A Few More Advance Words On Geneforge 4
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 1 2006 19:11
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I forget the exact details, but it was hashed out in a thread a long time ago. The Guardian starts off with better melee skills, but the Agent quickly catches up. I forget the exact details, but it comes down that they both start spending the same amount of skill points to upgrade their skills past a certain point, and the Guardian's advantage doesn't hold out for very long. The difference is, the Agent spends far fewer points maxing out both her magic and her melee skills, and still has plenty of points for other things. The Guardian on the other hand, spends an obcene amount of points to accomplish the same thing. Does anybody remember the thread I am talking about? Somebody good at math actually laid out the costs involved and explaied it far better than I could. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Monday, May 1 2006 19:18
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Yes. Anyone who knows were said topic is please post a link. [ Monday, May 01, 2006 19:18: Message edited by: VCH ] -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 1 2006 19:33
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That was me. The thread is Agent vs. Guardian. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Monday, May 1 2006 19:54
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Interesting, I see your point. Though I still stand beside the Guardian. But reading some of those posts reminded me that some areas did take a fair amount of time and effort with a guardian. Perhaps Agents are the ultimate weapon, but Guardians are surly the ultimate character. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 02:55
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I still don't understand why an Agent, that can block every enemy with a Strong Daze, must have more powr than a Guardian. The magic is good, I admit it, but the only magic that a Guardian need is the Healing Craft, IMO. Take, for example, this situation: your character is surrounded by rogues. What would you do? AGENT: Use a magic that "stun" (like Strong Daze), then, maybe with speed, take out all the enemies. GUARDIAN: Occasionally use Heal, it will take out all enemies, one at turn. CONCLUSION: Then I think: the Guardian is more strong aganist one, powerful enemy; the Agent can wipe out pack of enemyes easily. So, I'm wrong? -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7023
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 03:27
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You all should make a whole new post about the agent/guardian thing :P -------------------- ~Rob Savage~ Posts: 15 | Registered: Wednesday, April 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 04:13
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quote:That's Right. Why don't make "resurrect" Slarty's old topic? -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 04:31
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Yes, you're wrong. Your guardian strategy sounds like it will fail miserably unless you are playing on a low difficulty and fighting enemies weaker than you are. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 05:55
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It's not the thread I was thinking of. Somebody did a blow by blow accounting of skill points and costs to raise melee skills and total skill points spent. At something like level 10 or 11 melee skill or something like that, both the Agent and the Guardian start spending the same ammount of points to continue to increase the skill in question. In short, the Guardian's advantage for cheaper melee skills dries up to quickly to be truly effective. The Agent could "max out" to the effective cap on skills just as easily as a Guardian. I can't remember the thread. :confused: -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 08:33
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quote:Hmmm... Well, my Guardian was always more strong than the enemyes he beat... I'm playing on tricky, anyway. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 08:45
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Swarms of strong enemies are going to be the downfall of any melee types. Especially if G4s combat system borrows from AVIV. I just thought about that and shuddered. You would have to cut through them one at a time, all the while they are wearing you down. I predict much pain. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 08:58
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What I was trying to say was: Just make the agents weaker. Not magic in genaral. Such as giving them less hitpoints and a few less energy points..... Also giving guardians and creations more power. -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 10:02
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Fewer hitpoints wont matter to an Agent. Adding even a single point to endurance is a waste in the first place. You can't hurt what you can't hit. Making magic weaker might slow the Agent down a bit, but the problem is, if you nerf magic as a whole, the other classes suffer far worse from it than the Agent ever will. Guardian and Shaper types depend on what bit of magic they have to get by. I was thinking that Shaper types on both sides of the war might even shape creatures designed to deal with Agents. Magic immunes. But then I realised that Agents are just as deadly with a sword as they are with spells. Magic immune swarms might slow them down a bit. Shades and undead types can pose some trouble, but not much, nothing more than an irritation. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 10:22
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I don't think that's necessarily so. I think the Agent's advantages are really just a few very effective tricks, which could be toned down without hurting anyone else. For instance, give the attack spells a higher base damage and lower increment with spell strength, so that the maxed-out Agent has less advantage over the modestly magical Shaper. Possibly even put a ceiling on total damage, which won't bother anyone but Agents. Give most major enemies infinite resistance to mental attacks, so that Dominate can still win over middle management layer, and in that way be a worthwhile tool in the box, but can't break the game by converting the big guys, no matter how much you pump your stats. Shapers and Guardians were never able to Dominate the big guys anyway, but Agents would lose a trick. Put in more de-buffing traps, areas, and enemies, so that Agents can't run through entire zones Hasted from one spell. Guardians have to renew their buffs more regularly anyway, so it won't hurt them so much. Have some of these effects only affect small-s shapers, so that a Shaper's creation army is immune. Another option is to create some otherwise mild enemies with effectively infinite Quick Action, so that the 'glass cannon' approach won't work with them. Or, to prevent the Agent's favorite 'creeping death' attack, some 'stealth' enemies that are untargetable until after they have attacked. Scatter these freely, but maybe include a Spore-Rod-like device that can reveal them, but is charged, so that Agents can survive but be humbled. I'm betting that one of Jeff's extra classes is going to be a stealth specialist, and that might include anti-stealth. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 10:50
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Good points for the most part. The glass cannon approach and the infinite quick action deal would not be effective though. An Agent goes around in nothing but combat mode if you are smart, creeping forward a bit at a time. When you engage something in combat mode, so long as you have 5 AP left, it's your turn. So even something with 100 quick action wouldn't get the drop on a well played Agent. I'd like to see an Infiltrator class. Stealth and mental magic out the wazoo. Daze, dominate, terror, stun, etc, as well as the standard unlock and such. But no battle magic available. Such a character would be a load of fun. The inability to wear armor. Physically fragile. The counter to that would be a Servile Cultist type, with battle magic but little else. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 11:38
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quote:This would be an especially awesome character if the stealth system was redone. The current system of running past guards very fast is rather counterintuitive, not to mention too easy. Perhaps there could be an Exile-esque invisibility spell, and then rework the system so that if you see something, it sees you. You'd have to cast it, sneak into closets or something to hide out and cast again, then jump from hiding place to hiding place. That'd be cool. Of course this is all irrelevant if Jeff has finished the engine already, which he probably has if he's done the first five areas. But we can hope. Have you finished the engine, Jeff? -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 11:43
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How would getting the first shot help if daze, dominate, and other mental spells wouldn't work on high level things. :confused: for example: I walk up to a high level monster I shoot, then he blows me to kingdom come. next example: I walk up to a low level monster I shoot, then he's dead. the last example: I walk up to medium level monster I shoot, then we have a long drawn out battle in which I win, but, it was a very close battle and I only won because I shot first. But, I could do the same with a shaper or a guardian. for example2: I walk up to a high level monster he shoots, and I'm blown to kingdom come. next example2: I walk up to a low level monster he shoots, and misses then I do and he's dead. the last example: I walk up to medium level monster he shoots, then we have a long drawn out battle in which he wins, but, it was a very close battle and he only won because he shot first. But, the same would happen with a shaper or a guardian. Just a thought. -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 11:59
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Staying in combat mode and relying on the fact that it's your turn is what I meant by "creeping death". The stealth attackers that aren't targetable until after they've shot you is a solution to this. If they don't actually do much damage, they're no big problem for Guardians or for Shapers using beefy creations as scouts. But they would be a pain for glass cannon Agents. Just having fast-moving, super-high-QA enemies with ranged attack would have a similar effect if they were aggressively hunting you, because they could hit you on their turn by closing from beyond visible range -- in other words, using "creeping death" on you for a change. And the high QA should let them defeat the "infinite moves" tactic of double-tapping "f" whenever your AP gets down to 1. I guess the moral of my story is that I think hummingbirds with peashooters could humble glass cannon Agents without having much effect on the other classes. And forcing the Agent to put even just a few more points into Endurance and Parry could render her mortal, because knocking a few points of Spellcraft and Battle Magic away from a godlike Agent can often make the difference between taking out all the enemies and letting one get through. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 12:10
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The most advanced piece of equipment in the Agent's arsenal is perhaps her running shoes. If you blast something and for whatever reason it just doesn't work, and it could potentially eat you as a snack, you run. Run like mad. Let it chase you. And you snipe it from a distance, ducking around a corner, blasting away, and then running away. Run and close a door. The key to playing an Agent is to never present your self as a target. So even if one high powered enemy survived the initial assault, it would never survive the battle of attritition. You don't just stand there like a dummy and let a powerful enemy take pot shots at you. You keep moving and pop off a shot when the chance presents it self. Yet another reason why Agents, and to a lesser degree, missile guardians in G3 are so powerful. Exceptional applied damage at a range. You don't go toe to toe with something that is going to beat you up and steal your lunch money. As for the invisibility spell, I have one better. Since we know that Agents can cloud the minds of their enemies, spells like daze short out the brain, how about blindness? Overload the optic nerves. The enemy would know you were there once they were blinded, but they could not see you, allowing you to scamper past. Although getting to close to an enemy would still probably allow them to take a swipe at you with a sword. Or since there are weather effects, how about atmosphere effects? Smoke bombs. Poof! -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 12:20
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Since I'm here right now I'll answer Major: The thing with a properly built Agent is that all the examples are the same, because it's always her turn. She's on permanent Speed and she has huge Quick Action. So she steps just into range of an unsuspecting enemy of almost any size, and hits it for enormous damage with, say, Searer. It's still her turn because she had at least 12 AP, so she has at least 5 left now. If she's feeling brave or confident she could attack again and go for a quick kill, but if she's cautious she retreats a few steps to get out of sight of her enemy, then her player taps "f" twice very quickly. Before her victim has had time to move, she's got a fresh 12 AP. Loop until done. She can repeat this process as many times as it takes to kill the thing, because every turn she lands one attack on it, and it never gets any turns. The only way this doesn't work is if (a) she picks a fight with something that has higher Quick Action than she does, or (b) the battle takes place in a small space with no corners and no doors. Case (a) is rare if you're conscientious in pumping QA. It happened to me once, fighting Akhari Blaze. That was a tough fight, but by then my Agent had 18 AP, so she could hit him each round and still run far enough away that he couldn't get to her to hit back. Case (b) is rare because the game maps just aren't built that way. But I guess they could be: some doors close on you and take at least a turn to re-open, and some doors never re-close. So you could open a non-reclosing door at the end of a narrow hallway to reveal a closet in which lurks a hasted Rotdhizon; and meanwhile the door at the other end of the hallway has closed. Now you're in trouble. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 12:28
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The ANTI-AGENT ROOM. Like SoT mentioned... A long hallway or a room. Walls fall away to reveal some serious nasties. Stunners. As the walls drop away, all of the doors close AND lock. I am not even sure I could figure out how to survive that. Nowhere to run to baby... No where to hide. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 13:44
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Ah, that is a situation in which a Guardian would shine. Normally when playing a guardian I just stand there and there and talk on the whole lot at once. On higher difficulty settings I don't stand in one place very long. If that doesn't work zipping in and out with speed always helps. Then there's always the lure monsters into "death trap" back-alley-tactic. I still say a tower of HPs combined with powerful healing spells makes the Guardian more powerful. Maybe you could take out a whole room with daze and some powerful magic but eventually magic will run dry, if enough monsters are present." You can't hurt what you can't hit". But how realistic is never being hit. Eventually some powerful monster is going to get a good blow in and sap away most of the Agent's HPs. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 14:32
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quote:The bolded part here is an exploit of combat system, so if that's the main reason you are arguing for agent to be nerfed, just don't abuse this exploit. Fight-end button wasn't intended to give you infinite APs. It was intended to ... leave combat when fight is over. Since this isn't a competitive game, Jeff doesn't have to change the whole game to get rid of an exploit. Just don't use it if it makes the game too easy. Since I haven't played Agent in Gf3, I can't comment on how she compares to other classes, but it sounds like most of your invinsible-agent strategies could be defeated by nerfing Daze (my Shapers and Guardians did fine in previous Geneforges with no mental magic at all), and stopping yourself from abusing fight-end trick. (Or Jeff not letting the player end fight while an enemy is chasing him.) PS In general, I'd prefer it if Jeff added even higher difficulty level beyond Torment, instead of changing the game balance to make normal level challenging for the best players. [ Tuesday, May 02, 2006 14:39: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 14:45
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Personally, I have never used the fight end trick. It's worthless for my play style. The Agent is powerful enough to deal with anything with out having to resort to hitting F. The worst I do is leave a zone in combat mode if I have to. Nerfing Daze would hurt other classes far more than it would hurt the Agent. With out Daze, fragile Shapers run the risk of something beelining past their wall of creations and taking them out. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 2 2006 14:53
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quote:I guess this is just a question of playing style. Just like you argue that a correctly played agent would never get hit, I'd argue that a correctly played Shaper would never get close enough to battlefield for anything to get in range to attack him. I did fine as both Guardian and Shaper in Gf2 with no mental and battle magic at all. I also got through half of Gf3 with a similar shaper (lost interest in the game after finishing Dhonal Island). You might be right that an Agent is generally overpowered, but I am wondering whether less experienced Agent players feel the same way. [ Tuesday, May 02, 2006 14:54: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |