Avernum 4 Complete Wish List
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 17:53
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I think he was more pointing out that Jeff does not have much of a record of listening to suggestions at that point. The "someone will disagree with anything" was a transition. But it's fun to dream, which is why people actually bother doing these Wish List topics. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 17:53
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Jeff says fixing bugs is bad because people don't want to have to upgrade their game every time he fixes something. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 18:21
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I'll be happy with a new engine for A4 and Jeff pushing it to the limit. Whatever he makes should incorporate some of the things done in BOA 3rd party scenarios, only better. He should totally rework the look of the game, new graphics menus etc. But then I believe he is. I quite liked the item descriptions in E1-E3 perhaps they could return too. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 22:24
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Blades has spoiled me. I don't think I'll even bother playing the A4 demo. If I had a wishlist, it would be something like: 1) Actual characters. 2) Storylines that are complex without being complicated. 3) Combat that is vaguely challenging/interesting. But I don't really care. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 22:29
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Ash, you don't even play computer games anymore. Why even bring it up? :P -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 23:24
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I'm still a gamer... I'm just a gamer who isn't playing games at the moment. ;) Seriously, I really do mean to get a computer and play all these scenarios that have been made since I moved, and maybe even make a scenario of my own. I just don't care about Jeff's games any more. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, June 22 2005 23:28
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Right. OK, that's maybe what YOU want. The animations of the Avernum series I find the best animations there are! I find it kind of relaxing when you know for sure that the enemy won't do anything without you taking your turn first. That is also my biggest objection against Geneforce (although the story is good). About the Mac I agrre with what the others say. if jeff wouldn't make Avernum 4 for the Mac, he would lose quite a few customers. including me! -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 04:24
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First off, thank you for making this thread, Verelor. It's refreshing and this board really needed that. Secondly, we acknowledge that progress can be made, but we're wary, since with progress comes the potential to focus more on eye candy than on story and character development. I think from Exile to Geneforge we've seen a trend towards more 1-dimensional characters, and we tend to associate that with the modernization and newer graphics. Personally, I don't think that 'more advanced' graphics make a game better. I think that the Exile graphics are better than the Avernum graphics because they help provide a real atmosphere. You feel right in the midst of your characters, rather than looking down on them from afar in Avernum. And with such things as strategy elements, etc., most of us do not mind those things, but it's that they have no place in Avernum. Maybe in a new game, but Avernum doesn't need that, and I don't think that it would add much. I don't think that the games are monotonous - I think that they do a relatively good job of advancing the storyline quickly while still giving many hours of gameplay. I think that increasingly similar encounters with rogues in Geneforge is definitely heading towards monotony, but in the Exile and Avernum games, there is such a large variety of everything that things never get boring. You won't fight goblins for the first half of the game and then empire archers for the second half - there are so many levels of difficulty, and the monsters get stronger as you do. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 06:49
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quote:I actually completely agree with you about this. Though Avernum's graphics happened to be more complicated and were isometric (poor movement), Exile's still somehow remain better after all these years (though Exile's graphics still handle some things like water, pits, ledges, etc. sort of emberassingly). Where do you get the idea, though, that as a game's technology gets better the story and characters get proportionately worse? Let me site a good example: mostly every Final Fantasy game improved technically over it's predecessor yet looked better and better (and Jeff says he hates music in games). You SW people have heard of Final Fantasy before, right? :P Just kidding. I am definitely still for Avernum 4 having a soundtrack. However it'd be best if it were handled this way. Let us look back upon an old gem called Lords of Magic, a several years old PC title. It had background music most of the time that didn't do the least to disturb the player (it was more that soothing, elevator type of music, but more...fantasylike). Then when a battle begins in the overworld map (and only in the overworld), like LoM Avernum 4 should have some really cool, exciting battle music, with a few alterating selections, so it wouldn't get repetitive. So everyone would be happy, Jeff would of course give us the option to just switch it off. And perhaps have A4's sounds to not be so quick, taplike, and abrupt. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 06:53: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 06:49
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quote:Need I sum up Exile/Avernum 1? "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of bandits!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of goblins!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of nephils!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of bats!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of aranea!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of sliths!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of demons!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of drakes!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of giants!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of soldiers!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! There's a cave/tower/fort of golems!" *hack, slash* "Oh, look! I won." Exile 2 offers something interesting until you hit Vahnatai homeland- then it's just more of the same, except you add more soldiers, hydras and some chitraches to the mix. Exile 3 has plagues. Do you even know why this sort of thing is shouted down in BoX scenarios? And saying that Geneforge is "nearing" monotony is like saying that our president is "nearing" conservatism. Geneforge is as monotonous as being damned to the level of hell where you are alone in a room and push a red button for the rest of eternity. Jeff needs more spice in his games. He managed to design well until after Anwnn in Nethergate- it's not like he can't possibly do this and still make a game that sells. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 06:56
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To sum up TM's post: Wonk wonk wonk. I think that the Exile games were very fun. Everything you were seeing for the first time, and things changed as you went on. There is a certain thrill in sanctifying an evil altar of undead to protect Formello, and then going on to beat up a cave of Nephilim. Especially because you need to change your tactics against them. Not everything needs to be deep and insightful or radically different. quote:But Jeff doesn't have the means to create better graphics without losing focus on plot. I'm just talking about what's happened with his games. He's trying to do what he can't, and the gameplay is suffering while it attempts to look nicer. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 06:58
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quote:I disagree. In Geneforge 2 and 3 and even 1 every day was a new adventure. Maybe you're just bored. You might be somewhat right about Exile 1, but that was a first effort and very good for one. Also, what is so bad about having plagues in your games? What? Valley of Dying Things was some of the best Avernum gaming out there. Did you ahve to diss almost every Spiderweb Software game in existance in a single post? Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:02
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That's TM for you. I disagree about the Geneforges - we're a bit jaded from our Blades of Exile experience (which was quite wonderful, I might add), and I found Geneforge 1 to be quite involved and interesting because it was new, while Geneforge 2 and 3 started out interesting and new, but degenerated into boring, repetitive drudgery. EDIT: What an amazing run-on sentence. About plagues: the monster plagues are fine in my opinion, and so is Valley of the Dying Things. They are a bit clichéd (think the Bible), but I wasn't thinking about that while trying to negotiate between the troglodytes and giants. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 07:03: Message edited by: Drakefyre ] -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:06
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If they ever decide to make a Blades of Geneforge (and by God, they'd better not call it that), that would be so great. I'd have about the only game I need for the next 2 or 3 years :D Here's to hoping SW considers the idea (which is probably too much to hope for). Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:07
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I have no doubt that they are considering BoG, and that it will be out in several years (once BoA is starting to die down). -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:12
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Several years? Hm that's enough for the release of a completely new, original trilogy (though I ahve absolutely no idea what it could be like. Horrer adventures might be a nice idea). Unless they think releasing Geneforge 4 and Avernum 4 and potentially 5 is a good idea in that period of time, which would be a very poor idea indeed. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5567
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:38
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All I want is more spells , a bigger game, more items, the Vahnatai as a playable race and possibly more characters in the party -------------------- How many shapers are there? Why is Drypeak controlled by Zakary? Why is Barzahl a Guardian? How does the Geneforge work? What's as small as nothing? Why am I asking stupid questions? -------------------------------- Shaper teacher : "DON'T TOUCH THAT!" BOOM!! apprentice :*little voice* "Sorry..." --------------------------- CSM RIFQ Neopets Do join, it's fun. Do you know what is the answer to the greatest question ever? It's here. Posts: 576 | Registered: Wednesday, March 2 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 07:44
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Here's to Spiderweb designing Avernum 4 off of the Geneforge engine. I do think that would be perfect. Otherwise why even play Avernum 4 when Blades of Avernum has spoiled us over? Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 08:22
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That's what we were wondering ourselves. And Geneforge 4 and 5 will definitely come - that series is nowhere near over. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 09:09
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No one has designed an Avernum-style game for BoA yet. BC was sort of close, but it had less direction than Avernum and a little bit less of all the things that make Avernum good. The reason to play an A4 while BoA exists is that no one designs in the same style as Jeff, and some people like Jeff's style. I do very much hope that GF4 and GF5 aren't just duplicates of GF3 and GF2. I really felt that GF1 was interesting, but GF2 was pretty much more of the same with a few engine improvements, and GF3 was yet more of the same with a few more engine improvements. I got pretty sick of the same thing over and over again by GF3. I just hope that A4 does the things that made Nethergate and the AT fun. GF just doesn't do it for me, and if he makes A4 into a GF game, I'll be pretty annoyed. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 09:10
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"I think that the Exile games were very fun. Everything you were seeing for the first time, and things changed as you went on." Changes? Tell me, who has actually been convinced by those crummy "ruined towns"? Monster levels, I suppose, go up- and hey, you can unlock new dungeons to kill 'em all! Don't get me wrong. The premise of Exile is interesting, the Vahnatai are an interesting invention, and the plagues almost sorta (but not really) had potential. All that SW sales indicate, though, is how good JV is with his "shareware cut-off" points. Beyond that, the gameplay is as rigid as one could wish and as monotonous as one is in bed, except without the entertainment value for the participant. "There is a certain thrill in sanctifying an evil altar of undead to protect Formello, and then going on to beat up a cave of Nephilim." Look, mommy! I'm performing eugenics for god and country! Sheesh- it's like living through every action of every RPG stereotype. If I want to do that, I may as well unzip my pants and watch back-to-back marathons of Conan the Barbarian and Zelda: Warrior Princess. "Especially because you need to change your tactics against them. Not everything needs to be deep and insightful or radically different." So 'Bless + Haste + Repel Spirit' becomes 'Bless + Haste - Repel Spirit'? Admittedly, that's as complex as most BoA scenarios have been, but that's still pretty bad. "I disagree. In Geneforge 2 and 3 and even 1 every day was a new adventure." Ooh! Ooh! Now that the Fyoras are dead, let's kill the Clawbugs! And then Cyroas! And Battle Alphas! Gotta kill rogues! Gotta kill rogues! "Valley of Dying Things was some of the best Avernum gaming out there." ... ... ... ... Next argument. "Did you ahve to diss almost every Spiderweb Software game in existance in a single post?" I didn't. Nethergate is fine stuff (and so is, for that matter, BoE's A Small Rebellion)- which is why I even bother complaining. JV can and has done better. "About plagues: the monster plagues are fine in my opinion, and so is Valley of the Dying Things. They are a bit clichéd (think the Bible), but I wasn't thinking about that while trying to negotiate between the troglodytes and giants." The trogs are probably E3's best plague. But if you'll look at the rest of it, you have the slimes which and roaches which are vaguely interesting, the giants which are one massive (no pun intented) chore and a glorified hackfest, the golems which are genuinely repetetive and include machinery because it's just gotta be there, the alien beasts are worse than the golems since their tactic is "charge and bite you", and then there are the Vahnatai, who are the black men of the Spidweb universe. "What? Your wife was murdered? In her sleep? And there was no break-in?" "Yeah. I saw a Vahnatai next to our bed with a bloody waveblade, muttering something about crystal souls before he teleported away." -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 09:18
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You know, someone can like different things from what you do without being a complete idiot. We're playing computer games, here. Would you argue with someone who likes different kinds of food than you do? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 10:12
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Marx' Martyr, maybe you shouldn't be playing Spiderweb Software games or most games altogether if you hate them so much. Perhaps you require an in-game genre changeup every 15 minutes but that won't work out for a small shareware games publisher. Go go far away from this discussion. Noone's even responding to the original topic anymore! Please stay on topic! Let us please get back to the original Avernum 4 dream list and not worry about whether Jeff will or will not implement the suggestions! That's why it is a simple wish list: you just suggest what you want to see or not see in the next game without worrying about the technicalities unless it's just out of the question. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 10:15: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 10:15
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But a discussion of Spidweb trends and what makes games fun is a much more interesting topic. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 10:25
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Frankly, unless you are an experienced Spiderweb junkie, you will be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a screenshot of 3 different Avernum games which game is which. This is what risk-free game design policies get us. Not even being able to tell differences between titles without close examination. Tomb Raider, Mario Party, Pokemon series to a lesser extent are all guilty of this sort of stuff. Frankly, I think the important thing is being able to make everyone happy. While it is important for Jeff to stick to his artistic visions, one of the best ways to improve games and one of the worst ways not to is to design around the feedback of your fans. I believe someone mentioned earlier that Jeff almost never visits these forums, though that is an all-important step in good game design. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 10:26: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |