Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, July 4 2004 12:39
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Because there are certain parts of reality that fundies would rather not admit exist. Fundies would rather have answers handed to them, so a new problem that hasn't been explicitly defined by the Bible/Koran/whatever is completely beyond their reach. Forgive me, but I've found that on these message boards, one must insult people to get them talking. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3022
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written Sunday, July 4 2004 15:02
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quote:Well, some of the stuff certainly did make sense to several sects. For example, followers of Mary Magladen, the early christian gnostics, and the sects who believed that Christ was not actually the son of god. However, they happened to be minority, and most importantly did not hold real political power. Several of their ideas were also unfashionable - such as giving women equal rights as men in the church. The perfect solution was to produce a singular authoritative version, denounce the others, and then try to put a seal on history by declaring God never changes. Theology, following political convenience. Posts: 269 | Registered: Saturday, May 24 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 02:02
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quote:Let me say that I'm not attacking gays. I just limit myself to write what I think is right, not what I like or what I think it should be. I have a couple of friends that are gay, but I'm not lesser friend of them because of that, nor I consider them lesser friends for that. Just as I have friends that abuse on alcohol constantly, but I don't discriminate them. What I can't do is to agree with what they do, but that doesn't mean I don't love them as my friends. quote:That's a common mistake people do: they blame God for everything. Do you think God made you that way? How about crippled and retarded children? It was Him who created them that way? I don't think so. That's why christians have to "born again". They don't born perfet, they don't born from God anymore. So they have to be baptized so that they can have a new and perfect start. quote:Jesus learned everything from the Scriptures and quoted them many many times in His life. He trusted them. How can someone be divinely inspired and tell lies or untruths? quote:I don't see why would be God joining you toghether, as it would be agains't what He teached us. And as God said: He "doesn't change". quote:There's no gay story in the Bible. Sorry. This is just homosexual propaganda, trying to justify their sin. quote:First, it's you who are speculating that there was a gay relationship in there. Second, Jesus said that He came to cure the sick, the sinners. And that's what He did. Just because someone is a sinner, God doesn't love him less. I'm not saying that God doesn't love someone that is gay. God loves us all. But He is justice, so e can't tolerate sin. That's why He says in the end people will be separated. Some will be saved, others not. Not because He doesn't love every and each one of them, but because He is a God of Justice too. quote:Well... That's what is written in the Sacred Scriptures... quote:Let's clarify this again: I'm not judging anyone. I'm just saying what I think is right. Not because I want to criticize gay people, but because I want to let everyone know what I think is right, so that they can walk the right path and be saved. I'm not writting all this stuff because I don't like you, but because I like you. Anyway, the message is given and it's up to you to decide what is right or wrong. I won't bother you again or try to make you feel guilty. It's your choice, God gave us that gift: we can choose our own path. Sometimes we pick the wrong one. Believe me, I wish homosexuals could be saved (I mean, the ones that are truly and inate homosexuals). Just as many other sinners. I'm not gay, but I'm far from perfect. I have many other sins to deal with, just like anyone of us. But just remember that for a sin to be forgiven, we must repent. "Repent and never do that again" (or something like that, in english). quote:It's not that evident. Anyway, the Bible says our world is corrupted. It even says Satan is the prince of this world. All His creation is being corrupted, until someday He comes, ends evil and renew everything.  -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 02:43
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quote:This is interesting. So you would put justice above love? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 02:56
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They are both equal. But one cannot be satisfied at the expense of the other. This is why Jesus had to die, because God loves us enough to give us an escape route, and put the choice of whether we face His justice onto us, not Him. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 04:44
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Overwhelming, I encourage you to learn classical history. Sherlock's points are largely on target. And yes, you are judging him. Be a friend and open your mind to possibilities that may make you uncomfortable. It's how we grow. And, just to spur on further conversation, is it not the case that Jesus in the Gospels never said a word one way or the other about homosexuality? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4154
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 04:53
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quote:In the Gospels, for example, I think there's a record of Jesus speaking to a demon that he cast out, where the demon says that he knows who Jesus is, and Jesus tells him to be quiet. quote:By "book" I didn't mean the Bible, I mean a book in the bible. I am aware that the Bible is written by a bunch of different people. I was referring to any one book in the Gospels. -------------------- You're a moron if you think I'm not. Posts: 213 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 06:15
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Just found this topic. Needless to say, I have my own strong views, but since I'm short on time I'll only provide them in brief. 1. Jesus died for us all, from the saints to the paedophiles. 2. I don't believe homosexuality is a natural thing. Males and females were designed for each other, and desires for the same sex, or for animals, or dead people, or children, are not the way things are meant to be. Whether they're caused by genetic defects or upbringing or whatever, I can't say for certain. Probably causes vary greatly from case to case. We live in a fallen world and many things aren't perfect - I have a brother who's autistic. 3. I don't hate homosexuals for being evil perversions or anything like that - generally speaking, I feel sorry for them. I'd hate to live like that. 4. I have read books by people who have changed their sexual orientation, so it is possible in some cases at least. 5. David and Jonathan were not gay, and it's ridiculous to say they were. They were like brothers, not lovers. 6. Regarding hemophrodites (sp?) and suchlike, I'm not going to pretend there are any easy answers. As I said before, we live in a fallen world, and many people are physically flawed in one way or another. I sincerely pity anyone who is forced to deal with issues like that. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 14:23
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Homosexuality has to be a natural thing. It may not be the most common or accepted but it is natural. Females were designed to have children, but they don't have to, same thing with homosexuality. I am supposed to be attracted to women sexually but I'm not, whether it is a conscious decision or not, I don't know. I have read books by people who have changed their sexual preference, not orientation, there is a difference. Why do you feel sorry for gays? IS it wrong? You'd hate to live like that why, because you'd watch a different type of porn? There is absolutely no difference between me and you. -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 14:27
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[quote]It's your choice, God gave us that gift: we can choose our own path. Sometimes we pick the wrong one.[/quote]Please reread a few posts. It's not a choice. It's genetic programming, and asking someone to change that is akin to ordering someone to have a sex change. It's ridiculous. If someone is physically unable to perform a duty required by Scripture, is he a sinner? If not, I find it hard to believe that homosexuals are. Just because the physical cause is microscopic doesn't mean it's not real. quote:Once again falling back on the Old Testament, I fail to see fire and brimstone coming on Judgement Day. God understands that we are imperfect. We will sin. We will apologize and continue to sin. He have to like it, but the OT does say that He's not going to smite us for it. Again, I claim that the Old Testament is more directly from the mouth of God if you believe Biblical literalism. quote:The demon could have any number of claims to make, not least among them that Jesus was just an ordinary guy. Or maybe the illegitimate descendant of a prominent merchant. Or a martian. Whatever he was going to say was left unsaid. quote]Originally written by The Creator 4. I have read books by people who have changed their sexual orientation, so it is possible in some cases at least.[/quote]I question the authenticity of those reports. There's no way to prove it either way, but I know a number of such conversions have come from those who were never homosexual to begin with or who never truly found happiness in a new heterosexual lifestyle. ?Alorael, who supposes this is argument for the sake of argument now. There's no way to make convincing arguments when religious views clash. At least Spidweb has a long, healthy tradition of inconclusive arguments in the same vein (and on the same topic matter). Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 16:09
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So I'm not just referencing vague general sources. I doubt any of you have read that one, but it's good. Written by a former gay and former lesbian who are now married. They now have a ministry helping other people who want to change. I'm not saying that anyone could change if they wanted to - I feel entirely unqualified to make claims like that - but unless you're going to label these people as incredible fraudsters, it's apparent that at least some people can change their sexuality. Not that it's easy, mind. Perhaps I should define what I mean by 'unnatural'. I believe that if our bodies and minds were perfect, there would be no homosexuality. I don't deny that some people can't help feeling attracted to the same sex - that's just the way they are. However, I believe that desire is caused by genetic defects, upbringing, or something like that. I don't believe that God designed people to be homosexual, any more than he designed people to be sexually attracted to children. quote:I do believe homosexuality is wrong, I believe necrophilia is wrong, I believe bestiality is wrong, I believe paedophilia is wrong. I feel very sorry for anyone whose 'natural' desires (as in, it's not their choice to feel that way or fault that they do) go so strongly against what's right. However, wanting something doesn't make it any more right - doesn't matter if you're a homosexual, paedophile, or someone with a really bad temper. You need to subdue and control those desires, and if possible, change them. Quick point of clarification - I don't watch porn. That's also wrong. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 16:16
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I cannot respond to that without Godwin being invoked, so I won't. All I can say is that you can indeed change your sexuality. It's an incredibly psychologically damaging process no matter what kind of pretty words you put on it, is often closely associated with mental and physical abuse, and this sort of treatment is most commonly given to children by parents who are infuriated with reasonably normal childhood experimentation for religious reasons. You can indeed change your sexuality. You can also be shipped to a camp and browbeaten into believing you are the opposite sex or a different race or nationality. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that or tolerate people who encourage it, to be honest; that sort of thing only causes mental damage. But hey, three cheers for random religious taboos. Let's hear it for female circumcision and slavery, two other perfectly socially acceptable processes brought to you by the same sort of thinking that gives you 'conversion' of homosexuals. [ Tuesday, July 06, 2004 16:21: Message edited by: Ultimate Weapon Custer ] -------------------- They want to have a war to keep their factories They want to have a war to keep us on our knees They want to have a war to stop us buying Japanese They want to have a war to stop industrial disease They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind They want to suck your energy, incarcerate your mind Give you Rule Brittania, gassy beer, page three Two weeks in Hispania and sunday striptease Meanwhile, the first Jesus says, "I'll cure it soon Abolish Monday mornings and Friday afternoons" The other one's out on hunger strike, he's dying by degrees How come Jesus gets industrial disease? Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 16:16
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quote:You sure have a hell of a lot of judgement and ego for a purported Christian, you know that? -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 17:17
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It is possible to discuss without falling back on insults. The Hitler reference took it too far. ?Alorael, who still thinks that this is a surprisingly calm discussion. It would be very nice to keep it that way. Take the unveiled insults elsewhere. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 17:57
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Why? The viewpoint "What I am is perfect, and everyone different is flawed" seems mighty similar to Nazism to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Creator took the comparison as a compliment. It doesn't matter. I'm out of this thread anyway. -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 18:36
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Djur, Alec - sorry, but I'm not going to respond. You do raise some valid arguments and I'd be happy to reply to them, but not when they're presented in such an aggressive manner. Ask me the difficult questions if you like, but don't accuse me of being like a Nazi. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 18:41
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Note that Alec is not me, contrary to popular belief, and he was reasonably polite. More polite than a garden-variety fanatic deserves, in my opinion. Oh, and nice attempt to dodge everything Alec said. [ Tuesday, July 06, 2004 18:43: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 19:52
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I'm not trying to dodge anything. I'm perfectly willing to answer any question raised in the spirit of inquiry and discussion - trying to understand the opposing point of view rather than throw mud at it. And please lay off the personal insults. You'll end up getting yourself banned. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1104
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 20:11
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quote:This is exactly why I decided not to respond to this thread after a while. -------------------- Chance Forums Posts: 1307 | Registered: Tuesday, May 7 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 20:36
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Excuse me Mr./Mrs. "Creator", how do you see that a way of life that I'm perfectly happy with is wrong? How exactly is it wrong in your mind? Just because the two people who are in love are of the same sex? If it isn't the fact that they are in love, is it the fact that they express their love physically? Or is it just because the real "creator" said it was wrong? -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, July 6 2004 23:07
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Creator, I'll agree with you that it takes a pretty selective reading of the Bible to interpret it as condoning homosexuality. I'll also agree that practising homosexuals who consider themselves Christian have some serious questions to ask themselves. I, however, am not a Christian, and so far your explanation of why you think homosexuality is wrong (and that of most others who agree with you on this topic) boils down to "men and women were designed for each other by God". Since trying to convert each other is likely to be unproductive, do you have any non-theological arguments to support your position? Of course, I'd expect you to base any arguments you make only on moral principles which you yourself would feel comfortable agreeing to, and since your theology probably has a rather important place in your own ethical system I'll understand if you can't find any non-theological arguments which you agree with. (I'd ask your opinion of how exactly religion and morality are related, but then we'd have to start debating ontology and that way lies madness.) Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Wednesday, July 7 2004 00:53
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This is hard to explain, but I'll try. I like many of my male friends very much. I don't love them, but I see how it could be possible if the feelings were stronger. Is that what homosexuality is? Also, there's the culture thing. In many ancient cultures men loved each other very strongly, without being gay (I'm over-using the word love here but I hope you get my meaning). Nowadays people think of homosexuality as a genetical trait, but is it really more than love? I approve of homosexuality at all levels, but I think I could "approve more" if it truly isn't anything but feelings. Saying that it's genetical does make it sound like an disease, doesn't it? Of course, this alone doesn't justify homosexuality. Pedophilia is wrong even if you really had true feelings for the children (which seems to be quite common among pedophiles). This is where the moral comes in (I take a utilitarian stand in this one). Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone, and thus there is nothing wrong with it. This might have sounded crude and even cruel, but that's one point of view. Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Wednesday, July 7 2004 01:14
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quote:I don't think so, and I told you why. Can you do the same? quote:You're the one accusing me for doing something. Jesus opened some eyes many times. Was He judging them? I don't think so. The apostles wrote letters to churches, exposing some wrong deeds, calling their atention. Were they judging people? No. You have to see the difference. quote:Jesus followed the Law. The Law already tells us something about homosexuality. So Jesus only had to refer to that if He had something different to say. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Wednesday, July 7 2004 01:26
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quote:You can be homosexual, but don't practice homosexualism. Just like a kleptomaniac can't claim he can steal because he is a kleptomniac. (Am I using the right word?) It' not easy to follow the law, not because it's unfair, but because we have a corrupted nature. That's another reason why we have to "born again". quote:He doesn't have to act agains't the Bible too. Just because someone doesn't feel atracted for the opposite sex, that doesn't mean he has to have sex with people of the same sex. Even if he feels attracted to them. quote:Show me that. And why did they do the sacrifice rituals then? The sheep was representing Jesus. And Jesus said: repent and don't do it again. Also said that we should love God above all and with all our heart. What kind of love is that, that doesn't obey Him, that doesn't trust Him that His laws are for our own good? That's hypocrisy. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Wednesday, July 7 2004 01:27
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quote:You're judging him, and insulting him, so what do you have to say? -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |