My God can beat up your God!
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 02:39
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I never claimed to have knowledge on the matter. TM did. Have fun with your double standard biases because I'm not providing any. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 04:19
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It's still not a proper response to the position Thuryl ascribed to TM at all, namely that the statement could not be proven to be either true or false due to a lack of information - arriving at "TM must then be able to prove that the statement is false" from this is pretty nonsensical. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 04:54
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Yes, but if he states a statement like that (x = y, or x != y) he should be able to prove that. Never mind Thuryl's opinion on the matter of provability. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 04:55: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 04:57
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quote:Why should he? If everyone stopped making utterly unfounded claims, nobody would ever have anything to argue about any more, and what fun would that be? [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 04:58: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 06:38
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OK, on unfounded statements. Mohammed did say he was God. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 08:06
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Jesus saves! So does L. Ron Hubbard! —Alorael, who has made an unfounded yet indisputable pair of statemenst. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 08:40
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The words of Jesus as written in the Bible, an enduring bestseller. Books by L. Ron Hubbard...pfft. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 08:41: Message edited by: Pez ] -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 17:21
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quote:I like the part where you've totally debase any logical base for the bible's infallible status. I think it's a piss-poor example of how it's somehow become easier to affirm something than to negate something. But: Your argument is based on the notion that the bible is infallible. That's just about it. Now keep in mind that the bible has undergone multiple translations over time, and that it never even had to be jesus' words in the first place, considering that the gospels were written some three-hundred years (give or take) after his death. If I suggest, for instance, that deifying jesus made it easier for Constantine to sell christianity to the Romans (thus giving BOTH Constantine and the persecuted proto-papacy motives for making it so), it makes for a far more cogent argument than "some people who never even met jesus were able to faithfully reproduce his words." But what gets me is that I have to provide an alternative, rather than simply remark, "that's absurd" (since the only way to prove christianity requires a direct intervention of god) and leave it as-is. Honestly. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 18:03
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quote:No he didn't, you dumb bigot. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 18:10
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Deify me. Come on. I dare you. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 18:29
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*deifies Salmon* -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 19:16
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quote:Yeaa! After watching Southpark last week I know who L. Ron is and what scientology is. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 19:36
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quote:Oh great. Now your God is gonna moo me to some sort of duel. I better go visit the Ironman thread to get on a training regime. Gotta get buff if I am gonna have any chance at beating your meathead deity. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 20:04
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Worst man, get intelligent life because you are lacking it. My comment was sarcasm, and fairly obvious I might add. Of course Mohammed never said he was God and Islam does not hold him out to be one either. It was an unfounded statement...in otherwords their was NO BASIS FOR IT. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 20:10
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TM, you are probably well aware of this next point and likely have even addressed it but part of the argument for the infallibility of the scriptures is that they are "God breathed". Of course, this is circular in that, once again, you must prove God exists (or have that faith) in order to accept this. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 20:48
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quote:Fair enough. I withdraw the first part of my statement. Also, 'intelligent life' does not mean what you think it means. --- quote:The infallibility of the scriptures as we have them is literally impossible. The addition or redaction of clauses and verses is well-known to history (and was common practice before people got the asinine idea the Bible was a literal document), and there have been a hundred Bibles compiled from a hundred canons by a hundred editorial committees. So either you're wrong or God really has it out for the people who mistakenly believe they've got the right copy. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 20:52: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 21:00
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quote:Yeah, pretty much. Of course, there's the added kink that even if the word was infallible at its inception, it needn't be infallible nowadays, but the deus-ex-machina explanation falls out pretty easily when you've already assumed the deus as a working premise. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 22:41
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quote:Fun, tangentially relevant fact: there's some historical debate over whether Constantine ever actually converted to Christianity in his lifetime, or whether it was simply convenient for his successors to claim that he did. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1092
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 22:46
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quote:I'll second that, I have two copies of the bible myself. One day I thought I had a case against The DaVinci Code, but read the bible again and found out that I got confused with a few people in it. -------------------- When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel. Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place. Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 04:20
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quote::D Perhaps I need some intelligent life. ;) -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 11:19
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quote:That's not pretzel logic; it's citing a document which disproves your statment. If you have issues with the credability of the document, go ahead and disprove the document, but don't insult my logic. -------------------- The Silent Assassin believes that he has come up with a new danze that will sweep the world in a mad craze. He calls it "The Cement Shoe". -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 13:11
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I don't think that any of you want to beat up my god. Long live the Church of the Giant Intelligent Not So Friendly Spider! -------------------- Constitutional monarchies are the in monarchies. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 16:34
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By TM: quote:I don't want to be overly pedantic, but this is wrong, at least in regard to the New Testament. The earliest gospel fragment we have today is a section of John that originated in Egypt (the Gospel was probably composed in Asia Minor). It's dated between 100 to 150 A.D. The bulk of the manuscripts, which are used for serious translations that wish to go directly from Greek to English, come from the second and third century. Combine this with over five thousand cataloged manuscripts to date, and the New Testament has a one-of-a-kind proliferation. The runner-up would be the Illiad, which has less than 650 manuscripts surviving today. The oldest date to around the second century, nearly ten centuries after it was written. -------------------- IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD: All members of my Legions of Terror will have professionally tailored uniforms. If the hero knocks a soldier unconscious and steals the uniform, the poor fit will give him away. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 17:21
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quote:How the heck is proliferation supposed to be an argument FOR a document being in its original form? Even if you have five thousand manuscripts that are substantially the same -- which I am skeptical of -- what that suggests is just that a certain version got massively proliferated. However, the document could already have changed before being proliferated. There's no reason to assume, just because something got copied, that it's in its original form. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Thursday, May 25 2006 05:51
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quote:Well, my guess is that you would have to study the history of how documents were created and reproduced to answer this. I suspect that this issue has been critically looked at by historians (and not just bible historians). The manner in which documents were translated and copied, checked and rechecked for errors and how recorded history was passed through generations and into other languages would all be relevant to supporting the authenticity of the documents. I suspect there is quite a lot of support to the authenticity of the various historical recordings of the bible. It is not simply an issue of "well we found another version of the bible, dated AD 300 and its pretty darn similar to the other versions therefore its good to go". -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |