Avernum 4 Complete Wish List

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AuthorTopic: Avernum 4 Complete Wish List
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #75
If a game has a combat engine designed to handle vehicles and mounts, well and good. If not, tacking them on is probably a bad idea. The concept is good, but if it's just thrown into A4 without proper attention, it would be a Bad Thing.

Still, trampling over the puny goblins with your elephants is a very, very good image.

I have no interest in management chores in RPGs. Jeff apparently doesn't either, judging by his Grumpy Gamer articles. Heck, he even grumbled about having to remember a torch while dungeon crawling (despite Exile/Avernum's heavy light requirements!). If a horse could starve to death, mine would, and I would get frustrated.

—Alorael, who would like to cordially remind you that the Code of Conduct forbids even masked profanity. Everyone at Spiderweb is expected to just say "No!" to ****.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #76
Jeff seems to hate a heck of a lot of things about games, hm?

Additionally, f*** you Alorael.
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #77
Hmm. Verelor, you may not be aware of this, but Alorael is a moderator, and so am I. He is quite right about the profanity, and swearing directly at him is not a very bright idea. Consider yourself warned that if you do this again you may be banned.

This has been an interesting topic. Let's not let it fall apart now.

You know, Vantanas sounds like an interesting setting for A4. Anyone want to toss out ideas about which continent it should be set on?

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #78
Yes, Jeff does express a lot of hate. His column was (is?) called the Grumpy Gamer. What do you expect?

[Edit: Some of this comes from Jeff's interviews, too. Look around the main Spiderweb site in links and in the news.]

—Alorael, who would post a link if he could find a live one. Google still has a few cached, and you can find some links to individual articles if you look hard enough. Play around with "Grumpy Gamer" (not to be confused with the blog) and "Jeff Vogel."

[ Thursday, June 23, 2005 18:05: Message edited by: Evil Autocrat ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #79
32. Item descriptions like in the Exile games, also different weapon classes such as stone bronze iron steel. I now there's iron and steel at present.

33. Outdoor cut scenes, perhaps an army overrunning a city whatever suits the situation.

34. Some method of lighting your way at night. I hat stumbling around in the dark.

35. Some new military equipment for the empire army. I'm sure they could come up with some form of a scorpion or trebuchet.

36.A new exciting race something like the Vahnatai were.

37. Massive battles your party plays a minor role in, such as defending a fort. Said battles may be impossible to win by having your group captured etc.

38. Street crime graffiti in the big cities mugging in the back alleys. More realistic to real cities.

[ Thursday, June 23, 2005 20:08: Message edited by: VCH ]

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #80
Seems like some good suggestions, though some of these I've already done. I will post the one about bringing back Exile's item descriptions and the street graffiti (as long as the game doesn't actively describe it to you, it's just there), as well as being able to equip your keep or fort or army, which would be a part of running one if the player so chooses.

When A4 comes out it will more than likely fall short of what these suggestions hope it will be, but we can dream.

Edit: I think I'm changing the part about weapon classes, VCH. Unless I'm insane, I remember bronze weapons. I think I remember stone ones from Avernum 2 (or was it Nethergate)? Rather, it'd be better if we got advanced weapon classes such as: Mithril, Adamantium, Vahnatai-craft, perhaps a rare and powerful metal from Avernum called Avernite that has innate magical properties of it's own (dark blue would be a cool color for that).

[ Friday, June 24, 2005 06:30: Message edited by: Verelor ]
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #81
I want one thing in all SW games forthcoming. The quests need to be pruned if/when they are broken. Kill a person that gives you a quest and the quest still shows up. That is annoying. Very annoying. Add a feature to remove quests from your list. Do it! Now!

*this message supported by the ibws local #435 (brick wall soundproofers rule!)*

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WWtNSD?
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #82
Yes, the quest system needs a little revamp. I think I will be adding the suggestion for a better quest system a little later on when I come up with the specifics.

[ Friday, June 24, 2005 09:16: Message edited by: Verelor ]
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #83
I think that the quest system itself is fine, but the implementation is a little wonky.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #84
I would like a lot of spells of non-combat funtionality. You know, all teh cool, fun ones. Summon food, teleportation, passwall (ability to pass through non-magical walls and barriers), waterwalking, wall of force and wall of prismatics (certainly combat-appliable), as well as the traditional clerical ability to turn undead as a non-spell but a special ability.

All of this is real fun stuff that was missing in Geneforge and Avernum but some of it saw some actual presence in the Exile series.
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 878
Profile #85
quote:
Originally written by Verelor:

16.- Some very masked and criptic Geneforge series references thrown into the dialogue could give Spiderweb loyalists the reward they deserve.

Am I the only person who spent much time carrying around the Xian skull in Avernum 3? Cause that's already been done.

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Warning: Posts may contain misspellinks and typo.s
Posts: 409 | Registered: Sunday, March 31 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #86
Yes to the quest system revamp. There's nothing worse than having a quest that is impossible to complete. We should be able to delete any of them.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #87
If the fourth game will be well into the future perhaps imteresting technological innovations such as the very first firearms could come about.
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #88
32. There are already item descriptions (just not in BoA, same as BoE) and materials. Mithril and adamantine show up (the latter only in Exile, I think). And jade and onyx. Vahnatai equipment, to the extent that they make equipment (exclusively cloaks, razordisks, and waveblades) exists.

33. If outdoors cutscenes are necessary, I'm sure Jeff will use them. I can't think of anywhere where they would have helped in Avernum.

34. Casting Light helps some. Waiting until the night ends helps more.

35. How often does the Empire engage in siege activities? It controls the surface already, and it only had a brief war with Avernum.

36. I disagree here. A new race is a good trick once. A new race again is repetitive.

37. Your party, by virtue of being strong enough to depopulate cities, never plays a small role in a battle. See Ornotha Ziggurat. But yes, battles could be fun if done right.

38. Spray paint doesn't exist in the world of Avernum and the Empire probably executes anyone it finds painting a tagline. More poor district awfulness would be a welcome touch though.

Spells: Creating food (Manna) exists in Exile. Teleportation exists in the form of Word of Recall, which returns you to the starting town in E3/BoE. Any more generic teleportation, passage through otherwise impassable barriers, or the like would make game design much more difficult. Being able to keep players out with a wall or make them wait to be able to fly to cross that river is not a bad means of keeping party wandering in check.

Wall of Force (both as a wall and as Magic Barrier) exists in Exile, and Prismatic wall is such a D&Dism that it doesn't belong. Same with turning undead. Besides, since classes don't exist as such in Avernum, there's no "cleric" to have unless you make it either an ability or a skill. The skill would be a waste and the ability would probably seldom see use.

[Added: The very first firearms and even much later firearms were inferior to bows and crossbows. Either they could be unrealistic, which is common in games, or it could be a cheaper skill to learn, which would be realistic but slightly weird. I doubt A4 will be in some distant future, though. And who would want to carry around powder when someone else could be carrying a wand that shoots fireballs?]

—Alorael, who is a proponent of keeping Avernum away from D&D. And classes. Classes are a form of oppression that should never be allowed to seep into Avernum. Even Geneforge comes perilously close.

[ Friday, June 24, 2005 13:38: Message edited by: Fear or Favor? ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #89
39. Tea totting mutant dragons selling drugs to the Empire. Operating fake road checks so as to steal the unsuspecting citizens transport. "Do you have alcohol sir?" "No". "Oh well we're still going to seize your horse".

[ Friday, June 24, 2005 13:58: Message edited by: VCH ]

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #90
quote:
Originally written by VCH:

Tea totting
I'm just guessing here, but it is possible that you mean "teetotalling" (that is, they do not consume alcohol) rather than "tea-toting" (that is, they wield tea as a weapon).

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #91
38. You know, cities in the Roman Empire were covered with graffiti. I don't think medieval or Renaissance cities were as comletely written-on, but hey, the Empire's an empire, right? This would not be unrealistic. It might require a bit more graphical work than Jeff would like to put in, though.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5165
Profile #92
pleeaassee jeff, please dont change the engine

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he who puts his head inside a dragon's orifice is likely to get a lot of...
Posts: 104 | Registered: Saturday, November 6 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 3171
Profile Homepage #93
Na, having guns in it would make it sorta silly. Personally I'd like to see some cooler swords (not just in stats but also with better picures)
Posts: 776 | Registered: Friday, July 4 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #94
Exile and other DOS-based games don't even work on my modern WInXP running computer anymore. If it exists in Exile and it was possible back then, it's certainly possible now.

I do think I remember Exile having the ability to turn undead (but it was a spell).

There has always been graffiti and always will be in the racier parts of large cities. Spray cans ahve nothing to do with it.

Avernum is story-based, so your cahracters don't necessarily ahve to be the ones holding the guns (although it would be nice as a very cheap skill to raise), they just exist.

If Jeff doesn't change the engine (which he will), it would be the ultimate way to express the lazingess factor, which must always be considered! :D
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 6019
Profile #95
I've been playing the series since Exile 2 was new. A great series.

Avernum, to me, was a dumbed down version. The graphics got marginally better and the content was slashed and burned. Dozens of spells reduced to pratically three types of spells, hurt, heal, hurt a few people. Less party members. Horrible experience caps. Altogether so much less...

I still to this day occasionally run an old Exile game. 6 party members, REAL stats/skills and deep down it was a very sturdy RPG. I forgive the interface, graphics, and complete absence of music based on the fact that the RPG elements are so strong and enjoyable.

Please, please PLEASE change something about the game. Avernum is bland, it has no music, graphics, or content. Not every game can be amazing looking, or sound terrific, or have great gameplay. But a game should have at least ONE of those things.

I'm a huge fan of the classic RPGs (obviously since I love Exile) but you can retain the classic story and content AND have things that make the game pleasing to look at. There is absolutely no reason to not have better graphics in your games.

So I guess in summary, here are the MAJOR things that I'd love to see in the next game you make:

- Music. Oh sweet merciful Jesus, please just add some basic midis or something. Just a bit of effort will turn your deathly silent games into something more enjoyable.

- Content. Stop cutting everything that was great from Exile :( I want a larger party, I want more items/equipment, I NEVER want to see an experience cap again. I couldn't finish any of the Avernum games because I hit the level caps before I was 75% done the games. Talk about fun suicide for RPGs when you tell the user "hey, if you want to see the ending you have to do it without gaining levels or earning any gratification for spending your time playing this game". Also, money caps? Ack...

- Graphics. This isn't even remotely important, not as much as content is. A game with lots of content doesn't need graphics. Avernum hasn't had either though.

I'm a programmer too. In fact Jeff, many years ago I began making my own Exile style games after playing yours when I was only 12. Obviously Exile was a game so well done that it inspired me personally to make these games myself. Please just bring back what was good about Exile. There are graphic engines available online (free) that already have better capabilities than your avernum engine.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, June 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6002
Profile #96
You are right about that. Avernum series, especially Avernum 3, were awesome examples of game design. Unfortunately, they mostly only had graphics and ingterface advantages over Exile series in the long run (and total windows compatability). Even if Jeff finds that in his new game only 5 of these suggestions are realisitically programmable and implements them, the game would be vastly improved.

That's exactly what would make Avernum 4 the greatest crpg ever and what my examples sum up to: being playably more like Exile, and technologically more like Geneforge 9which includes a true choice in the outcome of game events, few things are more amazing than a game the player is compelled to replay 3 or even more times), and adding a lot of stuffing in between.

Maybe I should add a few suggestions for what A4 SHOULDN'T have in order to make it a great game as well.

[ Saturday, June 25, 2005 10:02: Message edited by: Verelor ]
Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
Profile Homepage #97
I would like to see the magic system get a complete overhaul. New spells, new types of spells, hell, maybe even a new class of magic besides priest and mage.

Not only did Exile have a greater range of spells, it also had a greater range of types of spells. I miss buffing spells like envenom, special effect spells like sleep cloud, mass paralyze, and wall of ice, and spells of mass destruction like firestorm.

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Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!"

—Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 6019
Profile #98
quote:
Originally written by Ornk of Death:

I would like to see the magic system get a complete overhaul. New spells, new types of spells, hell, maybe even a new class of magic besides priest and mage.

Not only did Exile have a greater range of spells, it also had a greater range of types of spells. I miss buffing spells like envenom, special effect spells like sleep cloud, mass paralyze, and wall of ice, and spells of mass destruction like firestorm.

There were so many spells. It didn't matter that half were useless, it was great trying to learn them all and trying them all out. Everyone knew that icewall wasn't going to win over any battles, your turn and mana were always better spent with directly offensive spells, but it was plain fun putting an ice wall over a group of low level monsters.

There wasn't even an area affecting spell in all of avernum. Bring back the fireball already :)
Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, June 25 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #99
Exile has undead turning in the same way as Avernum: spells.

Avernum has a single area spell: Cloud of Blades. It's not a fireball. I agree that the endless spells of dubious utility were fun, and area spells actually made combat require a little bit of thought.

Since the XP cap vanished in A3/BoA, I doubt we'll see it again. But you never know.

—Alorael, who isn't sure about free graphics engines. If the graphics aren't free, they're still a cost. If they're large, it hurts Jeff's mission of making his games downloadable to everyone. If they're free, then he risks having his game look like it's made with free graphics, which is "less professional" or something. And if the engine is 3D, Jeff has to program around that. 3D isn't Exile/Avernum, either.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00

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