The Time has Come

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AuthorTopic: The Time has Come
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #125
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Useful members are allowed to break the CoC? How is that fair? All that accomplishes is a reinforced elitist system that scares off outsiders. And who decides what is useful?
A long essay could be written on this topic. I will just say two things here.

First, "scares off outsiders"? Seriously? This is not a trendy nightclub that is being a little too exclusive. This is a ramshackle internet forum. If anyone is scared off I imagine it's by coming and seeing so many threads that are clear wastes of time. But really, if somebody is scared off, why does it matter? It's not like there is a shortage of members. This forum does not provide anybody with a vital service. It's a recreational community which doesn't rank as quintessential in anybody's life. Let's keep some perspective.

Second, there are more constructive ways to approach this question. When I first became a regular here, I had a very similar reaction. I asked more than once why TM wasn't banned. I also tried to defend Arghhhhhhhhh. But I said these things politely and I respected the fact that the community here existed before me and was not subject to the whims of my intelligence.

It's that last point that gets you in trouble. You come off as expecting that we should all start doing things your way because it's more rational. I share some of your opinions, ET, but your method of delivery needs heavy revision.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #126
ET reminds me of myself before I was taken into a small chatroom by TM, Alec, and various other members. They then proceeded to beat some sense into me...

Oh the memories...

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #127
Tsk tsk, another one conformed to your evil ways. :P

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #128
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

You don't know me!
...I just had to.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
Profile Homepage #129
quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

ET reminds me of myself before I was taken into a small chatroom by TM, Alec, and various other members. They then proceeded to beat some sense into me...

Oh the memories...

I think everyone would benefit from a good, proper beating every now and then.

IMAGE(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GAL/SPSP5~The-Beatings-Will-Continue-Until-Morale-Improves-Posters.jpg)

[ Wednesday, April 09, 2008 21:29: Message edited by: Nemesis. ]

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Do not provoke the turtles.
They do not like being provoked.

-Lenar

ET reminds me of myself before I was taken into a small chatroom by TM, Alec, and various other members. They then proceeded to beat some sense into me...
-Lt. Sullust

My website: Nemesis' Refuge (Last Update: 3/7/08)
Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #130
The double standard with respect to CoC violations was really only two people who got away with a lot because they were old here. The worst offender has been permabanned for some time, and Alec has been civil on his recent visits, which are rare. So I think the double standard is gone, as far as CoC violations are concerned.

There remains a double standard / hazing period for strangeness, as opposed to outright obnoxiousness. If you come here with some gimmick, you will have to work for a while before you can carry it off without mockery. If you're stubborn enough you can reach that point. Eventually other people will even defend your gimmick for you, against the pretensions of upstart newbies.

That's the whole point of gimmicks, right? If just anybody could get away with them, yours wouldn't be worth anything. The more extravagant your gimmick, the harder you will have to work to get it accepted. But you can get there if you stick with it. It beats me how a guy who wears a big red feather in his hat, and posts his personal flag at regular intervals, can complain about the way this works. He paid his dues and eventually earned the spot he claimed. Every new member has the same opportunity.

The initial hassling of weird gimmicks can often be confused with the beating down of puerile obnoxiousness. If the hassling doesn't seem to be dying down after a while, it's probably worth asking oneself if there might be an obnoxiousness aspect to the problem.

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Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #131
I think the feather is an alien parasite advance scout that has found a weak mind to control as its race plans to take over the world. Look at how big it's gotten in the last year and the more bizarre ET's behavior has become. :)

Of course I could be wrong and that is ET's real behavior.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #132
Edit: Yay I learned to read!

At the end of the day, this place exists so that people who enjoy playing CRPG games (or those developed by Spidweb at any rate) can come together and talk to like-minded people about said games. Nothing more - read the forum descriptions. Also note that Jeff doesn't have to provide this forum for voicing our opinions - some of which have been face-palmingly stupid, even in this thread..

You know it's beyond me as to why people come into a community willingly, and then complain their arses off about the established members. If you don't like the way things are run, then you don't have to stick around. Jeff himself frequents the boards, and not once has he said "you older members are being completely unfair to the new members". And you know, I think he would speak out if he thought that was happening, since it might lose him prospective suctomers.

I mean, okay Tullegor - and I'm not being flippant, or condescending, or anything other than sincere here - how many other members do you think share the same point-of-view as you on this topic?

Edit: In response to the below post. Jeran, the reason the older members (hell, even some of the newer members) rag on you is because you post rubbish. Constantly. Take the thread for Episode 5. At one point, every other post was yours. And no, I am not saying that the people ragging on you are right to do so, but this is a community, and you take from it what you put in. If you start a well-thought out, or novel, or witty post/thread, then people will respond accordingly. Post "waves uber-greatsword of +19 to kitties" three or four times a day, and people will inevitably start rolling eyes.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 00:24: Message edited by: Nikki. ]

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Nikki's Nook - forget about your house of cards, and I'll deal mine.
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
Profile #133
*Cough*

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*Eyes potential targets*
Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #134
quote:
So I think the double standard is gone, as far as CoC violations are concerned.
This is simply not true. When I first came here and participated in Geneforge debates, I was told all the time that my opinions were stupid and so was I. I'd back them up with evidence from the games, but older members seemed more bent on insulting me personally that when I finally attacked back, I was the one that got banned. I can give you direct quotes and examples if you require more convincing. The double standard is alive and well, and I don't even have to count Alec among my evidence to prove it.
quote:
Nikki:
how many other members do you think share the same point-of-view as you on this topic?
quote:
—Alorael, who concludes that your complaints about the unfairness of Spiderweb are, in a sense, true.
quote:
On the issue of whether members, oldbies in particular, get more leeway than newer or less-liked members, Nalyd does think you are right.
quote:
I share some of your opinions, ET
I think many more do as well, because it is the truth. Yet I am crestfallen to discover that you are all so desperate for acceptance that you would sooner attack me than stand up for what you believe in.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 10374
Profile #135
quote:
Originally written by Nikki:

how many other members do you think share the same point-of-view as you on this topic?
I agree with ET completly

I have an example which came to my mind.
Iffy
At first you(oldbies)were giving him a hell of a time cause of muffins and spam.But as time passed you started to wear down your atitude and acept him(yes, even muffins)and all the spam.

p.s I kinda miss him :D
Posts: 263 | Registered: Sunday, September 9 2007 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #136
Iffy actually adapted and grew over time. I don't think anyone beat up on his annoying behaviors any less over time; there just were less of them to beat up on. Iffy learned. He turned an annoying gimmick into a funny one by drastically reducing the amount of time he spammed it and refining it a little bit.
Iffy also changed how he reacted to others. In the beginning he was very reactive and defensive if someone, for example, said he was being annoyed. After a little while he started to be more easy going; he listened to feedback if it was legitimate and laughed about it otherwise.

ET, I would like to know who exactly the oldbies were who attacked you in Geneforge debates. Because I can't think of any older members who've really been part of those debates in the time that you've been here -- or even very many members who are accepted and incorporated into the community here.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #137
Would you consider Kelandon an oldbie? In the thread that got my my very first banning (a tread called "Shapers Keeping Secrets", a Geneforge debate thread), he called me a doofus. I responded (without any name-calling) and Stareye, in his infinite wisdom, somehow gathered that my response was, quote, 'arrogant' and gave me my first ban. I did not break the CoC, I was banned for responding to a direct insult from someone whom I think we can all agree is an oldbie. This was acceptable to other members because I was new at the time. I can go on if you wish.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 04:29: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #138
Hmmm; maybe recent Geneforge debates have been ugly. I've avoided them because quick samples showed levels of clumsy reasoning and violent rhetoric above my currently low tolerance threshold. So for all I know, they were above anyone's threshold.

But if this is so, then as Slarty says, this is not a 'mean oldbies' problem, because I don't think any real oldbies were involved. Maybe the Geneforge mods were just all snoozing for a while there?

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Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #139
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Would you consider Kelandon an oldbie? In the thread that got my my very first banning (a tread called "Shapers Keeping Secrets", a Geneforge debate thread), he called me a doofus. I responded (without any name-calling) and Stareye, in his infinite wisdom, somehow gathered that my response was, quote, 'arrogant' and gave me my first ban. I did not break the CoC, I was banned for responding to a direct insult from someone whom I think we can all agree is an oldbie.
You were banned for directly insulting aforementioned administrator after said administrator told you to cut back on the arrogance a little. I know, because I was there. ;)

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
Profile #140
I think I disliked you because you reminded me of the Lich that everyone loved (Please, don't ask). Now I see your argument makes perfect sense. You have my support.

EDIT: You have a point...

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 06:27: Message edited by: Jeran Korak ]

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*Eyes potential targets*
Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #141
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Would you consider Kelandon an oldbie? In the thread that got my my very first banning (a tread called "Shapers Keeping Secrets", a Geneforge debate thread), he called me a doofus. I responded (without any name-calling) and Stareye, in his infinite wisdom, somehow gathered that my response was, quote, 'arrogant' and gave me my first ban. I did not break the CoC, I was banned for responding to a direct insult from someone whom I think we can all agree is an oldbie. This was acceptable to other members because I was new at the time. I can go on if you wish.
ET, are you serious? The topic is here. Kelandon's exact words were "It would help if you finished reading the sentence, you doofus." This is not a direct insult. "Doofus" is a word people use when they're being friendly.

What happened is simple: the mods received a number of private complaints about your attitude. When it next showed up in a thread, *i asked you to chill out. You refused and snapped back. Thus, a ban. Less clear-cut than your ban for hateful pictures, but it's hard to argue you were being reasonable!

And more to the point here, you were DEFINITELY being more argumentative and less amiable than the older members in that thread. I don't think you can argue bias on this one.

Edit: Jeran, was it really necessary to quote a screen's worth of text in your last post? It really does make it harder to follow the thread when there are massive quote pyramids inserted for no reason. Please stop doing that.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 05:09: Message edited by: Disappearer ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #142
quote:
SoT:
I don't think any real oldbies were involved.
Did you not read what I just wrote? Or is Kelandon in fact not an oldbie?
quote:
Nioca:
You were banned for directly insulting aforementioned administrator
You speak as if you know what you are talking about, as if you know what the administrator was thinking. Perhaps you are not as in touch with the higher powers as you think. I have, in my mailbox, a message from Stareye stating that my comments directed at him played no part in my banning. Straight from the horses mouth. I was banned for 'arrogance.' When I asked Stareye to explain what the hell that meant, he said he felt no need to explain himself further.
quote:
Generic Mod:
"Doofus" is a word people use when they're being friendly.
You get to interpret what words mean for everyone else? My mental dictionary attaches negative connotations to that word, not friendly ones. Even if what you are saying was true, Kelandon is not my friend, so I took offense to his comment. I was being serious in that debate, and he resorted to name calling. I did not sink to his level, however, and instead choose to mock his argument, rather than him personally. I was punished accordingly.

And if I was being so unreasonable in that debate, why did no one tell me what I was doing wrong? People were being rude to me, so I was being rude right back. What the hell kind of warning is "your arrogance annoys us, cut it out" anyway? It wasn't even a real warning, it was just another insult from an older member directed at a new one. You'd think the people running these boards, at least, would use some tact when informing newer members of proper behavior.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 05:38: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #143
quote:
Generic Mod:
Less clear-cut than your ban for hateful pictures,
Woah, woah, let me make this clear: I was never banned for 'hateful pictures' as you put it. If you are referring to my cleverly edited picture of Italian immigrants to look like oppressed RW Cult members, I was specifically told I was banned for spamming that picture (banned for spamming the RWG forum, can you imagine?), not because of the picture's nature. That's the second time someone claimed to know something about why I was banned and was completely wrong.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 05:52: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
Profile #144
Blah Blah Blah Blah. Didn’t we have this exact conversation a couple of months ago? And a couple of months before that? It is pretty simple. If you’re here simply as Jeff’s customer who is interested in his games, you will most likely stay out of General and ask questions *regarding the games* in the games forums. You will most likely get your questions answered and move on. However, if you want to be a part of the community, participate in debates, surveys, etc. You will have to deal with the community. You can’t expect to come here and have things go your way.

As many have pointed out, most newbies do not get flamed at all. And most of the ones who do get flamed (Nioca, Iffy, Magma, Nalyd, and myself) grow up a bit, stop spamming, and later on are thankful for the earlier treatment since it made them less embarrassed of their posts. So in the end, it works. It might not be the best system, but no one is making you be a part of it. Aren’t you in college? Why don’t you shut up, grow up, and leave the whining to kids.
Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #145
You were _not_ banned for spamming, although you did somewhat spam the picture. There's a subtle distinction here. You were banned because you were asked by the mods not to post that picture, and then you posted it again, repeatedly. And the reason you were asked not to post it was because of its (arguably) hateful content.

The frustrating thing about this conversation is that I am trying to be on your side, ET, but you keep acting like I'm trying to take you down. I think, oddly enough, Salmon's words in this topics for the wisest. You see others as being against you whether or not they are, and then you complain about it so much that you end up turning people against you for real.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #146
M: That would be fine if what you were saying was true. All too many times I have seen people ask legitimate questions about the games in the game forums only to have their questions mocked by someone like Thuryl and left unanswered. As a consumer of the games, I like to come here to talk about them, and am constantly confronted with a hostile community, more concerned with personal attacks than with discussing the games, in the game forums! My point is that you are hostile towards customers, and that is the problem I have with this community.

S: I was told specifically that I was banned for spamming the picture. Unfortunately, I did not keep that message. How convenient for you.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 06:30: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #147
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

All too many times I have seen people ask legitimate questions about the games in the game forums only to have their questions mocked by someone like Thuryl and left unanswered.
This happens more because people want to post a reply even if they have nothing to add. Iffy used to get told in topic to stop it. Thury is a troll, but most of the time he does give useful answers to a game question.

quote:

S: I was told specifically that I was banned for spamming the picture. Unfortunately, I did not keep that message. How convenient for you.

That banning was because you posted the same picture 8 times within a post and then repeated that for a few extra posts after being told to stop. Sure it was in the RWG forum in its death throes, but that picture was made to resemble Jewish Holocaust survivors which several members found offensive.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #148
ET, many of your posts in the past have been pretty abrasive, and whether you think they had reason to be, I don't think you can contend with a straight face that you have not rubbed people the wrong way in the past. To a certain extent, I believe you may actually enjoy it.

It may just boil down to a matter of you being misunderstood. If that's the case, however, it's much more cost-effective, so to speak, for you to make the effort to be better understood than for the rest of us to have to make the effort to understand you. I think you do have some valid points, but when they're couched in a hostile fashion, the message is often either undercut or missed, because when people interpret your posts as flaming or trolling, they are less inclined to take you seriously.

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 06:55: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #149
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

Thury is a troll, but most of the time he does give useful answers to a game question.
Can the same not be said for me? Yet I am the only one that get scolded and punished for the offenses. Is it because Thuryl has a lower member number than me, or is it because he taunts people with higher member numbers than I do?

Drew: Older members make sarcastic and offensive statement all the time, and then they are praised for their wisdom. Yet now you say that you agree with me, but that my message is undermined by my delivery. Why is it that the rules only apply to me? And why is it that everyone chooses to attack me while agreeing with me? Are they not undermining the message just as much as I am by doing so?

[ Thursday, April 10, 2008 07:01: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00

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