Illegal distribution on the BoAC
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 12:33
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quote:I suppose you failed to notice that the BoAC is not located at spidweb.com nor run by Spiderweb Software. Yes, Jeff has the right to do this, but Overwhelming does not. quote: quote:Notice the difference. There were a few conversations (which I started), but no one brought up the prospect of going to his service provider until after this topic was made. (Dreamguy, in one of the early posts in this thread, was the one who first mentioned it.) Making this topic was the suggested remedy. quote: quote:Please read more carefully before you pass judgment. [ Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:39: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 13:01
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What a mess, just take the stuff down Overwhelming, if you havent already. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 14:05
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Actually, VCH, it's too late for that. Overwhelming's entire site has been taken down by the host because he refused to remove the copyrighted materials. Hopefully that will also mean he won't be back here claiming that we don't know what we are talking about. Everyone, including the host, knew it was illegal, contrary to his ranting and raving. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 14:09
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quote:You two are arguing the same point. I'm fairly certain his statement pointing that out was specifically a reply to someone earlier who claimed that someone could keep their scenario away from Jeff by not submitting it to him. He is pointing out that Jeff, by the license, has rights to distribute them whether the author wants it or not, which is what you just said when you thought you were contradicting him. No need to squabble when you are saying the same thing. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5431
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 14:17
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quote:I'm quite aware of that. I suppose you failed to notice that I was replying to a post from Thuryl about how BoE scenarios were lost to the community when various sites went down, and replied only to show that this wouldn't happen with BoA, considering that everything is located redundantly at spidweb.com, minus custom graphics. quote:In other words, the discussors (you now say that you were one of the discussors) were aware of the option at that time, and you did not have to come to the boards to find that option, as stated here: quote:For clarity, by "before", I meant "before you took it to the boards". quote:I had noticed that error upon rereading and edited out the comment, only to find this one. A bit too late, I guess... To quote myself: quote:How come after that post, all I have done, and have been forced to do, was to defend what I said about Overwhelming? Is it because you'd rather me jump to my feet and scream "BURN THE OUTCAST!"? So far, Overwhelming has not done anything against me, personally. I can not say the same about you, however. Being tactless to someone who wishes to remain neutral isn't exactly the best way to gain their support. Let me recapitulate: I did not intend for my first comments to be offensive, if they were taken that way. I only intended to promote fairness, rather than joining the bandwagon and attacking Overwhelming, so he doesn't feel that he's being attacked here (and would therefore be more likely to comply). I felt that all these comments against him was just provoking him, and was actually lessening the chances of this ordeal being sorted out peacefully, which was against(?) your intent. quote:Too late for that. quote:Indeed.... [ Thursday, February 17, 2005 14:24: Message edited by: Aluion ] -------------------- People with signature fixation will not know who this is. Posts: 22 | Registered: Tuesday, January 25 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 15:11
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Please let's all try to be nice. What's done is done, Kelandon's happy, Overwhelming got nothing more than he deserved for committing an illegal act, and we can only hope he doesn't make a huge fuss about it. Regarding SW being able to distribute scenarios without needing to ask the designer's permission, that still relies on SW actively seeking out non-submitted scenarios. Certainly, SW seems to be making positive steps in that direction so far. Still, SW's awareness of the very existence of these orphan scenarios relies on the SW and Lyceum community's efforts to maintain a scenario database, and the more third-party scenario websites there are out there, the more work that is. Also, SW has a policy of not hosting scenarios that receive low ratings (which, I admit, are generally no great loss to the community) or which require replacement of default resources such as player character graphics. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 18:14
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Aluion, I apologize if my response sounded caustic. This issue has made me a bit on edge lately, and I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh. Anyway, I'm sure that there will be a huge fuss about this when this weekend arrives and Overwhelming comes back, but I guess we can let this lie for a couple of days until that happens. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 21:16
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What a tool, he lost his website over some links and material. Why didnt he just take them down. Maybe he figures hell just start another Site up again. Oh well whatever. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 13:57
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Thanks, Aluion, for sharing your unbiased insight in this matter. What you say is true and how I interpreted Kelandon's action. About my site being shut down, I just returned home today, to find it shut (you were wise enoughto contact squarespace while I was away, unable to reply and defend myself). Already checked my email and I didn't even get a notice or something from Squarespace.com. I've already wrote them about this matter, explaining my view on this case, as well as my legal view. Let's see the response. The site is suspended, not deleted. (Or I hope the "suspended" means it's not deleted ;) ). For the little elite group who couldn't bear my site's existence, congratulations for your demonstration of power, overuling fairness, this board's CoC and acting agains't a site that just wants to promote Jeff's game, promote more fans to the game and scenario creators. Your personal ego is surely satisfied, it's a pity you didn't had in consideration Spidweb and your sipdweb community member who just wanted to contribute and had the endurance to make it happen and never attacked others. But let's see what squarespace.com will tell me about the subject. Best regards, Overwhelming. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 154
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written Friday, February 18 2005 13:59
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What do you expect? It doesn't matter what morals or feelings were behind your lack of permissions (including revoked rights, for any reason, including none), what matters is it's technical legality. -------------------- Apparently still annoying. Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:17
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And I didn't brake any laws, so you're right. But let's wait and see. :) -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:28
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Overwhelming, if you would drop the persecution complex for just a second, you might see that my request was not that your site get destroyed. My request was simply that you stop distributing my work. Is it really worth risking the very existence of your site in order to keep my work on it? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:31
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I forgot to reply *i: quote:1. Do you need to hear? Can't you judge yourself? Read the BoA Editor license. I'll post here the relevant part again, if you want. And even quote some other part that imply that it's not only Spidweb who has the non-exclusive rights. I'll explain it in detail, if you want. Anyway, to take an action again't a forum member, you must justify it with the CoC and the Law. You didn't. You just acted aggains't me, before even judging fairly. I think that's not the right procedure. 2. I offered Kelandon the oportunity to post here the PM's. It seems he didn't. We can only wonder why. About other public posts, it's a matter of searching the forum. 3. Sure... The American Nazi example was just a harmless and unintentional comparison. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:38
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quote:It's a matter of fairness and justice. As matter of fact, if you had been more polite and less offensive in the first PM, I could have removed the works, even if I technically don't have to. But your behaviour was malicious and offensive (no matter what you say). All added: unless someone shows me i'm giving a bad interpretation to the law (which is very unlikely), I won't remove your works. Or remove them temporarily until the matter is solved with squarespace until they assess this situation and the legal aspects. Let's wait and see. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 1046
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:41
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quote:Fixed. -------------------- Polaris - owns you. Undead Theories - double U slash E Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:47
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quote:It's not fixed. I have them. :) Remember that even Kelandon confirmed the PMs. [ Friday, February 18, 2005 14:50: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 154
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written Friday, February 18 2005 14:50
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I fail to understand how you can even begin to think you are being lawful. -------------------- Apparently still annoying. Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:03
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So what if Kelandon was a dick when he PMed you. You think its a matter of morals and board members attacking you. Its pure stubbornness, you could have just taken them down and forgotten the whole matter. But no, you have to be all righteous and refuse to move from your position. Oh well have fun getting your site back "Gary" or was it "Bob" , I forget, both sides were just as stupid any way. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 148
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:31
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I've been staying out of this, but now Overwhelming, you're being an idiot. All material created by Kelandon is Kelandon's noting the exception stated in the BoA editor License. No BoA editor license passage gives you the right to distribute and you do not fall under the protection of the USA fair-use doctrine. I do not believe there exists a single US loophole for you to exploit. While you and your country (I don't where your from) may not recognize US copyright in that country, if you use the USA in some manner to continue this action, you are held accountable under the US copyright law. Ahem. Overwhelming: Stop arguing. Kelandon: May I use this as an example of International Copyright Violations via the Internet for my class? I just want to provide an example. I'll leave off names. -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:40
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Overwhelming is back and still claiming to be right... bringing clueless to whole new amazing levels. Dude, you aren't doing the Blades of Avernum community a service by releasing other people's software, scipts, articles and so forth without their permission. Stubborn lack of understanding of the law only counts as an excuse just so far. But then you already admitted you had no legal right to put up other people's articles without permission, and you purposefully kept those up anyway just to piss him off, knowingly breaking the law in the process. Any claims you try to make to be the victim here are sheer nonsense. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:52
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If I'm being stubborn, you're being no less. Read the BoA Editor License: quote:Who's the recipient? quote:Should I continue? Well, I guess we're all getting bored with this issue. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5005
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:55
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quote:Are you freaking kidding me. They did assess this situation: they suspended your site. You continue to break the law by not adhering to a simple request that Kel has made. Just end this pathetic episode, Overwhelming. It's really not worth all of this. And I realize that this is saying the same thing that everyone else has said before. Don't you think you should listen? [ Friday, February 18, 2005 15:57: Message edited by: Wizcozski ] -------------------- Beware the Were-Rabbit! Posts: 45 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3610
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written Friday, February 18 2005 15:56
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Overwhelming, Alarion, and to a lesser extent myself, have been trying to explain to you the legal ramifications of your actions. Again, the following is offered as my my opinion in a non-expert manner, that my opinion is not presented as legal council, and that I accept no responsibility for any consequences of you using what follows. I am not claiming this is the final word on this situation, and I suggest you consult retained council before taking action: The Common Public License (refered to as the "agreement") which Mr. Watts and Spiderweb Software entered into as a result of Mr. Watts's use of the program "Blades of Avernum Editor" says that Mr. Watts (refered to in the Agreement as the "Recipient") will recieve certain rights. One of them is that "Subject to the terms of this Agreement, each Contributor hereby grants Recipient a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, distribute and sublicense the Contribution of such Contributor, if any, and such derivative works, in source code and object code form." (Section 2, Paragraph (a).) This grant of rights means that Mr. Watts's scenarios for Blades of Avernum constitute derivative works. Mr. Watts and Spiderwed Software also entered into another contract (the "Blades of Avernum License" when Mr. Watts used the program Blades of Avernum). This agreement grants Spiderweb Software the "Right to place any and all scenarios created in whole or in part by the Blades of Avernum Scenario Editor for download on our web site without prior approval of the author." (Following Section 10, under "Reserved Rights".) I will discuss the implications of this later. When "Overwhelming," a Portugese national, elected to use the services of a company Squarespace Inc. As part of the Terms of Use (known as the "Agreement") for this company's services, "Overwhelming" agreed that "This Agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Maryland and no party shall object to removal or prosecution of any litigation to a federal or state court in Maryland." (Section XII) As a signitory and ratifier of the Constitution of the United States of America, the State of Maryland accepts all laws of the United States of America as her own. Given that all parties are American nationals, or corporations incoporated within the territorial boundaries of the United States of America, American Federal law applied. Given that the license for Blades of Avernum stipulates the law of the State of Washington, the state with primary jurrisdiction is disputable, but the laws at the Federal level apply, as do all treaties, conventions, agreements, and other international instruments and contracts legally entered into by the United States of America. Now, regardless of the nationalities of any of the concerned parties, both the United States of America and the Portugese Republic are ratifiers of a number of treaties and conventions. Among these are the Berne Convention and the Paris Convention. Under the terms of the Berne Convention, the articles written by Mr. Watts qualify as a litterary work. So too do the scripts written by Mr. Watts. The scenarios written by Mr. Watts quallify, in my oppinion, as "cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography" (Article 2, Paracraph (1)). Thus, all of Mr. Watts's disputed property can be reasonably construed to fall under the jurrisdiction of the Berne Convention. Of primary interest is the fact that "Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation." (Article 6, Paragraph (1).) In this case, it is the claim of Mr. Watts that the presence of the disputed property on "Overwhelming's" website constitutes a dereogitory action which would hurt Mr. Watts's reputation. If it is the belief of the community that Mr. Watts's claim is true, then "Overwhelming" would be in error. Regardless of that, the Berne Convention also states that "Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form." (Article 9, Paragraph (1).) This is an explicit statement that seems to suggest that Overwhelming is in error. Now, we should recall at this point that Mr. Watts entered into an agreement with Spiderweb Software specifying that Spiderweb Software retained certain rights, including the "Right to place any and all scenarios created in whole or in part by the Blades of Avernum Scenario Editor for download on our web site without prior approval of the author." This passage can be interpreted in one of two ways. The first is that by placing any and all scenarios up for public download, they in fact made them public domain. The other is that the rights are exclusive to Spiderweb Software, and "Overwhelming" does not have the right to distribute them. In my oppinion, the latter is correct. I had intended to move on to Federal law at this point, but I think the international law is fairly clear, and applies with certainty to all concerned parties. The fact that my dinner is ready does amplify my resolve on this point. I would just like to add a few things in closing: This community has no legal right to judge in this case. "Overwhelming" never agreed to accept Spiderweb Software or its agents as arbitrators, and, even assuming one among us is a judge with jurrisdiction, this is not the proper place for such deliberation. I believe, in fact, that the consensus of a small group of the communities older members does is hardly sufficient justtification for any actions taken. Stareye, as a moderator on the official Blades of Avernum boar, you are a representative of Spiderweb Software. Even as such, you are not above the Code of Conduct. Dirrectly from the Code of Conduct: "Moderators are expected to uphold the Code of Conduct and warn members about any infraction which they commit. ... Moderators are not exempt from the Code of Conduct themselves." Further, "Overwhelming's" actions were not performed on any site owned or operated by Spiderweb Software. As represnsibe as intellectual property theft is, you should still not be concerned as a moderator. That means that you should not be using your moderator powers. By using your moderator powers in relation to an affair that only concerns you as a member of the community, you are crossing a very dangerous line. Regardless of how right the use may be, in this case, you have now set a precedent for using moderator powers in a personal matter. If someone is to take action on these boards with relation to the matter, it should be Mr. Vogel, or someone he has dirrectly requested to do so, because it represents Spiderweb Software taking a position on an external affair, not dealling with an internal matter. I believe intellectual property theft is wrong, except in a few, specific cases, and all of those have to do with the threat of death or serious injury. I condone the actions of neither side. I just hope that people can understand the severity of infringement on intellectual property. On a personal note to Aluion, by prefacing your statement with "IAAL" I believe, and I may be wrong, that you could be potentially setting yourself up for malpractice, should anything be wrong. I doubt it would happen in this community because it is a pretty asinine thing to do, but just thought I shoul mention it. EDITS: Added final paragraph, fixed names, gramar. [ Friday, February 18, 2005 16:00: Message edited by: Dastal ] Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 148
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written Friday, February 18 2005 16:11
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Edit: Nevermind. It was summarized quite nicely. [ Friday, February 18, 2005 16:14: Message edited by: Dahak ] -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5431
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written Friday, February 18 2005 16:13
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Edit: A bit late on the submit button I guess... quote:Can you post your interpretation of the law? As far as I can tell, Spiderweb Software is the only one who has the right to distribute scenarios without author's approval. Also, where does it say that everyone has the non-exclusive right to distribute scenarios? I see no evidence to suggest that non-exclusive holds a definition in the liscence agreement besides the one it already holds in "legalese". The only way you'd be legally in the right to distribute the scenarios after Kelandon has requested that you take it down is if you had a prior agreement with Kelandon that your distribution right was irrevokable. I have not seen any evidence suggesting this. I think that this is the passage you are speaking of: quote:If you read the beginning of the liscence agreement, it defines Contributor as someone who distributes the Program and Recipient as someone who recieves the Program, and Program to refer to the Contributons and Contributions to refer to the source code, and any changes or additions to the source code. (I'm going by memory here, bear with me if I get one of the terms wrong. Definitions should be right, though.). What it is talking about here is not the scenarios made by the Program, but the other programs that may derivate from the editation of or additions to the source code of said Program, as well as the Program itself. In other words, you have the right to distribute The Blades of Avernum Editor, and it is implied that you can distribute any derivations therefrom (Such as the 3D editor). I can see where you could get confused here if you didn't read the definitions section. Also, I'd like to add that Squarespace likely suspended, not deleted, your account. This is usually done by hosting providers to perserve evidence or overturn a desision if nessesary. You may even still have access to your files through FTP (or whatever transfer method you use). A personal response to Dastal: I did say that 1: I was half-asleep when I wrote that, 2: You shouldn't take legal advice from people over the internet anyway. and 3: I was doing everything from memory, and not looking up anything. I think that sufficently disclaims me from any liability charges without having to put "DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY: ALUION MAY OR MAY NOT BE INTOXICATED RIGHT NOW. YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE ANY PORTION OF THIS AS SANE LEGAL ADVICE." at the bottom of every post in bold-faced print. The only way to really get accurate legal advice with a guarantee of any sort is to pay someone to give it to you. I admit, there were probably parts that were wrong. I haven't really had the time to wade back through everything, but, I also trust most of the members of the community are smart enough to not take advice without a pinch of reservation. I don't feel that I am acting as an attorney here for anyone, just giving my opinion on the entire thing, based on my knowledge and interpretations, and therfore I don't think I have any fiduciary duties to anyone here. In fact, that would be the opposite of my intentions. Of course, according to Murphy's Laws, I will now be proven wrong. [ Friday, February 18, 2005 17:04: Message edited by: Aluion ] -------------------- People with signature fixation will not know who this is. Posts: 22 | Registered: Tuesday, January 25 2005 08:00 |