it event based combat) rather than the traditional hack-fests are really nice. I enjoy it when combat makes me think.

Good to see new creations and character classes, keeps the game fresh. I'm enthusiastic with what I see because things were feeling like the same game over and over again.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #33
WOW! Maybe I'm gonna like Geneforge for a change. Weather effects... Sounds cool. I'm looking forward to this, I really do.

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #34
This is so nice to hear :)

More in-depth plot, new creations and spells, and five character classes sounds great. Having the PC's actions rather than dialog options determine their allegiance is a nice improvement too. I also really like the idea of the creatures being grouped rather than randomly spread out, as I like battles to be based on strategy more than strength alone.

[ Monday, May 01, 2006 07:22: Message edited by: Dolphin. ]
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #35
I, too, am looking forward to the "patrol group" style combat. As someone mentioned before, the patrol areas in Geneforge are especially fun because they really force the player to consider how he or she will approach the zone. Does the pay load up on spell buffs and creations to tackle the enemies head on? Does the player look for the opportunity to pick off members of the patrol who get too far behind? Does the player attempt to avoid combat all together and sneak around them?

So far, I think we all agree that this group-based combat will create a more memorable and fun experience.

Hurray!

Z

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #36
Enemy swarms are part of what makes Agents so powerful.

Starting from G1, with the gate battle and all those augmented Sholai, the more enemies there are the easier it becomes. Charm one or two of those Sholai and the battle was pretty much over.

Same deal in G2 and G3. The more enemies present, the better the odds of total mayhem. Especially with spawner types.

If G4 has massive swarms, the Agent will continue to reign supreme on the battlefield. The more enemies there are, the more damage an Agent type will potentially be able to do. After all, the enemy is the best weapon an Agent has. They are expendable and cheap...

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7002
Profile #37
Besides Dominate, what about Aura of Flames? If enemies are in groups, that means they're all clustered together. Perfect fodder for Aura of Flames.

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Polaris
Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7002
Profile #38
Besides Dominate, what about Aura of Flames? If enemies are in groups, that means they're all clustered together. Perfect fodder for Aura of Flames.

Edit: Whoops. Must have clicked twice.

[ Monday, May 01, 2006 11:01: Message edited by: Mr.Bookworm ]

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Polaris
Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #39
Aura of Flames is not enough. On Torment, you have to do something to hold the enemy back from you.

On Torment, enemies become so tough that they typically can not beat themselves. That 800 hit point augmented Sholai, instead of being your worst enemy, becomes your best friend after hijacking his mind. On lower difficulties, this effect is really not noticeable. Nor is it needed really. An Agent could sneeze and destroy entire legions on lower difficulties. But her power grows as the game difficulty climbs. The higher the difficulty, the more power an Agent type will have.

Stomp in to a room, Daze, Dominate, Terror, whatever works, scatter your enemies and thin them out, get them focused on each other, and they will completely ignore you, which allows you to cut loose with clouds of acid and flames in total safety. (One of the many reasons why Agent types need no endurance) On Torment level, high level enemies go through their own ranks and slaughter their former allies like pigs.

In short, the more dangerous the game becomes, the safer a properly built Agent will be.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #40
What about groups of many weaker enemies?

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

In short, the more dangerous the game becomes, the safer a properly built Agent will be.
Unless, of course, Dominate is weakened.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #42
I am not convinced nerfing Dominate is the answer. A smart Shaper uses it too, though it is not as effective. Nerf Dominate, and for other classes, it would be to weak to be useful.

It's the Agent as a class that needs, well, a spanking. With a nerf stick.

As for the point with swarms of many weaker enemies, they will all die horribly with but a gesture or two. Strong Daze followed by multiple chain castings of Aura of Flames. Or let go of an acid shower or two, charm one, and run away to hide round a corner. Come back a bit later and pick up loot.

The problem is very simple. The Agent is all power with no known liabilities. And I am afraid that the mage or agent type class in G4 will turn out the same. I certainly hope that this is not the case. I want something new and different. There is nothing that the Shaper or Guardian types can do that the Agent can't do better. An Agent doesn't even need to deplete her essence to summon creations. It is a waste of time. If summons are really needed, they can be Dominated. Agents are better at melee than the Guardian as well.

I'd like to see a big change in the pecking order of power for G4.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #43
I think this problem crops up with magic-heavy strategies in all of Jeff's games, though. Jeff relies heavily on spell point availability to balance the power of magic. Admittedly, the use of essence in addition to spell points for spells in Geneforge is a very nice way to do this. Nonetheless, this means that a mage in any game with a pile of energy potions or essence pods is rarely going to be challenged. This is why swarms at least have a *chance* of stopping an agent: if they're too weak, they may simply have too little spell energy to fire their favorite spell off enough times. Individual enemies can just be picked off one by one, with plenty of time to restore energy.

I guess this is kind of symptomatic of modern RPGs, where magic is dispensed Monty Haul style. RPGs where you actually have to conserve your MP, where you get beaten up little by little and have to endure, are a thing of the past. I just expect more from Spidweb.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6754
Profile #44
Good observations by Delicious Vlish ... Dominate could be a lesser-lasting spell, perhaps? Takes 2 turns to cast maybe. And lasts just 5. Less dependant on skill.

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One of these words is mispelled.
Posts: 284 | Registered: Tuesday, January 31 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #45
I don't think that changing the strength of Dominate
would solve the problem. I think the answer would be in weakening the strength of the actual agent.
And maybe increasing the power of guardians and shapers? Or whatever classes are in Geneforge 4.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #46
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Agents are better at melee than the Guardian as well.

Really? I can't see how that's possible. But then, I have not tested it.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #47
Decreasing the power of the Agent is easier said than done. The Agent increases in power as the game gets harder and the enemies get tougher. She is only as strong as her enemies. Cranking the difficulty up to Torment actually makes the Agent easier to play. I don't know how to fix that. I mean, how do you tone that down?

Scale back her magical abilities and you only hurt the Shaper type class in the long run and their ability to support their creations with the occasional bit of fireworks. You really can't tone down her melee abilities. They are not a big deal to begin with. And shaping is a non issue. Her strength, magical ability, is held hostage by the Shaper class. You can't really tone back magical damage with out seriously compromising the Shaper.

I'd like to see a Servile Cultist type class and see how that goes.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #48
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Decreasing the power of the Agent is easier said than done. The Agent increases in power as the game gets harder and the enemies get tougher. She is only as strong as her enemies. Cranking the difficulty up to Torment actually makes the Agent easier to play. I don't know how to fix that. I mean, how do you tone that down?

Scale back her magical abilities and you only hurt the Shaper type class in the long run and their ability to support their creations with the occasional bit of fireworks. You really can't tone down her melee abilities. They are not a big deal to begin with. And shaping is a non issue. Her strength, magical ability, is held hostage by the Shaper class. You can't really tone back magical damage with out seriously compromising the Shaper.

I'd like to see a Servile Cultist type class and see how that goes.

Edit.

Agents far outclass Guardians in melee. Their cranked blessing magic, various buffs like augmentation and steel skin, mass energise, strong daze, and all those factors allow them to rip enemies to shreds while being practically immune to physical or magical damage, moving at incredible speed, and stabbing things at a whim because everything around them is frozen solid from daze. While the melee skills cost a bit more, they level out quickly. The Agent's ability to buff themselves in to god-like stature far outshines anything a Guardian could muster.

Crap. Second edit. This should have been an edit of my first post, and not a quote. Argh. And I have no mod powers here to fix my dreadful mistake. Somebody please clean this up if they could.

[ Monday, May 01, 2006 18:37: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ]

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #49
:) Quoting yourself. But guardians have the same augmentation abilities. In G3 my guardian by endgame had all the blessing magics, and augmentations such as Battle Roar, steel skin, and Essence armour. Those coupled with speed and normal blessing makes the guardian easily equal to any Agent. After all doesn't a Guardian get melee bonuses? I still don't see how Agents are superior.

Edit: The above combined with 450 Hps, and 110% armour, with 100% resistance to all effects, should easily overpower and Daze spell.

[ Monday, May 01, 2006 18:58: Message edited by: VCH ]

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00

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