Avernum 4 Complete Wish List
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:10
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quote:Mostly that means that their engines are very similar. I do remember a fair number of individual dungeons in A1, A2, and A3, which is probably a better judge of their merit. I could play with the same general interface and approximately the same engine for a long time — that's what Blades fans do, after all — but if all the towns and dungeons are completely faceless, I'd get pretty sick of it after a while. A number of AT towns and dungeons really stood out — even in A3, the towns were really outstanding (Lorelei, Gale) — and in Nethergate, even more did. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:26
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So it has been confirmed that A4 will use a different engine? Hopefuly the gameplay will resembe Geneforge a bit more. And will be a completely different experience. The story should really be different from the 3 current games. If it were told far into the future (it would be exciting to be able to revisit the entire world and see how drastically everything has changed in perhaps 80 years) and from a far diferent angle if possible (I would guess the Empire point of view, since Vahnetai is far too much to hope for here) with at least a Geneforge amount of choice as to how the plot evolves. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:34
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I believe people that are close to JV have confirmed a new engine. Though I've never seen an official mention of that. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:41
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quote:The first post of this thread has links that explain how we know what we know. quote:God, I hope not. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 11:47: Message edited by: Manhood Typing Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:46
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And why the hell not? What is so wrong with being able to have nice animations and real-time out-of-combat exploration? It worked flawlessly in exactly 3 games I dont think I have to mention. You damn conservative. I didn't specifically say make it Geneforge but without the geneforge, I just said it would be an improvement if the gameplay resembled it a bit more. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:47
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Because I don't like the gameplay in GF. Not everyone does. EDIT: I failed to delete enough of that quote. It's not the "different" part that bothers me. It's the "Geneforge" part. Also you might want to calm down a bit. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 11:50: Message edited by: Manhood Typing Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:49
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Let's hope for an engine perhaps surpassing Geneforge. A4 will likely spawn A5-A6 so the engine should be something great. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:52
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Also, if he is going to release Avernum 4 (something he himself once said he'd never do), he'd better make sure he releases it as soon as possible, actually. The further and further he waits to release it after BoA, the more and more the entire Avernum story will clash with itself. In my opinion a Nethergate 2 or a compeltely different game saga would be a perfect choice at this point. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 11:57
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Not everyone like Geneforge's gameplay (which is still really similair at teh skeleton level to Avernum), but most do. As for surpassing the Geneforge engine, that'd be splendid. Getting technically almost as good is what is important, however. Rather than keeping Geneforge and Avernum's gameplay as seperate as possible intentionally, how bout just doing what makes the game most fun? A4 spawning a whole new trilogy? Unless this works something like the 6 Star Wars movies, I want no part of it. All grand tales must know when to stop. I personally also hope that simce A4 will not be an Exile remake like all the others, that will not ahrm it since everything that is designed will ahve to be built from the ground up rather than remaking and touching up concepts. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:01: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:11
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Since Exile is for all intents and purposes the same setting as Avernum, and since BoE has been out for years and generated plenty of story, I think Jeff has already shot continuity in the head. We've discussed it before. I also dislike Geneforge. I don't like real-time at all, I don't particularly care one way or the other about animation, and I just don't like the slightly different mechanics. No secret doors? No outdoors? No thanks. —Alorael, who agrees to some extent with TM. Nothing in Exile/Avernum is innovative gameplay, and very little of Geneforge is. If you're playing for that, you're playing the wrong game. What they have is setting and world-building. Sure, it may not always be carried as far as it could, but it's there and worth seeing. (Incidentally, this is one reason why I like A1 more than A3. The caves are a different setting. The surface is a boring, generic setting, and all the repressiveness mentioned in A1 vanished.) Nethergate has the most atmosphere at all, and despite gameplay almost identical to Avernum's, it's considered a success. So there you have it: innovative environment, not innovative programming or game design. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:13
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For one, I am not a fan of the real time movement in Geneforge. Turn-based is a good thing, and I would prefer that Avernum stay that way. Maybe what Jeff means by 'a new engine' is a return to Exile ... wouldn't that be nice! Alorael - playing A3 after A1 and A2 makes the surface a new setting. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:20
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No, it doesn't. It's new to your characters ("This... is a tree!") but not to you as a player. The places are new, but it's back to completely unoriginal fantasy setting. The caves in Avernum 2 aren't new anymore, but what they lack in unknowns they make up for in seeing how things changed. —Alorael, who missed Fort Avernum and also missed it being called Fort Exile. At least Tor made it out even if he decided not to hand out goodies anymore. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:23
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The new engine being more like Exile? I would sure hope to God it isn't. No matter who you are, you ahve to agree that Exile is a large step back from Avernum in every way. This is supposed to be an evolution, not a degeneration. Exile is horribly dated now, looks a mess, and is simply not fit anymore for even fans of classic games like Ultima 2 and Wizardry. By new engine I am altogether placing my bets on something far from Geneforge but yet closer. Also, in the surface being an extremely wondrous and alien world to the characters, it takes the player back and makes them think just how amazing their own lives truly are. Things we do not think about suddenly become interesting. Jeff says screenshots and info will arrive in a couple or a few months, and they will tell everything. And well, if it does turn out to be a lot more like Exile than anything, well, I will be damned. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:26: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:26
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quote:For whom? In practical terms, fun cannot be measured absolutely. What's fun for you may not be fun for me, and vice-versa. I'm not against Geneforgizing Avernum because I want to keep them separate; I'm against it because I found Geneforge less fun than Avernum. And you'd be hard pressed to verify the statement that most people agree with you, not because you're wrong, but because you have no way of knowing that. quote:A lot of people here don't agree with that, though. I like Avernum more than Exile, but a lot of people don't. And the Exiles still sell relatively well, according to Jeff. EDIT: I do think that A4 will look a lot like GF. That's not to say that we have to like it. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:27: Message edited by: Manhood Typing Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:30
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Regardless, if the new engine turns out to be a lot like Exile it will still be totally lame. Seeing as how we are just irreversably off topic here I would request a forum admin or mod delete this topic or set it back on track or something. After a few replies everythign just got out of hand. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:32
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Looking like Geneforge is a fine thing. I'll be the first to admit that Avernum's graphics were a step down from Exile's where characters and monsters are concerned. Geneforge is much prettier. Having animations that slow everything down would not be so nice. Having a check-box for animations/no animations would be simply lovely, actually. It would come close to making everyone happy. —Alorael, who just stumbled upon the remarkable resemblance beween Fallout and Geneforge in many respects. Real-time wandering and turn-based combat, dialogue fun based on stats-skills, (ostensibly) being able to win through wits rather than mass carnage, etc. Plagiarism is a time-honored game design trick, and at least he picked a good game. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:34
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quote:You might notice that you're speaking to forum admins and moderators. We're the ones who got it off track in the first place. :P In all seriousness, don't try to control the flow of conversation. If you want to bring us back to the "wish list" concept, make a couple of new wish list requests, and you may manage to direct us back in that fashion. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:36
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And a checkbox for music/no music and completely redone sounds taht dont sound so jerky and emerassing to show to your friends and I will be a happy camper. No matter what, it had better be different. Also, if 2-d sprite animations slow down your computer when you play, it's not the game, it's YOU. Starcraft has had beautiful Geneforge-quality graphics for almost 10 years now since release and that worked nicely on my last computer before my last computer. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:48
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It's not that the animations trouble my computer. It's that the animations take time, as animations must. In Avernum, you press a button and your characters have relocated almost instantly. It's a convenience issue, especially when you have a whole map to walk across. Starcraft has animation and needs it because it's a real-time strategy game. Geneforge isn't, and the combat isn't real time. Nor would I like it to be. If it were, though, then real-time, animated walking would also be necessary. Jeff has claimed that he avoids music also because it makes the downloads significantly larger and he doesn't want the games to be inaccessible to those still on dialup connections. He hasn't mentioned the cost, but hiring someone to make your music probably isn't high on his lost of priorities either. If you really want music, play your own. (On this, though, I agree. An optional and additional download of music wouldn't hurt. I can see why Jeff doesn't do it and I don't mind, but with the right music it could be nice.) —Alorael, who would have to lock almost every single thread if going off-topic were so criminal. Conversational drift happens. Conversations would be pretty boring without it. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 12:50
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4 new suggestions have been added to the list! Please leave a comment and if you have a soul left in you, make up a suggestion of your own. So noone remembers Lords of Magic: Special Edition? Eh. Too bad, then. I do believe that LoM was one of the most perfect PC titles ever made. They just got everything right in that gem of a game title. [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:53: Message edited by: Verelor ] Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 13:03
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27, which I missed before: Like being able to pick new traits every few levels? Sure, why not. Sounds like Fallout perks to me. Then again, I don't really see why either. 28. Not worth the effort if it doesn't effect the whole game. Unless it's going to be Nethergate on a larger scale, I can live quite happily without it. 29. A custom house? Sure. Rank? Already happened to some extent in the form of clearance. Political power, forts, and minions to command? This isn't an RTS game. An Avernum RTS could be neat (and it could be awful), but A4 isn't it and I've seen very few RPG-RTS mixes that were worth the effort. 30. Discrimination drives away customers. What do you really want here? I can't think of anything that gender would plausibly effect except skills, and that's a setup for angry customers. Some dialogue changes? Maybe, but Avernum's setting has established gender equality already. Cosmetic details would be okay, but again not worth the work. 31. If there were mounted fighting in A4, maybe. If your vehicle doesn't change your fighting ability, though, there's no need for much variety. Camels in the desert would be realistic but unnecessary. —Alorael, who can barely keep track of his boats and horses anyway. He'd be sure to lose something if he had to remember where he left camels and elephants too. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 13:08
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Fine then. You can just keep saying no and no to all sh**. Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 13:43
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27. Eh, perhaps. This could be incorporated into the character abilities to make abilities useful. 28. (Not everyone agrees about multiple endings, btw.) Maybe. I can't see this happening in a way that I would like, but it's not inconceivable that it could. 29. Maybe do quests for some sort of organization, like the Scimitar in A1 or the Anama in A3. But actually earning ranks might be interesting, like gaining different levels of clearance in A2. Putting that all together might work. But I can't see actually building a fort or becoming some sort of military commander. That just seems un-Avernum. 30. Maybe, but I'm not sure how. 31. I'm with Alorael on this one. quote:Generally, wouldn't you expect someone to say no to sh**? :P [ Thursday, June 23, 2005 13:44: Message edited by: Manhood Typing Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6002
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 13:57
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Thanks for remaining open-minded btw. Ok amybe camels are out but horses, while they must be taken care of with food and other things like characters ahve to be and can die adn take hits as well, they would provide many speed and combat adventages. Elephants are very slow and can panic easily but expeially for ranging characters can provide a multitude of combat advantages. Ships would work jsut as they did in A2, except they would be large enough for many-man crews, and can be armed and encounter and battle sea enemies like large sea monsters and even pirates! A seperate battle system wouldn't be necessary, something like the current Avernum battle system would do ship vs. ship combat a fair amount of justice. As for actually building your own fort, that's jsut not going to happen. Rather taking control of an already existing fort or town or a military unit for a while is still viable. :) Posts: 131 | Registered: Wednesday, June 22 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, June 23 2005 14:05
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Sea battles sound kind of cool. You could have an outdoor combat town — er, set_out_fight_town_loaded, in BoA terms — that had two ship floors on either side of the town with bridges in between. It wouldn't even require any engine modification, and it probably could be done in BoA. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |