Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual

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Author	Topic: Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Friday, July 9 2004 04:41 Profile Homepage #175 quote: We should love God, yes. Should we give Him mindless obedience? I think not. Think about how you love your parents and how much you listen or listened to them. There's more to love than following orders, and if God is a drill sergeant then perhaps it's time we threw ourselves on the devil's mercy. I totally agree with you. So? quote: If the apostles saw that others were doing wrong, they were judging. They may have been using God's rubric, or Christ's, but they were the ones playing judge. I don't agree. Think in a tribunal: the judge is the one that takes a decision, that absolves or condemns. If someone tells you that you shouldn't kill another person, he's not judging, just advising you so that you don't commit murder and ruin you life and, later, be judged for it. I guess my bad english isn't being enough to explain this. I've already tried in my posts above. Oh well... -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Friday, July 9 2004 04:56 Profile Homepage #176 quote: But does the entire 'looking at a woman with lust in your heart' point Jesus brought up mean nothing to you? That's why there are some laws that try to avoid that situation. If you're warned about adultery, probably you won't even concede yourself to get too intimate with a woman, so that that situation doesn't occur. Prevention is a better choice than remedy. Anyway, the point in that situation in particular is that there were (and are) people that did obey the law but in their hearts they wished they could have that woman. But that's a different situation than obeying the law and even in your heart you know you shouldn't and don't want it, even if you feel tempted. quote: If you wear cloth of two strands, you've committed an abomination against God by Leviticus. If you eat shellfish or pork, you've committed an abomination against God by Leviticus. If you refuse to marry your widowed sister-in-law and inseminate her with your child, you've committed an abomination against God by Leviticus. I could go on. It's well known that shellfish and pork are among the food that do worse to our health, so there's some logic behind the laws. The laws weren't made to test us, they were made to protect us. God is our creator, so He's the most suited to make our "instruction manual" Second, you have to analyse social and historical context. In those times, a widow/divorced woman would be condemned to poverty, social isolation and even prostitution. That's why there is that law, to protect the woman in that time. And remember that those laws you're talking about are laws in ordinances, not moral laws, like the TC. quote: The point Jesus labored to make was that sinlessness is impossible, and any sin is an irreparable taint. You're right but that's no the point. I'm not saying we have to be sinless, but we must repent our sins and try to avoid them. If "you" are gay and want to keep that way, then you're not repenting. Jesus told to the adulterous woman "go and don't do that anymore" (or something like that, I don't have the exact words in my mind and i'm a bad portuguese-english translator ). quote: Forcing them to live and behave as heterosexuals -- 'back into the closet' or such -- would be as basically wrong as forcing heterosexuals to live as gay men and women. No one is saying that gay men must marry women. I even wouldn't recommend it, poor women. Abstinence is the way. There's more to life than sex or being married. There other paths. The apostles even chosen to be single in their lives, living for their ministry. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
ef Guardian Member # 2476	written Friday, July 9 2004 05:23 Profile #177 If God is the All-Oneness, the consciousness or frequency that is all that is, and encompasses all, then God is above or beyond duality, meaning that God is an entity that contains the seeds of all opposites. Light and dark, good and evil are in synthesis within that entity. This, to me, is the state of perfection from which I sprang forth, and to which I will return eventually. When Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden, they did not know of good and evil, they were still very close to the state of perfection, very newly born. And therefore you could say that they lived in a state of ignorance. Not knowing imperfection, they naturally had no awareness of the perfection surrounding them. Until the snake (an ancient symbol of the force of life) came to help them, and introduced them to desire and attachment to desire. And the long downward spiral, life in the world of opposites, began. Once they have experienced all there is to experience and know themselves intimately, detachment will be the natural consequence. And seeing through the illusions of life, they'll start to return, start to remember who they essentially are. No longer ignorant, awake and aware. Maybe this is, how God learns about Him/Herself, some say so. A bit simplified, but in short what I believe in. Consequently I do believe in reincarnation, as did the early Christians, before the church put a ban on that. So you see, Overwhelming, there is no space for condemnation anywhere for me. And no need to be saved, as I was never lost. [ Friday, July 09, 2004 05:35: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 \| Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Djur Revolutions Babelicious Member # 3149	written Friday, July 9 2004 08:41 Profile Homepage #178 quote: Originally written by Overwhelming: If God says no to homosexualism, He has a good reason for it. Here's one. Unprotected anal intercourse has a higher risk of spreading sexually transmitted infections. Most sexual morality laws originated from fear of STIs. Today we have condoms, and many heterosexuals engage in anal intercourse as well. The point is moot, and the prohibition of homosexuality is as outdated as the prohibition of shellfish. More so, in fact, because shellfish is still pretty dangerous. -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 \| Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Friday, July 9 2004 08:47 Profile #179 quote: Originally written by Overwhelming: Let's imagine. I tell you not to cross the railroad, as a train is coming. You cross it and in the same day you go to hospital with no legs and arms. Was it punishment? No. Did I threat you when I told you not to cross? No. To use your example, if the God of the Old Testament told you a train was coming, and you crossed the railroad tracks anyway, but managed to dodge the train, you would still go to the hospital with no legs and arms, as a result of God's response... Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Friday, July 9 2004 09:58 Profile #180 quote: What about sex between a man and his pregnant wife? There's obviously no possibility of such an act resulting in the conception of a child, and yet I've never heard anybody claim that it's a sin. Well, it's a bit of a sin, right on a level with yawning in Church and forgetting a hail mary within the rosary. I think the Church's issue with premarital sex, as well as divorce, is that marriage sort of locks you into actually taking care of the result of your fun. quote: On a tangentially related note, what's your position on assisted reproductive techniques? If a woman's husband is infertile and she's inseminated with sperm from a donor in order to bear a child, is that a form of adultery? What about IVF, where the egg is fertilised outside the body and then implanted? All for it. quote: Being gay is part of genetics? The Bible says nothing about this. Science tends to say it is. When the Bible is silent and science is not, I believe science before I believe the church. Umm, actually, research on genetics and homosexuality suggests at most a slight predisposition. Homosexuality actually arises from some environmental factor (been a while since I read the article) while the fetus is developping, which makes sense, because homosexuality is obviously NOT a trait which should still be here, if it is genetic (it wouldn't get passed on). On an tangentially related note, the corpus callosum connecting the verbal/reasoning part of the brain has been found to be significantly larger in gay men, taking on a resemblance to a female brain. Which somewhat explains the stereotypes about gays being more sensitive and communicative than straight men (the fact that women have a larger corpus callosum explains the same in their case). Just showing that I know some science, as well as being a Catholic zealot. quote: Error: assumptions. We are assuming people are flawed, and God is 'perfection'. Neither of these are a given, nor even a logical conclusion, and both of them depend on one another. OOhhh. Man. I don't know what to say. I wouldn't say that one around Christians, that is a big heresy, and some people might be very offended by that statement.... Anyways, the entire premise of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is that God is perfect, with complete love for us. Oh, and we can safely assume that humanity, given its track record, is flawed. quote: The Lord is not an author of confusion. The Lord is also one of those concepts, like 4+ dimensional space and infinity, of which a limited thing like the human brain can have only a limited understanding. EDIT: I just want to say how incredibly civil this forum is, by comparison, and give everyone a huge thank you. Many people on both sides of this debate could learn a lot from this discussion. [ Friday, July 09, 2004 10:00: Message edited by: Prophet_of_Doom ] Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Friday, July 9 2004 10:34 Profile Homepage #181 Prophet_of_Doom, as a minor point of clarification, you don't come across as much of a Catholic zealot, at least in the way that you are for artificial fertilization or insemination- Our Man JP2 has taken a hard-line stance against that. For what, as I would like to declare, is a pointless reason- it still puts more baby bottoms in the pews, even if they aren't "natural" or "traditional". But I also don't mind adultery, sodomy, and not exiling menstruating women to a camp outside of the city until nature has run its sticky, crimson course. Is it just me [and Sboto, who pointed this out to me], or is the female body the only non-ambiguous thing in all of creation? -------------------- Rate My Scenarios! Streila Spies Unbalanced Accounts Inn of Blades Echoes Echoes: Assault Echoes: Black Horse Echoes: Pawns Bandits Echoes: Combat/Skirmish Two Strands Bandits II: Ballad of the Red Star Roses of Reckoning (BoE) Corporeus The Claim Roses of Reckoning (BoA) Nebulous Times Hence Emerald Mountain Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Xan Kreigor Shock Trooper Member # 3073	written Friday, July 9 2004 10:56 Profile Homepage #182 The heteros on this topic who are against homosexuality should try to imagine, I mean REALLY try to imagine this scenario. What if the Bible said that heterosexual activity was immoral, sinful, and to be despised and avoided, while homosexual relations were the norm the homosexuals were following the will of God. Now try saying to God: "I realize I am a sinner. My heterosexual life cannot be tolerated any more. I must break off my "wonderful" intimate relationships with my companion/spouse of the opposite sex, and make an attempt to live a normal life loving only those of my gender." Such a shift would be anything but a simple act of recognizing one's "sinful ways" yet that is what many expect homosexuals to do! And then they blame it on the Bible without knowing the truth of the greek scriptures and context. That is far more an abomination and travesty that condemning loving homosexual relationships. -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 \| Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, July 9 2004 14:03 Profile Homepage #183 "Judging" is any form of synthesizing data and observations in order to come to a conclusion. That's exactly what you're doing. It may not be negative in your eyes, though it comes across that way in mine, but it's still judgement. You can't have it both ways, Overwhelming. If you proclaim that the laws are for our own good and some of them are outdated, then you open the door for complete reinterpretation. If not, you are almost undoubtedly comitting many sins as we speak (or as I type, as the case may be). Furthermore, with no punishment listed for homosexuality, I still see no evidence for God despising it above all else. It could be a minor faux pas from His perspective. quote: Wrongly used. And in that time, ignorance was so common, that if I told someone that the Bible said pigs can fly, they would believe it. Guess what? The Bible is grossly misunderstood today as well. Ignorance abounds. And if you tell someone that Satan doesn't appear in the story of the Garden of Eden, people will say you're crazy. Nope, I don't think you can justify anything with "times are better now." I said God is not a drill sergeant. I do not believe He monitors us for thoughtcrime. In fact, I don't think He is offended by anything that doesn't harm someone else. Homosexuality does not harm people any more than heterosexuality. quote: And remember that those laws you're talking about are laws in ordinances, not moral laws, like the TC. When the laws are all literally listed in Leviticus, I think claiming some are more valid than others is putting words in the mouth of God. Again, you can't have it both ways. Either the laws are immutable or they are not. And the OT has no "morality" laws. Everything is a case of crime and punishment. Prophet, I'd like to see your sources. Google easily turns up an NIH citation to support my claims that homosexuality is gene-linked. And there are a number of reasons it could be passed on. Perhaps it is a recessive trait. Perhaps it is linked to other highly desireable traits. One way or another, it's in our genome. Nature, not nurture. ?Alorael, who hates to add to the huge posts with another huge post. Not enough to cut back on his maundering. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, July 9 2004 15:18 Profile Homepage #184 quote: Originally written by Your Unborn Child: Alec, the concept of homosexuality did exist rather earlier than you acknowledge. Henry VIII imposed the death sentence for sodomy. I think he meant the modern concept of homosexuality. People have been having same-sex intercourse for millenia, but the concept that an individual person could attracted exclusively to those of the same sex is a relatively new concept. quote: Originally written by Xan Kreigor: The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was to show that man could never follow it. This is the one that I take issue with, the one that made me start this topic. How exactly did the law cease to be in effect? It seemed to me from that verse I cited in Acts in the very first post of this thread that the laws laid down in Chapter 18 of Leviticus were an integral part of Christianity as practiced by the disciples. quote: Originally written by Overwhelming: Not by God. And that's what's being debated here. If you don't believe in God, then this topic has no interest to you. I don't believe in God, and I STARTED this topic, so I think you're a bit incorrect on this one. Also, with regard to the second post of your quadruple post, it's been mentioned a million times so far. David and Jonathan. I can't vouch for whether or not they were actually homosexual lovers, but that's the reference. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Friday, July 9 2004 17:36 Profile #185 Here is your source aloreal. I was wrong, it was not temperature, but rather stress in the first trimester of pregnancy. Read to your heart's content Of course, you have sources too, but, you'll notice I conceded that genes could create a predisposition, I just said that they weren't the end of the line. Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
The Creator BoE Posse Member # 112	written Friday, July 9 2004 17:40 Profile #186 Sorry guys, I'm going to have to bail out of this topic. I just don't have time or energy for this at the moment. Also, I've recently learned some things that, well, make these arguments over morality feel a bit irrelevant. And hey, there will always be more debates. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 \| Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, July 9 2004 22:57 Profile Homepage #187 I don't know what it is you've learned, but from the way you're talking it sounds pretty bad. I offer my sincerest condolences. Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Fingers Warrior Member # 4631	written Saturday, July 10 2004 10:10 Profile #188 quote: because homosexuality is obviously NOT a trait which should still be here, if it is genetic (it wouldn't get passed on Sickle cell anemia, Down syndrome, and cystic fibrosis are hardly good traits to have, and they're still with us... Edit: Yes, Andrea, thanks for reminding me, it's been a long time since I took biology. Scratch sickle cell from the list. [ Saturday, July 10, 2004 10:24: Message edited by: Dr. Doodoom ] -------------------- "'I saw the duckling hatch and disappear. Sadly I ask who may have taken it.'" Posts: 67 \| Registered: Monday, June 28 2004 07:00
Djur Revolutions Babelicious Member # 3149	written Saturday, July 10 2004 10:17 Profile Homepage #189 quote: Originally written by Dr. Doodoom: quote: because homosexuality is obviously NOT a trait which should still be here, if it is genetic (it wouldn't get passed on Sickle cell anemia confers resistance to malaria in heterozygosity. But your point is correct; 'undesirable' traits can last in perpetuity if they are recessive. In addition, I'm sure many gay men in history have reproduced; it's certainly possible to force yourself to have sex with someone you're not attracted to. Remember, reproduction has been for many people a duty throughout history. It's not until relatively recently that people could actually seek out sexual compatibility. [ Saturday, July 10, 2004 10:24: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 \| Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, July 10 2004 17:32 Profile Homepage #190 Repeat Thuryl's last post, except coming from me this time. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 04:33 Profile Homepage #191 quote: Originally written by ef: So you see, Overwhelming, there is no space for condemnation anywhere for me. And no need to be saved, as I was never lost. I'm only talking by the christian point of view. To reply your post I would have to talk about other issues first, which I won't. I'm not here to evangelize or something, lol. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 04:36 Profile Homepage #192 quote: Originally written by Andrea: Here's one. Is it the only one? Whn it's written that homosexuals won't enter heaven, it looks like definite to me. So there must be other reasons. Maybe because it's a perversion of God original design? Maybe because homosexuals can't procreat (hummm... Lesbians might one day, with cloning, if ever possible! ). And so on... -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 04:38 Profile Homepage #193 quote: Originally written by Imban: To use your example, if the God of the Old Testament told you a train was coming, and you crossed the railroad tracks anyway, but managed to dodge the train, you would still go to the hospital with no legs and arms, as a result of God's response... But doesn't happen, does it? Only if there's a big coincidence Anyway, it was a metaphore to explain a point of view. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 04:46 Profile Homepage #194 quote: Originally written by Xan Kreigor: The heteros on this topic who are against homosexuality should try to imagine, I mean REALLY try to imagine this scenario. What if the Bible said that heterosexual activity was immoral, sinful, and to be despised and avoided, while homosexual relations were the norm the homosexuals were following the will of God. Now try saying to God: "I realize I am a sinner. My heterosexual life cannot be tolerated any more. I must break off my "wonderful" intimate relationships with my companion/spouse of the opposite sex, and make an attempt to live a normal life loving only those of my gender." Such a shift would be anything but a simple act of recognizing one's "sinful ways" yet that is what many expect homosexuals to do! And then they blame it on the Bible without knowing the truth of the greek scriptures and context. That is far more an abomination and travesty that condemning loving homosexual relationships. Since the beggining of humanity that heterosexualism was established. And homosexualism condemned. It's nothing "recent" that changed the way we are. It's always been like that. What you could ask us to imagine is if homosexualism was the way to go, since the beggining. Then I would be homosexual and think it would be natural. Of course, God would have to change some rules: men could get pregnant, for example. But I know what you want me to imagine: let's say that God changed His mind and tells us that we heterosexualism is condemned. I wouldn't practice heterosexualism anymore. But I wouldn't run to a man's arms either. Abstinence. Love isn't only what exist in a couple. There's love for God, for friends, for nature, etc, etc. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 05:02 Profile Homepage #195 quote: "Judging" is any form of synthesizing data and observations in order to come to a conclusion. That's exactly what you're doing. It may not be negative in your eyes, though it comes across that way in mine, but it's still judgement. You just don't understand. But let me show you an example: you see someone murdering another one. That would be ok for you, as saying to that person that he commited a sin would be judging, right? quote: If you proclaim that the laws are for our own good and some of them are outdated, then you open the door for complete reinterpretation. It's not me who says which ones are outdated and which aren't. If you want, I can PM you an article about this subject. quote: Furthermore, with no punishment listed for homosexuality, I still see no evidence for God despising it above all else. There is "punishment". Homosexuals won't enter heaven. Homosexualism is an abomination to God eyes. quote: Guess what? The Bible is grossly misunderstood today as well. Ignorance abounds. You tell me! That's why I said we should read and learn by ourselves. Probably there's people here saying what the Bible says, without ever read it once (I don't even talk about studying! ) quote: And if you tell someone that Satan doesn't appear in the story of the Garden of Eden, people will say you're crazy. They would be right, in that case Ever heard about the serpent? quote: I do not believe He monitors us for thoughtcrime. As a fact, everything we do is recorded and will be shown to us in our judgement. But the good news is that Jesus is judged in our place, not ourselves! That's why you have to born again, acept Jesus as your saviour and have faith in Him. Someone that repeats sins without repent, hasn't faith in Jesus. That's th problem. It's not our deeds that are judged. It's a matter of faith in Christ. quote: Homosexuality does not harm people any more than heterosexuality. Well, I've alreay told above and in other posts why it's wrong. Let's just add that AIDS, for example, was spread out by gay communities, in the beggining. Now it's a problem for homo and heterosexuals as well. (And I'm not saying that homosexuals are the cause, just that they had a big influence). quote: Either the laws are immutable or they are not. And the OT has no "morality" laws. Everything is a case of crime and punishment. I'll pm you the article if you want. It's explains better this subject. quote: Google easily turns up an NIH citation to support my claims that homosexuality is gene-linked It talks about a possibility based in a small sample. There are other studies that say the opposite. Let's just say that science oday can't justify gene-homosexualism. So that's not an argument. But even if there were, read my other post somewhere in this topic. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Jame Warrior Member # 3694	written Sunday, July 11 2004 05:16 Profile #196 Never understood why so many people focus on these. Though I hear human nature doesn't change (and I believe it). Keep in mind that I'm one of those who others keep away from... -------------------- And that was exactly the point of itself. Takes advantage of the easily offended. Reports of my demise are extremely accurate except for the fact that they refer to my clone. Posts: 137 \| Registered: Monday, November 17 2003 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Sunday, July 11 2004 09:43 Profile Homepage #197 Actually, homosexuality has not been universally condemned throughout human history. Greco-Roman culture embraced it. Others saw nothing wrong with it. But they were pagans. And that brings up another point, doesn't it. What happens to people who never hear of Christianity and die without ever knowing that they have a savior to believe in, let alone believing him? Are they damned? If I see a murder, I would definitely do anything I could to stop it. And yes, I would condemn the murderer (though probably not with the word "sin."). But that's judgement, too. I would be judging that the murder was unjustified and not in self-defense. Judgement is any process that converts observation into understanding. We judge everything constantly. I keep hearing that homosexuals are barred from Heaven. Fair enough, but can you cite the passage that says this? My experience with the New Testament is nil, and it certainly isn't in the Old Testament. You have fallen victim to Paradise Lost Syndrome! The serpent is in the Garden of Eden, yes. The serpent is not Satan. Nowhere does it say, implicitly or explicitly, that the serpent is anything but an anthropomorphic snake. Satan made his first Genesis appearance in Paradise Lost, and he quickly became one of the most popular and enduring non-Biblical religious memes. Accusing gays of spreading AIDS is simply factually incorrect. It was originally termed GRIDS (gay-related immunodeficiency syndrome), and everyone who showed the symptoms was immediately labeled gay. Yes, many of the first victims were gay, but there were far more heterosexuals with the disease than were originally acknowledged. And now it's predominantly spread by heterosexuals. A tangent, but I'd like to think it's an important distinction. ?Alorael, who would like to see this article. PM away! Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Murder He Wrote Lifecrafter Member # 3320	written Sunday, July 11 2004 09:51 Profile #198 David and Jonathan are not the only example. However, I haven't read up enough on the subject lately to add the others without creating a bigger argument. The simple fact of the matter is, unless you were born a homosexual and understand why its such a hard and misunderstood sexuality, then you will never change your views on it. Not without a lot of evidence anyway. You can say all you want to me, but neither I, nor my boyfriend, will ever believe that God didn't bring us together. We are both Liberal Christians and that's all anyone need's to know. If I get the chance, I want to marry him in a civil union or whatever. And not JUST for the benefits, but because I want to cherish, love, and take care of him for the rest of my life. I find it very unfair that gays cannot provide for each other in the instance of an accident when one is in the hospital, or in the case of medical insurance. In the slightly changed words of Bette Davis in Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte: "Just because some fools wrote up these laws on an itty bitty piece of paper and added them to a religious book, doesn't make them so." I will never believe that the verses in the Old Testament that condemned gays were anything more than just a bunch of Cleanliness laws, which Jesus later came to say were perverted and unjust. The Jewish priests started taking these laws too far and too seriously, and Jesus saw this and tried to put a stop to it. Don't believe me? I have many taped documentaries as proof. Not to mention that the Cleanliness and Holiness laws were created specifically for the Jews. They were made to keep the Jews easily distinguished from the other cultures and peoples around them. That included the Gentiles. The Gentiles had different laws and beliefs. So to say that these laws apply to all people is going against what the Bible teaches. And to have laws for only one group of people is a travesty and injustice in itself. The prophets in the Old Testament taught to the Jews only, because they thought all other peoples and cultures were unclean. Jesus broke this barrier by being a Jew that taught to many many peoples, including Pagans and Gentiles. Paul went on to take God's word to the Gentiles as well. However, Paul and Jesus did not teach the same laws that the Jews made. Jesus brought new laws for the people to follow. That's why you might read that he recited scripture, but never a major law of the Jewish law system. Same with Paul. Jesus welcomed in many people around him, beggars, Prostitutes, tax collectors, centurions, and such. The Jewish priests shunned these people and refused to have anything to do with them. Their Cleanliness laws reflected this attitude. Also, the scientific knowledge of these people was next to nil. So, because they believed that men had limited sperm, anything that deviated from procreation was frowned upon. This included masturbation and homosexuality. They made their laws to reflect this. This can be learned when you study the culture of the time. Which is what scientists and archaeologists do. However, for the sake of length, I will not go into the interpretation of the original texts. Those texts were written at a time when the grammar and knowledge was different. So to literally translate something from them and use it today cannot be done without extensive study on the writings at the time and the culture. -------------------- (Looks around in the Study) Colonel Mustard: "Just checking." Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 \| Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00
Overwhelming Infiltrator Member # 4637	written Sunday, July 11 2004 12:13 Profile Homepage #199 quote: Actually, homosexuality has not been universally condemned throughout human history. I was talking in the christian point of view. There were other cultures that had other views, like Sodoma and Gomorra, for example. quote: What happens to people who never hear of Christianity and die without ever knowing that they have a savior to believe in, let alone believing him? Are they damned? It is written that God doesn't take into account the times of ignorance. But let me say that someone that is ignorant because never cared about the subject, never read the Scripture, even if he could do that if he wanted... That's not ignorance. Now, people in remote places on the planet, or that live in countries where religious persecution exist and that never had the oportunity to know God... What I'm saying is that you can't just close your eyes and consciently keep yourself ignorant about something. quote: but can you cite the passage that says this? Sexual acts outside the circle of a heterosexual marriage are forbidden (Lev. 20:7-21; Rom. 1:24-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-11). Jesus Christ reaffirmed the divine creation intent: "'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator "made them male and female," and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?" So they are no longer two, but one'" (Matt. 19:4-6, NIV). But here's some quotations, from the NT: quote: 1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, quote: Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. quote: 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; Need I quote more? quote: The serpent is not Satan. Nowhere does it say, implicitly or explicitly, that the serpent is anything but an anthropomorphic snake. quote: Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. I can show you more... quote: Accusing gays of spreading AIDS is simply factually incorrect. I just said they spread it in the beggining. They were not the cause but had a great influence. Nowadays it's just as you said. Unfortunately. -------------------- Visit the BoA Center! Blades of Avernum Center Your Avernum Design Haven Brand new and powerful forum! Check it out now! Posts: 483 \| Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00