Illegal distribution on the BoAC
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 17:52
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A few points in Overwhelming's defense, since this is not motivated out of malice (no matter what he thinks): About 5: he did ask my permission at first. I had forgotten about this, but I think it's clear that my permission has been rescinded, as is my right to do at any time. About 2: yes, the reasons I gave were different in my initial PM than in the first post of this thread. The initial reason was that I don't like the site and don't want to endorse it by supplying it with my work, but I stressed that there were many other reasons, of which the one I mentioned above is one. I noted above that there were other reasons, of which the one that I mentioned in my first PM is one. Either way, my reasons matter less than my request. Overwhelming flatly refused rather than asking for a clarification of reasons, and he has done the same again. I am willing to explain my reasons in full if that's what he wants, but I think it shouldn't be necessary. This is not a campaign to smear Overwhelming's name, which is why I am making this effort to clarify what is going on. I look forward to a resolution as soon as possible so that we can all move past this messy business. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 17:56
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Overwhelming -- Do you think it would be possible to simply place links directly to the content rather than the content itself on the BoAC? I believe this will be an acceptable compromise. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 18:34
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I will address this subject just one more time. I don't want enter in unpleasant details, and honestly this subject isn't worthy my time discussing it. But in consideration for those who don't know what's going on and really want to know, I'll clarify some points asked here. I think answering *i's post will cover all you need to know. About point 2, here's what Kelandon wrote: quote:Add to that other public affirmations made by him, and you'll know what I mean. About point 3: I didn't want to sound arrogant, but since some people have been arrgant them selves to me, I guess I was influenced by them in my words. Anyway, I really think it's not worthy to "wash the dirty laundry" in public. Besides, Kelandon is an older and more active member in this forum, so it's natural that most people will take his side if they ignore the facts. But even so, I don't think it's worth it, because it doesn't address the main issue: can those works be hosted in BoAC? Yes they can, as shown in point 4. Point 4: quote:It's true that the fact that a mean spirited person acts agains't me, doesn't give me the right to act in the same way. But since legal issues were raised here, I had to clarify them. quote:It's not a mock. If you read carefully, Kelandon said his motives are that he can't have direct control on his works for editing, namely the scenarios and scripts. Articles are not scenarios nor scripts, nor need editing. That's why I said that the reasons were not the one he gave in the first post. Is this clear now? About point 5: quote:It's very easy. Just ask the authors. Ask even Kelandon. About points 6 and 7, I think what is to be explained was explained. The remaining, isn't worth our time, as they don't concern the main issue here. Finally, I ask you to restore my signature, as I didn't broke any laws and neither the forum rules. Please, don't abuse your moderator powers. I understand Kelandon is your friend and you know him much better than me, but in this forum you're the moderator, not only *I, so do the right thing. Kelandon: You only have the right to ask me to remove your articles. Ask me that, and I'll remove them. Best regards, Overwhelming EDIT: I only read your last two posts after posting this. Since it's almost 3 am here, i'll read them tomorrow (if my valentine won't mind ;) ) and answer with a fresher mind. Good night. [ Sunday, February 13, 2005 18:44: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 19:19
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quote:Actually, DreamGuy is correct; even though scripts are derivative works, Kelandon still holds copyright over his own contributions to them. You probably don't have the right to distribute the HLPM either; giving SW a non-exclusive right to distribute a scenario doesn't imply that he's required to give others the same right. Even if you were legally in the right in distributing these materials, it's still a damned rude thing to do so against their creator's wishes. Honestly, assuming Kel will agree to it, why not just accept Stareye's compromise? Provide outside links to the content so that Kel has control of it without having to chase you up if he releases a new version of something. [ Sunday, February 13, 2005 19:22: Message edited by: Sagieuleaux ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 19:35
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I requested ALL information be displayed publically. What I need are unedited full texts of PMs received and sent. You have not yet answered all parts of the inquiry so I cannot make a fair judgment. Until the request is met, since you called me on making decisions without the full story, I will not even consider any petition for restoration of full membership privledges. The point for me is a common decency one. You may or may not be guilty of a crime, per se, we could ask the legal guru Alcritas about it, but nonetheless, that is not the point. This is an issue the Code of Conduct was not designed to resolve, but still, many of us feel that what you are doing should not be supported by the Spiderweb boards. The rights of its customers who use their products should be protected as well. Their scenarios are partial property of Spiderweb Software and the author and hence SW has the total right to keep and distribute them at will. You do not have such permissions as far as I am aware. On my end, I am trying to protect the rights of Spiderweb Software customers from having their works redistributed without their consent. The best way to accomplish this in a timely manner, in my mind, is a temporary freeze on linking to your site until the issue is completely resolved. I admit as a designer, I am sympathetic to other designers. Creating a scenario takes a lot of work that non-designers really cannot appreciate fully. Our scenarios can be like children to us as they are vessels of our ideas, sweat, time, and hard work. I can understand the desire of designers to restrict flow of their scenarios to unofficial vendors such as yourself. Personally, I believe it is a designers right. On the extreme, I would not want the American Nazi Party, a group I highly disagree with, to distribute my scenario. I will, however, ask for clarification on this issue. I have offered a very easy way out of this for you that everyone finds acceptable. I will restate it now: remove the actual content and replace it with link directly to the items in question. This will ensure that the BoAC provides its service of getting players to information while preserving the rights of designers to have intellectual control over their creative works. I want this issue to be resolved as soon as possible and have everything be restored. I urge you to accept the compromise as it will save a lot of headaches. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 19:47
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Stareye's compromise is acceptable to me. Overwhelming, I have already asked you to remove the articles, and I repeat my request again: remove everything of mine from your site, including the articles. If you must, you can link to these things, but do not host them directly. I can and will take this to your host if you do not comply within a reasonable period of time. [ Sunday, February 13, 2005 20:00: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Sunday, February 13 2005 22:46
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And let me reiterate, Overwhelming, that you don;t have the slightest idea how the law works on these matters, so you continuing to claim that he only has the right to ask that the articles be removed and nothing else shows sheer stubborn ignorance and arrogance. It's like being caught by a traffic cop speeding, drinking and driving, with both tail lights out on an expired license and then flippantly telling the cop that none of that is his business but you might consider slowing down if he asks nicely. The correct response here is to say you're sorry and to do what you are told (take everything down that you were asked to take down) instead of acting cocky. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2104
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written Monday, February 14 2005 04:25
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quote:Does this include scenarios? If so, I was never asked permission for Xerch'de to be up there. -------------------- —Zxquez Zolohahni Xerch'de/Rate. Posts: 549 | Registered: Thursday, October 17 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4202
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written Monday, February 14 2005 11:47
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quote:But the DMCA is an abominably pernicious threat to society! And laws are generally too much of a bother to examine or use aggressively. -------------------- Creator of the 3D Blades of Avernum Editor for Mac. Get it at Ingenious Isaac's Illusion, my web page. Better yet, get Battle for Wesnoth, a wonderful free TBS game. Posts: 192 | Registered: Sunday, April 4 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, February 14 2005 15:45
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quote:Regarding the DMCA, are you really suggesting we refrain from taking advantage of an established law purely as a matter of principle? That's like saying an anti-gun activist shouldn't defend himself if he happens to be attacked while the only weapon readily available for his defence is a gun. Regarding having to examine the law to figure out what we need to do, there's no real need; we can easily adapt the boilerplate from one of the many, many DMCA complaints against Google. Just do a Google search on, say, "xenu" or "kazaa lite" and check the bottom of the page. [ Monday, February 14, 2005 15:45: Message edited by: Sagieuleaux ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, February 14 2005 17:10
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I note that Overwhelming has not yet taken any action (even removing the articles). He said he'd read this "tomorrow," and it's already past 1 a.m. his time. If something doesn't happen soon, I will take further action. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Monday, February 14 2005 21:37
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quote:No, actually, the DMCA has a lot of parts to it, and most of them were very good and then long overdue. But then some people just don't have anything better to do than get all morally outraged over topics they don;t understand. Take the current example. Someone places someone else's copyrighted work up on a site without authorization. The DMCA is the only practical way to force the individual breaking the law to take it down without spending thousands of dollars in legal fees each and every time it happens. Otherwise the crooks just thumb their noses and get away with it because they know most people won't spend that kind of dough. As far as Overwhelming here goes, the time for threats is over, since he's obviously too dumb or too arrogant to listen to reason. Contact the site host and get them to take the site down if all of the offending material is not removed. He can't say he wasn't warned. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 04:13
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Hi everyone. Zxquez Zolohahni: Then you're the only one I mentioned in my other post that I didn't remember to ask permission. Sorry about that. :) Kelandon: Articles removed. Scenarios and scripts aren't. The law is on my side in this issue, and that means I have the right to have it hosted. You asking to remove the files goes agains't the law and my rights. Stareye: The issue is the law and, in these boards, the Conde of Conduct. As a moderator you must follow these principles and I'm not breaking any of them, so you have no right (but have the power) to discriminate me. About a full transcription of the PM, I don't know why should they matter to the subject, but to me it's ok if Kelandon posts here the PM's. (One PM mine, three Kel's PMs plus an email). Morality: I undertand your concern about protecting the work you spend much of your time. But I don't think I'm threatening any of those works. Quite the opposite, I'm giving them exposure. The author's name and his homepage are credited and, everytime it's needed, his works will be updated (although not as fast as he would like, i know). If he was concerned about the reason he gave in the first post, then why did he gave me permission to host his files in the first place? About you comparing me or my site with the american neo-nazi party is rediculous and even offensive. Not a moderator's supposed behaviour. To those who, apparently, didn't bother the read well the laws involved, I just say the laws are on my side. You can contact my host at your leisure, I'm not worried about. Have a nice week, and untill next weekend, as I'll be away. I'll return here to see if the PMs are posted and without changes. ;) -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 04:54
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I remain unconvinced that you are legally in the right. In fact, everyone I talk to says otherwise. Here are the two conditions: 1) I need to hear from someone unbiased that what you are doing is legal. AND 2) Full texts of the PMs, so I can understand all motivations of the parties involved, are posted publically. This way I can make an informed judgment. Your actions must be both legal and not mean spirited. Also, I was not comparing you to the American Nazi party, using it as an example. Identify the difference. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 06:20
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Overwhelming, Stareye is not just a moderator, he is an admin. There's a difference. Also, I sent you three PMs, an e-mail, and a previous e-mail; if you didn't get that, then your "Contact Me" on the BoAC doesn't work. I don't want the sort of exposure that your web site would give me. I shouldn't have to argue with you about this: I wrote these text documents on your site, so they are mine. Several of them (Dehydration, Numeric Input, Terrain Script Template) are not based on anything that Jeff has written at all. I have a large (an overwhelming, even) number of reasons that I don't want you to distribute either my scripts or my scenarios, but I shouldn't have to list them: I created these things, and I'm asking you to follow my wishes with regard to them. If you want reasons, I can give you dozens of reasons. You have never asked, though. Overwhelming, please just do the right thing, with or without the law: please remove my scripts and scenarios. You have given no reasons for your actions, and I can't help but think that they are motivated by malice against me. I don't expect you to believe me, but malice against you is not one of my many reasons for making this request. Please stop this now. [ Tuesday, February 15, 2005 06:21: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5322
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 06:43
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this is getting ridiculous. oh, and kelandon, you could just ask him to remove the scripts you've done completely by yourself. in case those scripts are essential to the scenario's functionality, he'd be quite like forced to take rest of the files down, anyway. ;-) [ Tuesday, February 15, 2005 06:47: Message edited by: kendl ] Posts: 73 | Registered: Saturday, December 25 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 08:16
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For the record, I sent this e-mail to his host: quote:I received this reply: quote: -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 10:25
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quote:Your ignorance is overwhelming. Simply put, you don't know what the heck you are talking about and you foolishly insist that it's the rest of the world that has it wrong. Hopefully you'll learn your lesson on this and adjust your behavior, because you could get into serious legal trouble in the future pulling stunts like this. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3610
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written Tuesday, February 15 2005 11:36
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Understanding that the following does not consitute legal advice, but simply my own opinion offered in a non-expert manner: From a legal point of view, it seems to me that the law would suggest Kelandon has a number of rights: His scripts are using a pre-existing idea in a new way. This consitutes his legal intellectual property. Further, the body of text consituting the code is a litterary work under current interpretations of the Berne Convention. His articles are unquestionably his. The scenarios may or may not be his depending on several factors, including what tool he used to make them. I bellieve that they are, at the very least "utility patent"able though the EULA for the editor may say different. Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5431
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written Wednesday, February 16 2005 22:43
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IAAL (though I don't recommend turning to someone online for legal advice, anyway, so I see no point in this abbreviation), and I've been watching this post for awhile, so I figured it's about time for me to comment here, considering I'm not really biased about the whole thing. Note that I am sleep-deprived and relying on memory for all these citations, so forgive me if I am a bit off and/or this post is incoherent. I'll correct it later on. I wouldn't advise quoting any of this yet, as it's likely to be changed 80 different times tommorow, but anyway... All scenarios made with the Blades of Avernum editor are subject to the creator's copyright. The right to place the scenario for distribution on spidweb.com and the right to sale scenarios made with the editor are the only rights reserved by Spiderweb for created scenarios. I interpret the portion of the agreement in which it says "YOU MAY: - Freely distribute scenarios you create using the Blades of Avernum Scenario Editor" to mean that you have copyright over your work, with the stipulation that Jeff Vogel has the distribution rights stated above, and that you can not sell anything made with the scenario editor. Whether scenarios are distributed on other sites or not is therefore the author's desision. Note that custom made scripts by themselves are NOT made by the scenario editor nor are they included as part of a scenario; they are made by Jedit/notepad/your favorite script editor. Therefore, none of this applies to them. Therefore, Kelandon has the right to ask Overwhelming to remove his work, on the basis that he did not give Overwhelming an irrevocable right to distribute his work, and can therefore revoke Overwhelming's rights as a distributor. He is not legally bound to provide any reason at all for doing this. In fact, he could decide that because Mercury is currently Retrograde, your rights to distribute the work are removed, and that would be legally satisfactory. Overwhelming's passage in which he adds boldface typing to the word non-exclusive holds no merit if this agreement was not made between Kelandon and Overwhelming, as the replies suggest. The term "non-exclusive" typically means that if you give someone a right to distribute in one place, you also allow them to distribute it in another place. So if spiderweb.com changes it's URL to SW.net, it still has the right to distribute the scenario. It does not mean that it can be distributed everywhere, no matter who is running the site. Overwhelming, I've noticed that you don't live in U.S, so I'd like to add a little something about U.S laws. Even if you have the legal right to distribute it in your country, your service provider squarespace resides in the U.S and is therefore subject to U.S laws. Kelandon could file a complaint against Squarespace, and they would be forced to remove it. In an effort to save themselves from legal battle, Squarespace would probably rather delete your user account than hire a legal force to battle something you caused. Overwhelming, you still haven't really provided anything in your posts. You say that he gave you other reasons; state them. I HAVE read the laws well, and you say that the laws are in your favor; cite them. You say that you had a reason for not removing them other than the one he suggested; share it. You say that you should know both sides of the story before making a desision; where is your side? No one can know your side of the story if you don't tell it. Kelandon has gone public with this issue, therefore so should you. quote:That is the most arrogant and foolish comment I have heard on these forums. If you would not even defend yourself from a serious threat, then you deserve everything you get from that threat. A few words in Overwhelming's defense, since he won't defend himself, and I'm trying to approach this as unbiased as possible: Kelandon's post to me comes off as outright disparaging of Overwhelming. Communication intended to humiliate a fellow member is a violation of the CoC on this board, and I'm suprised the moderators have not mentioned this yet, considering it's their responsibility to be neutral and fair and to uphold the CoC and to warn members about infractions they commit. I've seen sarcastic comments against other members in jest (and am the victim and distributor of an equal amount of said comments), but those aren't really intended to demean the victim, whereas Kelandon's obviously is. I think a call to declare someone a persona non grata is about as humilating as one can get. This situation would have likely been better handled if Kelandon just went directly to Overwhelming's service provider and complained to them. It would also have been solved rather quickly. I'm not saying that I agree with what Overwhelming did, or that the public should not be informed, I am saying that you could have, and should have, handled it better. The CoC seems to be pretty much tossed out in this case, and it calls the effectiveness of the CoC into question, and the powers of the executive force behind the CoC. Do they have the right to nullification of the CoC in special cases such as this one, much like a jury has the right to nullify a law and refuse to uphold it? A little note about the compromise offered: I can see Overwhelming's reasons for not wishing to go into such a compromise. (Actually, Overwhelming didn't mention it, so I don't think he noticed that he was offered a compromise, but anyway...) Kelandon could simply change the download's URL and then Overwhelming would be left with a broken link. Even worse, Kelandon could change the content to something that is damaging to Overwhelming's repuation. The only compromise I know of that would be fair to boths sides would be if Overwhelming gave Kelandon an FTP account that he could update his items on, and then Overwhelming would be able to control the FTP account if Kelandon posted something offensive. This way, Overwhelming still has control over the content, and Kelandon has the ability to update the content in real time. I have more to say on the subject, and I'll probably add some later, but I'm tired, and this post is long, so I think I'll just leave it at that for now. Footnote: It's been about 48 hours and the scripts remain. Any word from the host? Footnote2: Though I use it, U.S law is irritating to me, and it's about as clear as...I don't know...something opaque. I think I'll move back to...Osaka...anywhere that resturants can't be sued over having hot coffee or trivial things such as that. -------------------- People with signature fixation will not know who this is. Posts: 22 | Registered: Tuesday, January 25 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 00:20
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quote:There's a bit of history behind this. Overwhelming has, in the past, declared an intention to host all kinds of content whether he could obtain permission from their creators or not. Furthermore, his forums were intended to compete with SW's forums, his script database was intended to compete with the Lyceum's Codex, and so on. Basically, he set out to make his site the hub of the BoA community, without regard to whether such an attempt would be necessary or beneficial to the community. We tried to convince him that an additional BoA site that attempted to host everything, when sites already existed to do everything he intended to do, would only lead to confusion and fragmentation of the community similar to what happened in the early days of BoE, but he wouldn't listen. Not surprisingly, this got under certain people's skin, and it's a big part of the reason for the ill will toward him. quote:The course of action to be taken was discussed on AIM among a small group of the community's older members before taking it to the boards. We decided it was better to publicly warn Overwhelming first before taking action that might lead to his site being shut down. quote:It's probably not entirely untrue to say that the CoC is applied with more lenience to members who are generally known and liked by the community. Every community has its unwritten rules. quote:Sure, this may not be too much work for Kelandon if it's just Overwhelming's site we're talking about. When a dozen sites spring up all trying to do the same thing, just keeping track of them all becomes a chore. This is the way BoE went, and as a result, a lot of graphics and scenarios were lost to the community when sites gradually started to go down. The solution is not to have a lot of BoA sites, but instead to have a small set of central BoA sites that are known to the community and not dependent on the support of any one member of it. Hence the Lyceum community, the Alexandria and Louvre projects, and so on. Most of what Kel has at his own site is also at one of these community-maintained sites; his scripts, for example, are at the Lyceum's Codex, where anyone can see them but where Kel can easily modify them himself if necessary. To put it bluntly, we were here first, and for that reason alone we're better equipped to do what Overwhelming's trying to do than he is. quote:I know this is off-topic, but to my mind people have a reasonable expectation that the coffee they purchase won't cause third-degree burns if spilled in their lap. [ Thursday, February 17, 2005 00:25: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 06:00
