Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual
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Warrior
Member # 4599
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 06:29
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Strange... To the creator of this topic, whether it was your intent or not I beleive you have started a holy war. -------------------- The only use of fancy titles is to draw attention away from one's lack of power.- Erika Redmark *Erika fan currently in exile for ignorance* Posts: 135 | Registered: Tuesday, June 22 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 06:38
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Dude, if we were meant to be flawed, then your God is a sick joker. Why do you believe this? If God is God and we can't understand God, then who says you who are flawed can understand what is right from what is wrong or have the monopoly on divine authority? Humanity is far too stupid and self-absorbed to approach this matter with anything close to authority. Wait, wait! I'm just getting a message from my God, and she says that you are completely wrong and going to burn in Hell, because of your bigotry. And I know I'm right because my God told me so, and it's that way, and I'm just right.  QUESTION YOUR FAITH. Religion is the creation of man, who is, by many folks' admissions here, a flawed beast. A flawed beast with flawed personal/group agendas. If you don't think these agendas get mixed in, then you are fools. Boy - so much acid from me! I apologize, but I get very angry with wrong-headed unquestioning willful ignorance. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4599
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 06:46
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Willful ignorance? Religion is created by man, on there belief that there holy book says this and that. I am not very intelligent, but after seeing what God can do, I need no further proof of his exsistence. Also if you know anything about God you will know there is a reason why he created the flawed being we call man. Please take your willfull ignorance else where, it will get you nowhere with me. EDIT: And for someone who lives in America, you truly are ignoring Gods blessing on your country. Look at the rest of the world, including the Middle East. You are a very lucky person. [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 06:57: Message edited by: were244 ] -------------------- The only use of fancy titles is to draw attention away from one's lack of power.- Erika Redmark *Erika fan currently in exile for ignorance* Posts: 135 | Registered: Tuesday, June 22 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 06:57
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Well, until I see God come down and smite a homosexual, I'll continue to believe there's nothing wrong with that lifestyle, and continue to scorn people such as yourself who think there is and therefore are the reason homosexuals' lives can be hell on earth. EDIT: I apologize again to the regulars (except maybe FBM  , who's somehow steered clear of this topic - is something wrong, FBM?) - I try not to use invective language, but occasionally I falter.[ Thursday, July 08, 2004 07:11: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4599
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:01
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Ye of little faith. Soddom and Gomorra, is a good example, destroyed for all the horrible sins that took place there. Though I can tell the Bible is nothing more then paper to you, it is still true, and I will happily take that to my grave. -------------------- The only use of fancy titles is to draw attention away from one's lack of power.- Erika Redmark *Erika fan currently in exile for ignorance* Posts: 135 | Registered: Tuesday, June 22 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:10
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Oh sure, that account must be as true as both the creation stories in Genesis. Wait a minute! But those stories are just allegory! ...but that might mean... other stories, too? No way! The OT was written thousands of years ago, put down on paper by men who had an agenda at the time, then retranscribed, lost, rediscovered, translated, et cetera to evolve into what you pick and choose from for your faith today. What is accomplished by discriminating against homosexuals? You probably eat pork, but that's not okay in Leviticus. Easily ignorable though, because that doesn't make sense, right? Why is homosexuality different than dietary instructions, which take up way more scriptural real estate? But discriminating in your diet affects you personally, and is way harder to cope with, so that conveniently falls by the wayside. People who are different, on the other hand, are easy targets - they don't affect your life directly, and you never have to worry about having their problem, so you go ahead and point your finger, and have the comfort of the writings of the Bible to back you up. Way to go. I'll admit that I tend to be a little prejudiced in my dealings with people who are different - I'm a bit fearful about all the short people speaking Spanish around me that seem to be multiplying everyday. Xenophobia is natural fact of life. But claiming God is on one side and not another is arrogant - if you are flawed just like the rest of us, then you have no authority to make such statements. [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 07:17: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4599
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:15
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Comparing gays to diets? I am sorry, but thats really not a good argument. Look I can tell God means nothing to you. FINE. Part of being human is the choice to do what you want, whether it be right or wrong. In the end, believe me or not, all will be judged for thier actions. Good, or terribly bad. EDIT: Honestly, you need to see what you have closed yourself off from, you may be surprised at what it might accomplish. Also, your blasphemy is grounded in little or no faith. [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 07:19: Message edited by: were244 ] -------------------- The only use of fancy titles is to draw attention away from one's lack of power.- Erika Redmark *Erika fan currently in exile for ignorance* Posts: 135 | Registered: Tuesday, June 22 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:22
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How is the dietary argument faulty? It's in the Bible - it's even been referenced before in this topic. Yet you ignore it. Why is it any different to ignore the dietary requirements than to ignore the no lying with another man requirement? God does have meaning to me - I'm grateful for the chance to live, it's been a pretty swell experience so far - but I don't claim to know what God thinks about this or that, diets or sexual preference, etc. That's the height of hubris. Maybe we'll be judged, but if we are, I reckon it'll be on the basis of no standard any of us on Earth can comprehend. [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 07:24: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:27
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quote:I believe this says it all. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:29
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quote:Well, like I said before, the Christian (and, I think, Muslim and Jewish) view on sex in general is that it is good only in so far as that it results in new life. Sex, including the heterosexual variety, solely for pleasure is frowned on. As gays cannot possibly create new life, the Church's position is that they should not engage in sexual activity. The Church dislikes homosexuals for the same reason it dislikes birth control: all the fun, none of the responsibility. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:31
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That's not strictly true. The Protestant Church in the UK accepts that sex can be for pleasure - they also allow contraception. I believe it's mainly the Catholic church and the evangelicals that disallow sex for pleasure and contraception. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:53
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I'm going to start w/the assumption that God/a god exists. Assuming he does, and that we were created by him, we now wonder how we were created. To me, I don't really care how, we just were. There's the theory that God/a god designed everything to evolve and work it's way out from millions of years ago, translating the Hebrew in Genesis differently, and there's also the 7-day theory. Either way, I'm assuming we were created. Now this supernatural God decided that we'd be able to make choices for ourselves, to choose whether or not to do this or that. He told us not to eat a certain fruit from a particular tree. And big bad Satan comes along, after being cast out from heaven for feeling himself greater than God, perhaps, and tells us that we'll know a lot more once we eat this fruit. And, strictly speaking, he was right. Now we know pain and suffering, now we know death and sickness and destruction. Perhaps God had already experianced it, and therefore "knew" it? Was forbidding the fruit his way of telling us not to kill each other, not to cause pain and suffering? I don't know. Either way, all his commandments have centered around the one basic command: Love all. Now, when applied to homosexuality, this means that if two men truely love each other, that might be alright. But if men just do it for pleasure, or to be different, or for whatever else reason, then it would be wrong. That's how I feel about it. If it's actually loving your "husband" then it might be alright. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 07:54
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quote:Sure were. But, see, God was even willing to not smite the place for the sake of 10 people - until he sent His angels there and all the people of the town gathered to try and rape them. As far as I can tell, trying to force yourself on one of God's messengers is pretty high on that list of things you just don't do, and God smote the city down. (This was one of his most justified smitings, if you take the Old Testament literally - he smote a lot of people for seemingly little reason, if you read the book of Exodus.) The point I'm trying to make is that having homosexual relationships was one of the least of the sins of the Sodomites, and I do not believe it got them destroyed. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 08:03
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DP, I doubt very much that many gay men are gay just to be different. Also, I've yet to have someone on this topic explain to me, without referring to religious texts, solely relying on their own arguments, why homosexuality is immoral. It harms no-one, so I find it very hard to believe it is a sin. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 08:42
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Um, were244, just so we're clear, there is a guy here who posts under the name the Creator. When we speak of our masterful BoE-er the Creator, we are not speaking of God (unless there's something I and everyone else really should know  ).I am intrigued by the Christian ideas about punishment, hellfire, and damnation, though. And free will, for that matter. If God created everything, and if he's all-knowing and whatever, didn't he either create our personalities directly or create the conditions under which our personalities would develop? In which case, wouldn't that toss aside free will entirely? Meh. Different issue. I do think it would be very interesting for many people who have posted in this topic to meet homosexual people, though (even if you view them with distaste -- I hope to meet convicted felons at some point, because I think the perspective would be broadening). Growing up in San Francisco has given me a rather different perspective on this issue: my first girlfriend was bisexual, and one of the most popular English teachers at my high school was gay. Homosexuality was a topic in our Health class, and we even had a day when experts on the gay issues came in to talk to our class. I am told this is rather unusual, as far as schools go. Anyway, diversifying one's perspective by knowing all sorts of people seems good to me. It might be interesting. In response to AM's points above: as I said at the start of this topic, it seems to me that anyone who believes that ALL of the Bible was divinely inspired would have to think of homosexuality as a sin. If even the apostles' words carry the authority of God, then the aforementioned lines out of Acts seem to indicate that sexual morality (concerning which that passage in Leviticus is a major source) is a pretty big deal. Oooh, tough questions from the other side of the issue! I look forward to it, Creator!  -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 08:57
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Getting back to the original post in this thread, I would point out that all Christianity is Bible-based. That being said, Christianity has evolved over time, as man's understanding of the world has improved. Sure, the author of whatever book in the OT thought that God smote Sodom. The author also thought that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around it. Times and perceptions change. I think it's been relatively well-established that the Bible itself, in Acts and Leviticus, does equate homosexual acts (as well as recreational sex) with badness. Whether Christians' modern perceptions dictate that they veer from the literal word of the Bible depends on the particular sect. It's obvious that almost all Christians ignore the dietary restrictions, and certainly many good Christians are willing to work on the sabbath. I personally feel that those who still discriminate against homosexuals have not evolved their spiritual thinking. As I mentioned before, it's an easy prohibition to hold onto because it's different and doesn't impact most of them directly. [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 08:59: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 11:09
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I'm not going to pass much comment on the past 25 odd posts, except that I found the first half of Creator's post a pretty appealing Utopia, but don't believe humans could maintain it for half an hour, that violence towards others is definitely worse than sex (my main concern with objectification of women is that it seems to legitimise women towards them,) that whilst I don't have a clue about primates, homosexuality in some animals (my dogs) is largely a way of expressing dominance and a substitute for heterosexual sex. Frequently in the living room when my grandparents come round, unfortunately enough. Oh, and that were244 really needs to learn to frame a coherent argument. Alec, the concept of homosexuality did exist rather earlier than you acknowledge. Henry VIII imposed the death sentence for sodomy. I don't believe there were many executions for this and since Shakespeare's lover was the Earl of Southampton, prosecution was still less likely. -------------------- "I particularly like the part where he claims not to know what self-aggrandisement means, then demands more wing-wongs up his virgin ass" Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 14:22
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Yes, were244, we will be judged in the end. Consider "love thy neighbor" again. There's no conditional, so unless you really despise yourself, you might want to go easier on the sanctimoniousness and try a bit harder with the friendliness. The United States are indeed a nice place, but they are far from perfect (and that's another rant). However, it is not the hand of God that causes either the good or the bad. It is the hand of imperfect men, some of whom try very hard to do the right thing, and some of whom do not. Furthermore, don't be so quick to hurl around terms like blasphemer. It is you who deny the laws set down in Leviticus. Andrew Mills is correct: dietary laws are stated in far more detail than rules governing sexuality. The Old Testament, which came more directly from the mouth of God, is more concerned with what you eat than who you sleep with. So yes, diet is at least on par with sexuality. Ironically, I suppose this would make it blasphemy firmly grounded in faith, or at least in literalism. Prophet: The OT (yes, that's what I know best) doesn't say much about pleasure one way or the other. It certainly thunders against sex out of wedlock, but if two happily married people enjoy themselves, God doesn't seem to disapprove. Not anywhere that I can find. DP: A minor thing, but you're confusing Paradise Lost with the Bible. Satan appears once in the Old Testament, and that's in the Book of Job. It's the serpent who convinces Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and only the serpent. When that was written down, there was no big, bad, evil Satan. ?Alorael, who went back and had another look at the Hebrew of that pesky Leviticus 18:22. Lo and behold, it really does say you shall not lie with a man as with a woman. First of all, it prescribes no specific punishment. That may only be one of the ritual uncleanliness laws. Also, who is to say that all homosexual activity is just "as with a woman"? In fact, if it's not penile-vaginal homosexual intercourse (which would be difficult to say the least), couldn't you interpret it as perfectly acceptable? If you're going to be literal, be literal. Don't claim to be literal when you are, in fact, interpreting. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 17:07
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Ah, yes. My familiarity is more with contemporary church teachings. But, anyways, the main thrust of my argument is that the Church's hostile attitude towards homosexuality is because of its purely recreational (And by recreational, I don't mean it doesn't express a real and heartfelt love, I just mean it isn't bringing new life into the world) nature. That said, I know a few gay people, and as far as I'm concerned all of them are good people, and have less to worry about at the End of the World than some straight people I know. Although, given the contemporary Church's teachings on love/forgiveness, my "damned" list doesn't include anyone I've actually met, just stock favorites like Hitler, Stalin, etc. EDIT: spelling and clarity [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 17:09: Message edited by: Prophet_of_Doom ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 18:28
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What about sex between a man and his pregnant wife? There's obviously no possibility of such an act resulting in the conception of a child, and yet I've never heard anybody claim that it's a sin. Also, if the objection is purely to non-procreative sex, then why is premarital heterosexual sex wrong (if, indeed, you think it is)? On a tangentially related note, what's your position on assisted reproductive techniques? If a woman's husband is infertile and she's inseminated with sperm from a donor in order to bear a child, is that a form of adultery? What about IVF, where the egg is fertilised outside the body and then implanted? Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 20:54
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Traditional Church teaching falsely misuses the Bible to judge the homosexual lifestyle. True Biblical theology begins not with Church tradition and dogma but with the biblical texts themselves. Biblical theology seeks to understand how the biblical authors expressed themselves in the Koine Greek of the time (not expanded by later modern greek meanings), in terms of their culture. Only with this understanding is it legitimate to define biblical sexual ethics of the NT and find implications for today. There is little said in the bible about homosexuality because it was no big deal! It occupied a prominent and respected position in most Greek and Roman cities at all levels of society and among a substantial part of the population. There are only 4 scriptures that are taken to say anything about homosexuality; the Leviticus laws, I Cor 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - and none address loving, consenting homosexual acts as we know them today. There are over 600 individual "laws" in the Levitical code, the breaking of anyone of which would make the sinner unclean and unacceptable to God. It is an abomination to eat pork, etc. The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was to show that man could never follow it. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, likewise have nothing to do with homosexuality. I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods. Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over women, but over younger males as well. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts. By the way, sorry for the length. -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Thursday, July 8 2004 23:11
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quote:[/b] quote: quote: quote:[/b] quote:I disagree with you. Murder is impolite. Two titanic understatements: I elaborate thus. quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: [ Thursday, July 08, 2004 23:35: Message edited by: Ultimate Weapon Custer ] -------------------- They want to have a war to keep their factories They want to have a war to keep us on our knees They want to have a war to stop us buying Japanese They want to have a war to stop industrial disease They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind They want to suck your energy, incarcerate your mind Give you Rule Brittania, gassy beer, page three Two weeks in Hispania and sunday striptease Meanwhile, the first Jesus says, "I'll cure it soon Abolish Monday mornings and Friday afternoons" The other one's out on hunger strike, he's dying by degrees How come Jesus gets industrial disease? Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, July 9 2004 04:21
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quote:It's not threatning. The law is for our own good. When He says we sould not murder, it's for our (we and society) own good, for example. Let's imagine. I tell you not to cross the railroad, as a train is coming. You cross it and in the same day you go to hospital with no legs and arms. Was it punishment? No. Did I threat you when I told you not to cross? No. You can take your own conclusions about what I tried to tell with this. Another thing: what kind of paradise would it be if there were murderers, liars, adulterers, etc in there? If God says no to homosexualism, He has a good reason for it. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, July 9 2004 04:36
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quote:I'm not judging, as I'm not sentencing them neither am saying they should be for that. If you know no difference between positive criticizing and judging/negative criticizing, then you should learn it. The apostles, when they wrote all those letters to the different churches... Were judging them? Can't be, as they also preached that only Jesus can judge us! quote:That's right, that's why we have to get that information from God's word and even then we have to consider that we might be wrong in our interpretation (although in this case there's no interpretation: it's clear in the bible that homosexuals won't be saved). And just because I say "this" doesn't mean I have authority. I would only need that if I wanted to judge, but that's not what I'm doing. quote:Even twisted to justify homosexualism. But we have to know the Bible as a whole. We can't say homosexualism is ok because of a speculation in some bible verses, when other verses say the opposite. BTW, Jesus used and quoted the Scriptures, so I hope you're not saying we shouldn't take in consideration God's word. quote:Wrongly used. And in that time, ignorance was so common, that if I told someone that the Bible said pigs can fly, they would believe it. The argument was that Jesus was killed by jews, so we should kill all of them. That's not what the Bible says or teaches. That's why we have to learn and study the Bible, so that we aren't easily fooled. quote:Calm down here. Take that "you" out, as I'm agains't religious laws enforced by civil laws. I'm for religious freedom. quote:I have some knowledge about that. Let's say that I've always beed scientific and christianity didn't change that. I want to know very well something before believing. I don't believe in what I'm told, just in what I learn, discover and proof myself. quote:Not by God. And that's what's being debated here. If you don't believe in God, then this topic has no interest to you. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, July 9 2004 04:37
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quote:First, pont me where in the Bible is that, so that I can read it in context. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |