Illegal distribution on the BoAC

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AuthorTopic: Illegal distribution on the BoAC
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #0
Sigh.

As many of you know, I am not particularly fond of the self-proclaimed "Blades of Avernum Center." I have a number of issues with it and its admin, Overwhelming, the most important of which is that I do not have direct control over the manner in which my work is published there. I release my scenarios and articles via my web site, which means that I can edit them whenever I want. I release scripts via the Lyceum's Codex, which means that I can edit those whenever I want, too. I can fix any problems as soon as they crop up or at my own leisure. But at the BoAC, I would have to wait for Overwhelming to update whatever of mine is posted there.

For this reason and many others, I asked Overwhelming to remove my work from his site. I did this via PM when the BoAC returned to operation almost a month ago. I used PM because I wanted to be discreet about this and not cause a stir. He flatly refused. I have asked him again repeatedly, and he has ignored me, citing his own personal dislike for me as his sole stated reason for refusing to comply with my request.

This is both immoral and illegal. I own the copyright to my scripts and articles, which are text documents that I personally created, and he is distributing these documents without my consent. He refuses to deal with this issue in private, so I must now make it public.

I do ask for your support in helping me gain control over how and where my material is distributed. I do not know what we should do about this, except perhaps to declare Overwhelming a persona non grata until he ceases his illicit, unlawful behavior. I did not wish to make a fuss about this, but he has had nearly a month to comply, and despite repeated messages, he has refused.

Overwhelming, please stop this now.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #1
Does anyone pay any attention to the BoAC? If nothing else, you encourage him to download your crap "illegally" by putting so much attention on the issue. If he says no, okay: What the hell can you do to refuse, other than give him attention that raises his hit counter?

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*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #2
*i could ban the guy. I think this is sufficient justification.

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Rate my scenarios!

Areni
Revenge
To Live in Fear
Deadly Goblins
Ugantan Nightmare
Isle of Boredom
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #3
Overwhelming: please comply with Kelandon's request. Until you do, no advertising of the Blades of Avernum center (links, endorsements, or otherwise) will be permitted on these boards. If you do post a link to illegal material (e.g. the Blades of Avernum Center), your account will be suspended until said material is removed.

Also, I will restore rights to edit your profile once the illegal material has been removed. Just reply or PM me personally.

[ Tuesday, February 08, 2005 14:18: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5362
Profile #4
I think its wrong what overwhelming is doing, but it's not really illegal. Its not as though you actually have a copyright or patent to your works. As long as he acknowledges that its your work, there's really nothing illegal about it. But you're right that it is wrong, and he should probably be punihsed (like the whole banning thing) untill he changes his policy.
Posts: 59 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2238
Profile Homepage #5
I don't think he means illegal as in "federal investigation"-illegal. I believe it's more of a "quit being a jerk"-illegal.

If he refused to take your stuff down because he simply doesn't like you, then that's just childish and you should send ninja assassins to his house.

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DEMON PLAY,
DEMON OUT!
Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #6
Kelandon does hold copyright over his scripts, and what Overwhelming's doing is illegal. Legally, if you create something, you automatically hold copyright over it unless you formally release the copyright to another individual or to the public domain.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #7
So yeah, I meant "illegal" as in "technically illegal, even if it probably isn't prosecutable."

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5362
Profile #8
if anything you write or make would get an autmoatic copyright, then reallym nothing would need a copyright or a patent. It costs money to get those. You don't get them automatically.
Posts: 59 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5415
Profile #9
aliklik, sorry, but you don't understand how copyright works at all. You pay to REGISTER a copyright nationally. Copyrights DO NOT have to be nationally registered. Most countries in the world recognize that the simple act of creating something automatically gives you a legal copyright the moment you make it. Asasuming Blades of Avernum Center is based in one of those countries, he is breaking the law by refusing to remove the material.

A lawsuit would cost a lot of money, but it is something that could be done. Beyond that, if the BoAC website is hosted on a server based in the United States, you can file a DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998) violation notice with the host and have the site yanked if the copyrighted materials are not removed within 24 hours, by federal law. If it's not in the US, you can try complaining to the host anyway, and some of them will still shut them down.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #10
If you seriously want to follow this through, here's the link to contact the BoAC's host, including for reports of Terms of Service violations:

http://www.squarespace.com/contact/

(Obviously, their ToS forbids hosting of, or linking to, stolen copyrighted material.)

The following links are to all of the unauthorised materials (including scripts, articles and scenarios) which infringe on Kelandon's copyright:

http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/changedialog.txt?fileId=22117
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/flamer.txt?fileId=22252
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/selfdestruct.txt?fileId=22631
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/spitstates.txt?fileId=22632
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/dehydration.txt?fileId=28982
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/numericinput.txt?fileId=22251
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/lever.txt?fileId=22112
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/searchstep.txt?fileId=22114
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/specdeath.txt?fileId=22250
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/specdoor.txt?fileId=22291
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/terrainscript.txt?fileId=22113
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/Basic+Scripting+For+Complete+ Beginners.txt?fileId=22293
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/resource/Cut+Scenes+A+Tutorial.txt?fileId=22122
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com /process/Redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fadsl.xl.pt%2Fangelo%2Fboa-center%2FTools%2FHigh+Level+Party+Maker.zip
http://overwhelming.squarespace.com/process/Redirect? url=http%3A%2F%2Fadsl.xl.pt%2Fangelo%2Fboa-center%2FTools%2Fhlpm.sit

I suggest you warn him one last time first before doing anything that could get his whole site shut down. We should try our best not to be malicious.

[ Tuesday, February 08, 2005 21:39: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2238
Profile Homepage #11
Bah!

Slay him!

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DEMON PLAY,
DEMON OUT!
Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3978
Profile #12
Didn't *i just say that no one should link to the stolen material???
Posts: 125 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #13
Sorry, but we're going to need those links if it becomes necessary to file a DMCA complaint.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #14
Kel -- If you are interested in pursuing action, let me know by PM or AIM. If so, copy down the links, tell me, and I will have them deleted.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #15
I know that he doesn't check these boards often lately, so I think I'll wait a little while before pushing farther than I have already.

I think I shall perhaps send him a message alerting him to the existence of this thread, however.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4238
Profile #16
FYI:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5005
Profile #17
quote:
(from that Copyright website) Don't rationalize that you are helping the copyright holder; often it's not that hard to ask permission.
And it's not that hard to acquiesce to the copyright holder's request.

[ Friday, February 11, 2005 15:54: Message edited by: Wizcozski ]

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Beware the Were-Rabbit!
Posts: 45 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4637
Profile Homepage #18
Gee... So many lies and half-truths in a single post by Kelandon.

1. We only changed words once (it's true that he sent two other PMs which I didn't view and reply because I've been away).

2. The reasons he claimed were not the ones described in his post. If he had given me that motive, I would probably take it off. The reasons he gave me were insultive and envious. Somewhat childish, I should say.

3. The only truth in the post: I refused. For many reasons I didn't and I don't bother to explain why. He knows.

4. About Kelandon's works hosted in the BoAC site:

a) Scenarios (HPLM):
quote:
2. GRANT OF RIGHTS

a) Subject to the terms of this Agreement, each Contributor hereby grants Recipient a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, distribute and sublicense the Contribution of such Contributor, if any, and such derivative works, in source code and object code form.
b) Scripts: They were based in spidweb's copyrighted scripts. If you consult the link already posted by Novarius:
quote:
U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.
For more, consult the site.

c) Articles: These are the only works Kelandon has the right to ask me to take off the site, although he can't claim the reasons he told you above... But it's for the other reasons you don't know. ;) But i'll take them off if asked again in this thread, by the author.

5. Except one scenario by another author (sorry, I forgot at the time and never recalled again to ask for it, but I assume you won't mind), I've asked permission to host all files in the BoAC site to the respectives authors, including Kelandon.

6. There are other false claims that I won't address, because I won't bother about it.

7. You should know both side's stories and reasons before making your judgement.

Overwhelming

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Visit the Blades of Avernum Center
and the Beta Testing Center

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"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9
Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5322
Profile #19
quote:
Articles: These are the only works Kelandon has the right to ask me to take off the site, although...
actually, he has the right to ask anything he wants. it's just up to you whether you want to be taken as an arse or not. :-/

[ Sunday, February 13, 2005 08:20: Message edited by: kendl ]
Posts: 73 | Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5415
Profile #20
Actually, Overwhelming, it's not a good idea to be a stickler for details when you don't understand the details.

For example, on the scripts, Spiderweb Software lets people adapt them. Thus the new script has two copyrights: the original, which Jeff lets people use for making scenarios, and the new one for new material added. Yes, it's derivative, which means the derivative parts (the original ones) are still owned by Jeff but the new parts have new copyrights. You do not have the right to distribute the new scripts without BOTH copyright owners' permission.

But the bottom line here is that you can try to fight over the small details or you can DO THE RIGHT THING and take those items off your site that you did not create and the creator demanded you take down. And if you refuse to do the right thing, be prepared to face some difficulties due to your willingness to infringe upon other people's rights.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #21
Overwhelming, what you are doing is certainly immoral. Kelandon has given a lucid reason for his policy, which is common ('I want to control where my stuff is uploaded so I can easily standardize versions'), and you have not for yours, which is less so ('I reserve the right to throw your stuff up at a moment's notice').

'I'm not going to give the reason for doing this' sounds suspiciously like 'I really did refuse because I dislike him, but I'll be damned if I'm going to admit it in a public forum'.

Overall, I think this is seriously asinine and continuing on the course of action you have taken would be exceptionally ill-advised. Whether or not what you have done is in tune with the letter of the law (note: I still doubt it is!), it is still exceptionally tasteless and more than enough to get declared persona non grata over.

Please consider something besides your desire to look good before making a final decision, and bear in mind that if you are going to stick by this childish decision you WILL be blackballed in the community.

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The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest.
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #22
Overwhelming, the fact that you do not read the e-mail sent to you as site administrator does not excuse ignorance of my requests.

I just want this to end as soon as possible. Remove my work (ALL of it) from your site and I will cease bothering you.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 5005
Profile #23
quote:
6. There are other false claims that I won't address, because I won't bother about it.

7. You should know both side's stories and reasons before making your judgement.

After reading your response, your "side of the story" remains a mystery to me, Overwhelming, as well as your lack of respect for the entire BoA community. You really don't understand the seriousness of your childish behavior. For the record, I live 3 feet across the hall from Kel, and all that he has said regarding this situation is TRUE. Your claim of "lies and half-truths" have no merit; you didn't defend your stance on that claim to begin with.
Get off your holier-than-thou pedestal and listen for once. You have Kel's work. He asked for them to be taken off your site, so do it. Now.

[ Sunday, February 13, 2005 14:17: Message edited by: Wizcozski ]

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Beware the Were-Rabbit!
Posts: 45 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #24
I will state for the record that I trust Kelandon. He is a good member of the community, I've known him through the community, respect him, and trust him. If he brings up accusations, I have no reason to doubt him unless I see otherwise. You have not, still, provided me evidence to doubt his claims.

quote:
Originally written by Overwhelming:


2. The reasons he claimed were not the ones described in his post. If he had given me that motive, I would probably take it off. The reasons he gave me were insultive and envious. Somewhat childish, I should say.

3. The only truth in the post: I refused. For many reasons I didn't and I don't bother to explain why. He knows.

[4c.] But it's for the other reasons you don't know. ;) But i'll take them off if asked again in this thread, by the author.

[5]I've asked permission to host all files in the BoAC site to the respectives authors, including Kelandon.

6. There are other false claims that I won't address, because I won't bother about it.

7. You should know both side's stories and reasons before making your judgement.

What were the reasons in [2]? Get them out in the open please. Your response in [3] is just plain arrogant and conceited. "I know, but I'm not telling, but how dare you make a decision without knowing all the facts!?"

That's great you quote things and are using the letter of the law to defend your mean spirited and malicious behavior. You continue with your pompous comments in [4c] by being even more insulting with a little smiley. Your mock about "I'm not telling you" is VERY rude and disrespectful.

Your claim in [5]. I don't know you, I don't trust you. Where is your e-mail/other electronic communication evidence to the contrary?

To [6], same as above: Quit being secretive and tell us. As far as [7], I would, but you seem to be more eager to make a lot of noise and hope I do not notice there is no substantial information to support your claims in your post.

Until I see evidence to the contrary, my ruling stands. Comply with the request. It is a very simple thing that any reasonable and kind person with a crumb of decency would do.

[ Sunday, February 13, 2005 16:02: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00

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