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quote:I disagree entirely. None of the comments that I've made have been intended to demean Overwhelming. The reason that I made that request is clearly stated in the main clause of the sentence in which I made the request: "I do not know what we should do about this." The community lacks enforcement mechanisms. If someone is doing something extremely unpleasant, there's no way to bring the person to justice except discussion and the weight of public opinion. It's not as though we can fine him or something. quote:I was not aware that this option existed. This was suggested to me after I made this topic; that's part of the reason that I went public, so that I could get opinions on the way to proceed. I gave Overwhelming nearly a month to remove these items and I sent him repeated messages. I think I've shown a fairly significant amount of restraint. EDIT: Anyway, his 48 hours are almost up, and my work is still there. I imagine that this means that something will happen later. EDIT 2: quote: [ Thursday, February 17, 2005 08:45: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5431
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 10:27
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quote:I figured as much. Will have to search for more later. quote:All you have do do is not use it and not support it. Without permission to distribute any scenarios, the site has no chance of really competing with the current setup. Kelandon did give him permission, however, as well as the other scenario authors, save one. quote:All that did was make him more defensive, and less compliant. quote:Had Overwhelming, or anyone for that matter, reported that/these posts, do you really think it would have mattered? A reverse of what you just said, I guess, is that members who are generally not known and not liked by the community have no protection when it comes to the CoC. quote:Did you read the Terms of Service before installing Blades of Avernum? Jeff Vogel has the right to put any and all scenarios on spidweb.com, WITHOUT the author's consent. Mariann already stated that she was working on a utilities page as well. That clause is meant to solve problems like the ones you've mentioned, so even if a scenario is only available on one website, it will still be redundantly located at spidweb. If Kelandon's site went down, what do you think would happen to the High Level Party Maker, if there was no such redundancy? I, myself, found the High Level Party Maker via Overwhelming's website after a google search. Kelandon's didn't turn up. The only place I knew of (at that time)that mentioned Kelandon's site was his signature. quote:I stated it as more of an off-topic thing too. I must admit, the Stella Liebeck vs. Mcdonalds case isn't really the best example. I do admit that Mcdonalds should have been more cautious with their temperature settings. Is it really nessesary, though, to warn consumers that "coffee may be hot" and "jumping off bridges may cause injury"? quote:That's the way it comes off to me. Personal opinion, nothing more. You still did ask for Overwhelming to be declared a persona non grata. In other words, you asked him to be declared fully unacceptable by the community for (as far as I could tell at the time) one incident between him and yourself. You intended, or seemed to intend, to destroy his reputation in order to get him to comply and remove your scripts/scenarios. Obviously, Overwhelming did not really help his side much, being that he both refuses to defend himself, and refuses to even consider that he plays a part within this ordeal. I did not know anything about Overwhelming until this topic, and I must admit I feel malice towards him after reading it. I just prefer not to jump and defend one side immediately without considering both. However, I tire of defending someone who will not defend themselves. quote:Thryl has already said that a group of people had discussed this option on AIM prior to going public. I don't know if you were involved in this discussion, but someone had brought it up before as a means to handle things. quote:Mea culpa. I didn't really intend to treat you so roughly, but I figured it was only fair after the assault I gave Overwhelming, and I wasn't trying to side with any particular person on this instance without giving Overwhelming a final chance to come to his own defense before Exiling him. quote:But will this really be the end? What is to stop Overwhelming from making a new site elsewhere? [ Thursday, February 17, 2005 13:49: Message edited by: Aluion ] -------------------- People with signature fixation will not know who this is. Posts: 22 | Registered: Tuesday, January 25 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5415
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 11:34
Profile
quote:Hopefully the realization that putting up rogue websites for a topic that is inherently community-based doesn't work. Not to mention that creating a new site would be a lot of work just to get shut down again right away if he violates someone's copyrights, now that people know how to file a complaint. (And keep in mind that if he should go with a host outside of the US, many of them will shut down pirate sites if they are reported as a violation of their rules.) Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, February 17 2005 12:13
Profile
Posting to illegal material is against the Code of Conduct for these boards. He can make all the sites he wants, but cannot advertise here. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |