My God can beat up your God!

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AuthorTopic: My God can beat up your God!
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #125
Infernal: Google has 417,000 search results for the phrase you don't like. Are you going to try and get them to change the phrase, too?

I hold myself to a standard of respecting things that are important to other people, particularly when it's easy to do so. But not everyone agrees with me. If you always react so strongly to it, well...

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #126
quote:
Originally written by Maimonides:


quote:
Originally written by GremlinJoe:

By the way, The Torah and the new testament belong together. They're both true and are about the same thing.
They do not, and they are not.

Since in the Bible they are packaged together, I think it would be fair to at least say that your view isn't exactly universal.

[ Sunday, May 28, 2006 12:43: Message edited by: Ash Lael ]

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #127
quote:
Please remove that from your post. It is an insult to Judaism to have a name that God uses to describe Himself (and I think only Him, maybe a few prophets and/or angels also use it), casually flung about as if it were just any other name.
I've thought a bit.

The movement I refered to has drawn millions of members, and - as far as I know - is being actively supported by the catholic church.

I'm not a catholic myself. But I don't believe that what is being described as a charismatic evangelical movement has chosen its name in disrespect to God. And I am not aware of any intention to hurt or disrespect other religions.

That's why I choose to let my post stand as it is, though - as an individual - I am perfectly willing to respect your sensibilities.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
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Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #128
GremlinJoe has lost me. I can accept that he believes in an all-powerful, benevolent God who can and does work miracles. Fair enough. On the other hand, that still doesn't distinguish GremlinJoe's version of God from any of the more popular versions of the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim Gods.

"El" means God. Actually, it means god with a little G. "Shaddai" means almighty. Is there really a problem with people talking about God almighty? What makes "God almighty" more acceptable, or "Dios todopoderoso," or any language's equivalent except Hebrew's?

—Alorael, could possibly see being offended by some other deity being described with a uniquely Jewish term. Since the Abrahamic God is the same whether you're Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, it's just a matter of theological trappings that go with the term.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #129
IMAGE(http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/readingup/06/26/american.gods/vert.american.gods.jpg)

The answers lie here.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1814
Profile #130
I really don't have a version of God. All I have to know about him are what I've experienced first hand or read in the bible. Most versions of God get formed by circumstances such as individual donominational variations (basicly religion), but I have no backround of such a religious nature and strive to not deviate from what I personally know as true such as is seen and written.

What I mean is, many churches have developed very differing views of God based on religion or tradition over time. I have no such snares and am only able to see God as he shows himself to be without any predisposed thinking.

Outside of individual or denominational perceptions there are really only two gods from whom Judaism Christianity and Islam are about. Allah, the moon-god of islam, and the nameless god of Israel. What I'm saying is that I'm adhering to the original and unchanging god of Israel(original as in without any religious or cultural influences). Who himself hasn't changed at all in all of time while the theology about him has developed multiple schisms and offshoots.

My god isn't someone no one has heard of. Nor is it a personal version of anything. He is written about in the Old and New Testament plain and simple. And very real.

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The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature.

Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ.
Posts: 215 | Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #131
quote:
Originally written by Nation Function:

the Abrahamic God is the same whether you're Jewish, Christian, or Muslim
You know, I'm really sick of hearing this. The Jewish God and the Christian God, for example, are certainly related, and certainly have a lot of things in common, but they simply aren't identical. Christians may assert that they are, but Christians and Jews believe a very different set of things about the figure. Saturn is not the same god as Kronos even if they are historically related and have a lot in common. "God" is not the same word as "Dieu" or "Dios" or "Deus" or "Theos" even if they signify similar things.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #132
But they are identical. That's why Jesus and Mohammed are later prophets in Islam and Christianity takes off of the Old Testament, not to mention that Jesus was Jewish and carried the new teachings of God.

I've never seen anything saying that they're different beyond nutters who think that Allah is Satan.

EDIT: We may believe different things about God, and whether his later teachings are real, or whether or not Jesus was the Messiah, but it's still the same God.

[ Sunday, May 28, 2006 17:33: Message edited by: Drakefyre ]

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #133
So your argument is basically "No, they are the same God, because they are identical."

Suppose I argue that the Jewish God is actually the same entity as Enlil (or some other Mesopotamian chief god). Historians have advanced such unusual views in the past. I can point out how the ancient Israelis derived parts of their religion from Mesopotamian traditions, and I can point out similarities between the two gods, and I can use your argument and say they are the same god because they are the same god.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #134
Let's say Allah is a red apple and Yahweh is a green apple. Is there a meaningful difference between disagreeing over the colour of the apple and believing in different apples?

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #135
quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Let's say Allah is a red apple and Yahweh is a green apple. Is there a meaningful difference between disagreeing over the colour of the apple and believing in different apples?
Your analogy presumes what you intend to prove (that the Koran and Bible are written about different Gods). A more accurate one would be Allah and Yahweh being the same apple - and one person believing it a red apple and another that it is a green apple.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #136
What I set out to prove was actually that it's functionally irrelevant whether we are talking about different gods or different concepts of the same god.

One person says there is a green apple, one says there is a red apple, (and another says there is no apple at all). Does it make a difference whether they're arguing whether the apple is green or red or if they're arguing whether the red apple or the green apple exists?

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #137
...headache

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #138
quote:
Originally written by Vlishnu:

So your argument is basically "No, they are the same God, because they are identical."

Suppose I argue that the Jewish God is actually the same entity as Enlil (or some other Mesopotamian chief god). Historians have advanced such unusual views in the past. I can point out how the ancient Israelis derived parts of their religion from Mesopotamian traditions, and I can point out similarities between the two gods, and I can use your argument and say they are the same god because they are the same god.

Not the same. Judaism emphatically denies that One and Only God is Enlil. The Mesopotamians aren't around to debate the point, but I think they'd deny that Jews worship Enlil too. They may be the same by descent, but they're not the same theologically.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims by and large agree that they're all worshipping the same divine entity. Exactly how to worship that entity, what it has said and done, and who speaks for it is under debate, but there's no debate over the entity itself.

Also, saying "dieu" and "dios" and "deus" and so on aren't the same is linguistically absurd. They really are the same word from the same root. "God" is a distinct word, but it covers the same concept. God with a capital G could be distinct from Dios with a capital D, but that still seems like a bizarre distinction. Catholics in Rome and Catholics in Belize have no theological disagreement about who they're praying too regardless of language. (Whether it should all be in Latin or not is another issue.)

—Alorael, who is entertained by atheists who specifically reject the red or green apple gods. If you are not believing, must you pick a specific entity in which not to believe over all other potential entities?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #139
quote:
Originally written by Cacothanasia:

—Alorael, who is entertained by atheists who specifically reject the red or green apple gods. If you are not believing, must you pick a specific entity in which not to believe over all other potential entities?
I don't know any atheists like that, although it can seem that way because our non-belief in ancient reptile gods is immediately accepted by everyone without argument or surprise, so you never hear about it again. However, our non-belief in popular gods is much more often argued against, often in specific terms, and so defending our position tends to end up being arguing against specific gods.

[ Sunday, May 28, 2006 23:21: Message edited by: Khoth ]

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

desperance.net - Don't follow this link
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
La Canaliste
Member # 5563
Profile #140
These last posts have just opened my eyes to the understanding that theism includes an element of atheism, in that the re are very few people (who must be very confused) who would believe in ALL possible gods. Thus belief in one particular system of divinity tends to exclude belief in some others: monotheism excludes dualism or polytheism, for example.
I have no idea where that idea leads, except to say that total atheism is maybe an extreme form of a beief system but not different in kind from theism.

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I am a mater of time and how .

Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas!
Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1814
Profile #141
I'm not confused. I have always known about the one true god. I was just seperated from him and although I wanted to be one of his people, I couldn't. Someone else Took his place against my will.

This was one of those "survival of the strongest and I'm stronger than you" types. I had no choice, but I always knew they weren't a god because there is only one. Plus they said they got in trouble with the real one which I believed although couldn't understand why. But thats a long story and no one's ever properly explained that to me.

Not confused. Oh and Allah is a different god from Israel's, unless the original moon god of Mecca changed his job description in the last thousand years. By the way I also believe that the Muslim massiah is coming but my massiah (Jesus)will get here after him.

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The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature.

Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ.
Posts: 215 | Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #142
I think I've worked out what god GremlinJoe worships and why he seems to say such weird things about it:
quote:
Originally written by GremlinJoe:

The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature.



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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

desperance.net - Don't follow this link
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #143
So, a summary of what I must now assume about RealityCorp (that's you, GremlinJoe, right?):

- a *cough*fanatic*cough* devoted Christian
- who believes Christ is a lightbulb
- and was formerly a follower of David Icke (reptilian world conspiracy).

Wow.

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My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #144
quote:
Originally written by Cacothanasia:

Not the same. Judaism emphatically denies that One and Only God is Enlil. The Mesopotamians aren't around to debate the point, but I think they'd deny that Jews worship Enlil too.
Are you sure about that? Enlil was worshipped by various people for thousands of years, and while some of them would differentiate him from the Jewish God, I'm not so sure that most of them would. Mesopotamia was a place of numerous overlapping cultures and constant instability, and religion was often syncretist. Given some of the overlap -- their general attitudes and conceptions and, perhaps most blatantly, their duplicate roles in the Flood -- I think many would call them the same.

quote:
They may be the same by descent, but they're not the same theologically.
...
Also, saying "dieu" and "dios" and "deus" and so on aren't the same is linguistically absurd.

They may be the same by descent, but they're not the same linguistically. This is practically an exact parallel.

Seriously, saying they are the same is linguistically absurd.

quote:
They really are the same word from the same root. "God" is a distinct word, but it covers the same concept. God with a capital G could be distinct from Dios with a capital D, but that still seems like a bizarre distinction.
No, they really are different words from the same root. The fact that they have similar (or arguably identical) meanings is exactly my point. In terms of what the words mean, "dios" and "deus" don't have anything more in common than "dios" and "god" do. There are other religions besides J C and I that are monotheistic and feature a God that has just as much in common with the Jewish conception of God as the Christian conception of God does. I don't see how being historically related gives the Jewish and Christian Gods a monopoly on being "identical" according to your definition.

quote:
Jews, Christians, and Muslims by and large agree that they're all worshipping the same divine entity.
Sure. So what about the ones who don't agree? Is the opinion of the majority the only thing that matters? Or would you say instead "The God of most Christians and most Muslims is the same"?

In sum:
1) If they're the same because they're historically related, there's no reason not to include other historical relations.
2) If they're the same because they're theologically similar, there's no reason not to include other similar theologues.
3) If they're the same because people say they are, then aren't they also not the same because people say they're not?

quote:
—Alorael, who is entertained by atheists who specifically reject the red or green apple gods. If you are not believing, must you pick a specific entity in which not to believe over all other potential entities?
I'm sorry, did I say something to make you think I was an atheist? :eek:

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5483
Profile #145
Anyone else notice how many religions use cult tactics? For examle, Christianity says anyone who is not a Christian will go to hell. Also, have you noticed how similar Christianity and Islam are? Yet many members of these religions really seem to hate any member of the other. Myself, I was raised as a Christian, but I don't believe in any god now, and it has been that way for over a year.

[ Monday, June 05, 2006 03:22: Message edited by: The_Other_Guy ]

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Ignorance Is bliss -Cypher (Matrix)
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sanity is overrated :)
Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, February 7 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #146
quote:
Yet members of these religions hate members of the other.
Will you please change that statement.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1814
Profile #147
I don't know who RealityCorp is. I've only ever been 1 person here. I think moderators can check on that.

I don't believe Christ is a light bulb. I don't know where you got that from, it has nothing to do with Jesus but instead A long forgotten facet of a pursona used for purposes no one on the net has ever had to deal with. Remnants of an act I put on back in another time and place. Totally irrelevent nonetheless.

And have no idea who David Icke is. I got involved with something far weirder and possibly more violent. And believe me definatly more obscure. And I won't talk anymore on that in particular.

Edit: and don't even bother puting any of my profile information down to explain who I am because thats unchanged from the day I first joined the boards and I was rather drunk and sarcastic, namly because of a topic that favored the Empire's right to exile people for differing viewpoints, but thats besides the point. By Further more, I don't drink very often and I don't think I've ever posted drunk. Sleep deprived, yes. with thyroid problems, yes. drunk, no.

[ Monday, May 29, 2006 07:45: Message edited by: GremlinJoe ]

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The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature.

Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ.
Posts: 215 | Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #148
quote:
Originally written by Major:

quote:
Yet members of these religions hate members of the other.
Will you please change that statement.

Justify.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon
Well, I'm at least pretty

Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #149
RC is not and has never been GremlinJoe.
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00

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