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AuthorTopic: RWG
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #25
That is the closest thing to cute that RWG deserves.

That is all.

—Alorael, who would like to know what makes pidgeons so much more palatable than rats. They're really not that different from the much-maligned rodents except for their comparatively enhanced aerial capabilities.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #26
Well, pigeons don't live in sewers, though they aren't necessarily any cleaner.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #27
They see four primary colors. You've got to respect that.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #28
Do they see in CMYK?

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #29
Um, black is not a primary colour and never will be. :P

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #30
*slaps forehead* D'oh!

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #31
"Primary" color, as far as vision goes, is just the types of rods in your eyes. We can see red, green, and blue-purple. All other colors are seen by processing the varying signals from those detectors. Birds are able to detect another part of the spectrum (ultraviolet, I believe), so they have four primary colors.

You could call it C-Y-M-UV if you wanted.

—Alorael, who doesn't feel any need to respect pidgeons for superior eyesight. Until they start making UV art, they're still airborne rats.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #32
quote:
Originally written by My Friend:

"Primary" color, as far as vision goes, is just the types of rods in your eyes. We can see red, green, and blue-purple. All other colors are seen by processing the varying signals from those detectors. Birds are able to detect another part of the spectrum (ultraviolet, I believe), so they have four primary colors.

You could call it C-Y-M-UV if you wanted.

—Alorael, who doesn't feel any need to respect pidgeons for superior eyesight. Until they start making UV art, they're still airborne rats.

Actually, it's cones, not rods, that detect colour (rods just detect light in general; they're mainly important for night vision, because they're more sensitive than cones). Also, having more types of cone doesn't necessarily mean you can see a broader range of colours, but it does mean you can make finer distinctions between shades of the colours you can see. (Incidentally, the mantis shrimp has no fewer than twelve different types of cone, and can probably distinguish about 10 times as many shades of colour as humans, including colours in the ultraviolet range.)

[ Saturday, April 16, 2005 18:00: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #33
Earthworms, on the other hand, see a total of zero colors. Poor blind earthworms...
Is it true that dogs see in greyscale?

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #34
Not entirely, but a dog has fewer types of cone photoreceptor than we do (only two compared to our three). It also has a smaller number of cones overall. In general, dogs can easily distinguish red from blue, but have difficulty distinguishing red from green or blue from violet.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #35
That's pretty cool.

I suppose that's why in the dark everything looks like black and white (or, well, black and not-quite-so-black) instead of just really dark reds and blues and stuff.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #36
Exactly. Cones only start to be effective at light levels where the rods are already receiving close to the maximum light intensity they're able to process. When you're seeing black and white in the dark, you're seeing with your rods.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #37
Yes, they're cones. The rods were a thinko.

Since color is only perceived by the types of cones an animal has, that can mean either finer distinction or more range. Humans with red, green, and bluish cones can detect those colors and "guess" at the other colors from how much those types are firing. Varying proportions produce orange, yellow, turquoise, that slightly darker green, and so on.

A species could have those same cones and another set of cones outside the spectrum of light visible to humans. Its ability to distinguish colors we can see probably wouldn't be very different, although all colors would be tinged by some extra value, but it would be able to see a color we can't and several intermediate colors as well.

A hypothetical species with seventeen different types of cones, all detecting wavelengths in the green portion of the spectrum, would not be able to see color like us at all, but it would be very good at telling greens apart since they would seem like entirely different "primary" colors rather than shades of one primary color.

—Alorael, who recalls another fun eyeball fact. Because cones are clustered at the center of the eye and rods are denser at the edges, "front and center" vision is terrible at night. Try staring at something in the dark sometime and notice how it seems to disappear. This may or may not explain why reading in the dark is so hard.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #38
I have also heard that dogs cannot see 2D images well. Discuss.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by My Friend:

A hypothetical species with seventeen different types of cones, all detecting wavelengths in the green portion of the spectrum, would not be able to see color like us at all, but it would be very good at telling greens apart since they would seem like entirely different "primary" colors rather than shades of one primary color.
So I guess Irishmen are an alien species from outer space? :P

EDIT: Hmmm. Perhaps I should clarify that, yes?

Irishmen are reputed to be able to distinguish between something like 48 different shades of green, in their native country alone. In my opinion, to accomplish such a feat would require some seriously non-standard ocular biological hardware. Q.E.D.

[ Monday, April 18, 2005 11:58: Message edited by: Icshi ]
Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #40
One can be trained to distinguish among more shades of colors. Painters, for instance, are commonly able to tell the difference between two reds that are indistinguishable to the average person (so it's probably not that beneficial to their paintings anyway).

Neither artists nor the Irish claim that what we call green is in fact two different colors, foo and bar, as far as I know. If any do, they are either aliens or otherwise in an altered state.

—Alorael, who will now have to rethink some modern art. If artists can detect shadings too subtle for the lay observer, maybe some of those solid color canvasses are actually quite detailed. Maybe.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #41
What a cool shrimp!

Evidently, and contrary to one's impression from all cartoons, dogs have not evolved to chase two-dimensional cats.

Instead of staring at things at night to see them disappear, it is much more useful to look away from something you want to see, paying attention to it without looking straight at it. It's amazing how much better you can see in the dark this way. You can see faint stars, and avoid stubbing your toes. It really works, though it takes some practice to avoid immediately looking straight at something as soon as you make it out clearly off to one side, and then of course it disappears again.

Also about seeing in the dark: it takes twenty minutes or so for human eyes to adapt to low light. It's amazing how much more detail you can make out at night after waiting a while. But if you turn on a flashlight then, even briefly, your dark adaptation is lost, and you have to wait again. Unless, that is, you have a colored filter on your flashlight. Red or green light will not destroy your night vision. (I'm a bit fuzzy on just why this is, though obviously it has something to do with rods and cones; but it really does work.)

Final point about seeing at night: a big pair of binoculars really helps. Little binos are worse than useless at night, but ones with great, big front lenses are like turning on the lights.

[ Monday, April 18, 2005 12:55: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #42
My favorite quirk about vision is how our mind will fill in image gaps if a particular physical part of our eye isn't working. For example, there are no rods/cones where the optic nerve connects to the eye, so our mind will fill that tiny "blind spot" with whatever is around it - sort of like photo-editing a spot on an image. A more tragic example is the effect of macular degeneration, where the cones/rods degenerate over time. My grandfather, who suffered from macular degeneration (before he passed on), while driving could make out the shapes of highway signs (the big green ones), but they would appear to him to have no writing on them. (He stopped driving very soon after this started happening to him, though this didn't sadden him as much as pages of books appearing blank.)
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #43
I recently saw a very strange optical illusion. It was a wheel half black and half white, but with three short black arcs added to the white half. When spun rapidly, the arcs appeared to be colored, even though when still the whole pattern was very clearly pure black and white. The museum's accompanying text promised that that would happen, so it is a known illusion. What's with it, though?

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
Profile #44
I'd say the arcs were not actually black, but just very dark blue/green/red/whatever. When spun, they would blur with the white background and produce the illusion that they were lighter, thus you would see red or blue or whatever.

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~Note : The professional newbie's advice should not be taken seriously, or at all.~
LINKAGE
Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #45
As an update on the pigeons on my balcony, we discovered that the two adults actually decided to start a whole other nest on our balcony while simultaneously raising the chick in their original nest. My fiancee, Di, and I decided we would suffer this no longer - one miracle of life is enough, and the weather is nice enough now that we want our balcony back - so Di, in an admirably cold-blooded fashion, went out to the balcony, scared the mother bird away from her nest (pigeons are definitely flighty - ha ha ha), snatched up the two new eggs (they were warm to the touch through the plastic bag she used), and we threw them away. The mother bird all the while was flying back and forth by the balcony while she was doing this. We then destroyed the nest, and made other likely nesting spots uninhabitable.

I have to say that I likely wouldn't have been able to do this myself, on account of the guilt - the mother pigeon was most distressed. Still though, nature is a cruel mistress, right? And they aren't paying rent...

[ Tuesday, April 26, 2005 06:08: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #46
quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

As an update on the pigeons on my balcony, we discovered that the two adults actually decided to start a whole other nest on our balcony while simultaneously raising the chick in their original nest. My fiancee, Di, and I decided we would suffer this no longer - one miracle of life is enough, and the weather is nice enough now that we want our balcony back - so Di, in an admirably cold-blooded fashion, went out to the balcony, scared the mother bird away from her nest (pigeons are definitely flighty - ha ha ha), snatched up the two new eggs (they were warm to the touch through the plastic bag she used), and we threw them away. The mother bird all the while was flying back and forth by the balcony while she was doing this. We then destroyed the nest, and made other likely nesting spots uninhabitable.

I have to say that I likely wouldn't have been able to do this myself, on account of the guilt - the mother pigeon was most distressed. Still though, nature is a cruel mistress, right? And they aren't paying rent...

Watch out, PETA is going to go after you now. :P

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #47
Well, that would depend on whether the eggs are technically considered "alive," and I don't think they are until they hatch, or at least the third ovomester. ;)

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 04:13: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #48
Pidgicide, or eggicide? You decide.

I really don't think those black arcs were dark colors, and even if they were, adding white to a shade of blue so dark as to look black should just make a gray that was no more than very slightly bluish. That was not the effect I saw.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #49
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I recently saw a very strange optical illusion. It was a wheel half black and half white, but with three short black arcs added to the white half. When spun rapidly, the arcs appeared to be colored, even though when still the whole pattern was very clearly pure black and white. The museum's accompanying text promised that that would happen, so it is a known illusion. What's with it, though?
Wild speculation: persistence of vision is slightly different for the three different types of cone, so as white comes across the area covered by the arcs, different photoreceptors pick it up slightly out of sync with each other, making it appear coloured.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00

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