Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual
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Author | Topic: Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 19:38
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The quotes posted already show what the Bible says about homosexuality. Someone said something about female homosexuality not being forbidden; I know for a fact that one of Paul's letters forbids it specifically. You've already mentioned Leviticus. So, we have it forbidden in both the OT and the NT. It's almost indefensible to say that the Bible does not prohibit homosexuality. This leaves us with a question: should these rules be followed today? I say the answer is yes. Jesus came to us because of our sins; his purpose in life was to die. But he was also a teacher, and it seems to me that he told us that God was loosening up. RC, do you honestly believe that God has not changed ever? If that is the case, why do the things described in the Old Testament not happen today? It seems to me that he has been backing off, giving us more freedom. This doesn't mean we can do whatever we want, or that we should simply discard the Old Testament laws; Jesus came to modify and moderate them, not to blow them off. We have been given what we need to carry out God's will, so now it's up to us to do so. Jesus also said that even us sinners could go to Heaven, because God is forgiving. From this we can imply that gouging out one's eye for looking lustfully at a woman is metaphoric, not literal, and that we're all allowed a certain degree of sifulness. But how much, and what kind of sin, exactly? To say that all sin is equal is wrong; the Bible does not say this at all, regardless of how many opponents and fundamental supporters of Christianity would have it. Under our laws today, both murder and thievery are illegal, but murder is worse. Christian laws are the same way - God would rather have you steal that loaf of bread and run off with it than have you knife the baker. So where does homosexuality fit in in all this? That, like it or not, is up almost entirely to interpretation. Maybe it's better than thievery, maybe it's worse. Maybe you should hit your father before engaging in intercourse with a partner of the same sex; maybe not. Is it an automatic, one-way ticket to Hell? Certainly not; would Jesus have it that way? But will it lead you in that general direction? Well... if not, why would the Bible forbid it? So, to me, homosexuality is wrong. How wrong, exactly, is a matter of personal opinion. I'm still unsure as to where I stand in this; I'm not even sure I believe in the Bible. Paul does not appear to be all that great of a guy to me, and if God really used him as a mouthpiece, he's got strange tastes. But if you believe in Christianity and follow the Bible, I don't see how you can support homosexuality or even accept it. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
Babelicious
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:02
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The Bible does ban homosexuality. It was written, by and large, by archaic small-minded men in a time when it was still in vogue to keep multiple wives and slaves, usually in tandem. Thus, there's no reason any sane person should pay any more heed to it than to the Koran or Greek mythology. Alexander: How about Exodus, which mostly involves the Israelites killing everyone they lay their hands on? How about the entire concept of a "chosen race" -- remember, the Hebrews came up with that before Hitler ever did. How about smiting Onan for pulling out? How about the THOUSANDS of people killed simply for not believing in YHWH? Jehu! Jehu. Sodom and Gomorrah, even. "The LORD your God is a jealous god." The Bible consistently paints a picture of a small-minded, patriarchal religion lorded over by small-minded patriarchs with a bloodlust. Nearly all Abrahamic religions have inherited this legacy. [ Sunday, June 27, 2004 20:08: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:06
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Sir David, have you ever discussed religion with a Catholic priest? For quite a while now I've thought that your views sound a lot like those of most of the Catholics I know. The Catholic Church, of course, has written a lot about theology; picking up a catechism some time may help you to refine your own views. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:19
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Sir David, where specifically in Paul's letters do you find this? Just curious. The reason that I picked out that line from Leviticus was that it was so explicit. I read at some other point a web site with an explanation of the supposed four anti-homosexual verses in the Bible (or something like that) that was grounded in what the verses actually meant in Hebrew and Greek. What was interesting about this was that it explained away NT anti-homosexuality as being anti-pederasty, rather than anti-homosexuality -- that practice being, obviously, still considered immoral today. This one verse from Leviticus was a lot harder to explain away, though, and in this one, I think they failed. (EDIT: "They" being the authors of the web site: they failed to explain this as not anti-homosexuality.) But anyway, it's hard for me to argue with Djur's point of view (or Dolney's, for that matter). [ Sunday, June 27, 2004 20:27: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
Agent
Member # 1104
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:21
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quote:What kind of a God would be if He could change? For all we know, He could be loving us at one moment and then destroy the world with no regret the next, not worrying about sin Himself! And also, I believe the Bible and here is what it says: quote: quote: quote:God does not change, humans on the other hand do. It seems to me that WE have been backing off, giving ourselves more freedom. quote: quote:It says here "a sin." What sin is it? It is just sin in general, meaning that it could be lying, murder, thievery, or anything. Now, I agree that there are diferrent punishments for sins (like for murder, an electric chair. For thievery, time in jail. Etc.) but sin is sin and is equal in God's eyes. Well, it says here that he will die for any sin...that doesn't sound like the punishments are any diferrent... This is a diferrent type of death, a spiritual one... quote:That eternal fire is the spiritual death that the verse is talking about. If you've sinned and haven't asked forgiveness for it because you don't care enough to do so, by the rules of Christianity, you have a one way ticket to eternity in Hell. -------------------- Chance Forums Posts: 1307 | Registered: Tuesday, May 7 2002 07:00 |
Babelicious
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:47
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RC: All of which you have said is entirely reasonable in your theology and with your Bible. Which is why both are reprehensible and repugnant. Fundamentalist Christianity is a plague on the earth and a thorn in the side of human progress. Its only effect on humanity is more hate and more destruction. Mind you, Catholicism is not much better, nor is Islam, nor is even Judaism. All are tainted by their history of terrible slaughter and oppression. However, at least their adherents are making some efforts to shed the folly of the past. Fundamentalists, on the other hand, would turn back the clock to an age where man lived by brute force and butchery. -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 20:47
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quote:How would you explain Noah's Ark without God having changed his mind about whether or not to wipe everything out? Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 21:02
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I have a question. I know that if we're talking about religion this may a difficult thing, but bear with me for a sec. Excluding the holy books, as well as God, please answer me this: Why, exactly is homosexuality bad? Besides the practical aspect that if we all had sex with members of our own genre the species would cease to exist rather fast, why is it wrong? -------------------- "I like traffic lights, but not when they are red." [Abridged] Monty Python Song. Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
Shake Before Using
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 21:09
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It's probably considered bad because many heterosexuals find the idea of having sexual intercourse with another person of the same gender as them repugnant or disgusting. I'd not want to participate in homosexual intercourse, but there are plenty of other things that spawn a more "gah no" reaction... [ Sunday, June 27, 2004 21:11: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 21:20
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That answer makes some sense, but given what the OT does condone, I find it hard to believe it came from men with weak stomachs. -------------------- It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 22:18
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I might as well put my two cents in here, though I wanted to avoid this topic. But it would be a nice way to bring on my 800th post. Homosexuality is repulsive to many people simply because they think it is immoral. And why do they think it is immoral? Because the Bible tells them so. What dumb reasoning. However, here is the truth found by scientists for why the Bible says what it does. At the time that many of the books of the Bible were written, there was a general belief circulating. People believed that they lived on in life as long as they had many children to continue their bloodline. There was also the belief that men had a limited amount of sperm in their bodies, so any deviation from procreation was frowned upon. That included both masturbation and gay sex, as in their eyes both were a waste of sperm. If you want, you can include bestiality in that. But the thing is, the beliefs and the laws of the culture were shaped to reflect those two ideas. Furthermore, women were not included as long as they bore children. So lesbian sex was not frowned upon because females did not carry the sperm. The Leviticus laws are a set of Purification and Holiness codes, most of which are not applicable to today. And yet, certain ones like the gay sex one are still accepted today. And then there are the ideas that Paul referred to. Unfortunately, these were misinterpreted and their meaning was lost until scientists and historians researched the original texts. Turns out that what Paul was referring to was not gay sex in general, but gay sex used in pagan temple worship and gay prostitution. This can be discovered when reading the verses around the indicated ones. They show each time in Paul's letters that when he was talking about gay sex, idolatry and pagan ritual worship ideas could be found one verse or two just before that, making a direct connection between them. Thereby proving that gay sex in general was not the intent of Paul. Another thing that many people don't know is that gay marriages were legal in Europe up until the Church changed the Bible in the 12th and 13th centuries. Historical research has discovered gay marriages between male saints, the public, and even among early monarchs and aristocracy. The Church decided that they didn't like the ill use of their so-called perfect Bible and so they outlawed gay marriages. It's sad that what they did so long ago still affects people like me today. I have a boyfriend and we are very very deeply in love. What's more, we are both liberal Christians and cannot make a holy commitment to each other because of the influence that one single book had on the world. I prefer to look upon homosexuality in the way that Native Americans do. They see it as a gift from God that should be cherished and embraced by all people because they see it as perfectly natural. They even consider homosexuality to be a unique challenge for those that it is bestowed upon. -------------------- (Looks around in the Study) Colonel Mustard: "Just checking." Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
Shake Before Using
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 22:24
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People like you are the reason people like Chick villify scientists. -_-; Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 22:34
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Well, some people, no matter how much scientific proof you throw at them or show them, will never be open to any other ideas. That's what happens when you are brainwashed by with religious ideas from a young age. They almost had me believing that I am evil and a piece of S.H.I.T. because I am gay. But I found other literature that opened my eyes and mind to the truth about what the Church has done throughout the millennia. If you knew what I knew, you would despise the Conservative Christian Church with every fiber of your being like I do. -------------------- (Looks around in the Study) Colonel Mustard: "Just checking." Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 22:35
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So, uh, one side's brainwashing is better than the other why? EDIT : Decided to put a little more thought into my post, since I'm going to sleep. What, exactly, makes some guy's interpretation of the Bible "scientific proof", invalidating the Church's official position, anyway? I'd think it would just be his educated opinion - after all, you'd think that at some point, other Biblical scholars would have expressed differing interpretations. [ Sunday, June 27, 2004 22:42: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
Warrior
Member # 3480
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written Sunday, June 27 2004 23:33
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Sorry to but in here but this has been nagging tat me for a while, Why the hell do the christians think you will be sent to hell and tortured by the devil? The devil is surposed to be evil and stuff so why would he tortur evil people for eternity? Come on, if the next Hitler who commits genocide and kills millions of Christians goes to hell, why would the devil torture him? This guys just done all the devils work for him, bah I will never understand the ramblings of schizophenics -------------------- What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. Posts: 169 | Registered: Wednesday, September 24 2003 07:00 |
One Thousand Slimy Things
Member # 66
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written Monday, June 28 2004 00:12
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Sabotage! -------------------- KhothMk2: I'll get you some day ^_^ Posts: 995 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, June 28 2004 00:13
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Well, bits of the OT, especially Job, sort of hint at a worldview in which God and Satan are seen as being in league with each other, in a sense. Mainstream Christian theology does generally recognise Satan as being ultimately subservient to God's will. Now when you start asking why God would want/allow sinners to be tortured, things really get complicated. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, June 28 2004 04:07
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Then, for instance, one could take a similar worldview of satan and god and NOT assume that they are in cahoots. Poor, poor satan! Either he hasn't read his life-biography-in-advance, or he is on a constant road to his own destruction that God is basically forcing on him. The book of revelations points out everything that Satan will do until he is finally obliterated and sent to hell, and when taken as such, it's almost cruel! God gives satan three little dances across the world before wiping him out, but in all three, Satan still isn't allowed to cause as much destruction as Yahweh himself. It's quite ironic to be talking about paradoxes, morality and institutions while referencing a worldview reflecting Vonnegut's. -------------------- Rate My Scenarios! Streila Spies Unbalanced Accounts Inn of Blades Echoes Echoes: Assault Echoes: Black Horse Echoes: Pawns Bandits Echoes: Combat/Skirmish Two Strands Bandits II: Ballad of the Red Star Roses of Reckoning (BoE) Corporeus The Claim Roses of Reckoning (BoA) Nebulous Times Hence Emerald Mountain Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 618
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written Monday, June 28 2004 04:58
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The chances of any of it being actually correct and real is so small that I turned anti-religious. In fact I'm so anti-religion I have my own religion based on really silly philosophical theories like In Potenia and others. some I made up myself, some I just downright yoink. It's fun. EDIT: Wooh! 500! I'm Erudite! Eat my socks! [ Monday, June 28, 2004 05:00: Message edited by: FatBatMonkey ] -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
Apprentice
Member # 4580
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written Monday, June 28 2004 07:21
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I have a question for y'all you seem so tolerant of every one, but Christians. Why is that? Do you really think we are that bad? quote:I sould have gona to bed and not posted. My bible does have that verse in it. [ Monday, June 28, 2004 07:28: Message edited by: Razor ] Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, June 19 2004 07:00 |
Babelicious
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written Monday, June 28 2004 07:33
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I have no problem with Christians. I have a problem with their religion which is, as I have stated, generally an insidious and terrible force. This is true of the other Abrahamic religions as well. Most other religions are as bad, truthfully. The last Christian worth listening to was Jesus. The apostles, Paul, etc. were all venal little men. -------------------- Beatoff Valley: A story told out of order. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
Shock Trooper
Member # 4154
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written Monday, June 28 2004 07:38
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Remember that, like I said, nobody should judge Christianity by its adherents or churches. If you judged Christianity by me you'd think that it was a stupid and horrible religion, mostly because I'm not strong-willed enough to resist sinning and because I'm not literate enough to defend against most of the points everyone's making. But try and find a clear contradiction in the Bible, and you'd be up for a challenge. Just don't expect me to be able to prove Christianity, cause I'm just a dumb human. quote:People choose Christianity because they find it to be true, not because they like it. There are plenty of other easier religions out there. The fact that they are easier does not make them correct. Also, I want to point out that the whole code about eating certain animals was probably there to keep everyone safe -- they had no knowledge of germs and whatnot back in the day. Basically, I'm somewhat untrusting of the Old Testament, because, well, it's old. Should you read the Gospels you'd find what Christianity's all about, though it may not cover everything about Christianity. -------------------- You're a moron if you think I'm not. Posts: 213 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
Apprentice
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written Monday, June 28 2004 08:11
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quote:That is how I feel about Gays. They are great people. (I know because I am related to a gay couple) I just do not agree with their beliefs. A better topic IMHO would have been what do you think of Gays? Because it is obvious most religions hate it. And because it just makes it easy to use religion as an easy out. i.e. I don't like Gays because, Uhh.... Well my religion says it's bad. Lets think for our self's, hmm? Note: I'm not saying any of y'all used religion as an easy out. I'm just saying some people do. Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, June 19 2004 07:00 |
Shock Trooper
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written Monday, June 28 2004 08:46
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quote:A few verses from the Bible: quote:Sodom and Gomorrah - the issue here was simply that they were overly wicked and did not want to repent. That, and ALL the men in this town except for Lot and the two visitors were homosexuals. quote:God will wait and give people chances, but if they still do not listen, He will be jealous. It think most of you heard about Jonah and the whale...well, what Jonah was sent to do was to head over to Ninevah and get the people there to repent before they were turned to dust. And they did repent, and God spared them. But then again, something like that happened a second time where God gave them yet another chance, they did not listen and they were flooded out. Noah and the Ark - same issue...people were wicked and only Noah was the only righteous person there. Guess what? It is going to happen again, and God promissed He would wipe out the earth...not by flood but by fire. quote:Hitler's "chosen race" and God's were not the same. God chose Abraham simply because He knew that Abraham would follow Him and obey His commands. Now, does that mean that only Israelites can be the chosen race? Of course not, since Gentiles are also included...those are Christians. quote:So unlike Hitlers race of people which is based on physical characteristics, God's race is based on their heart. quote:I wonder how many Christians rob banks nowadays...or rape people...or abort babies...or kill people. It seems to me that we are on the peaceful side of things at the moment. quote:Evolution is right to some people. And why do they think it's right? Because scientists say so. What dumb reasoning. quote:Devil torturing people in Hell!? What book have you been reading? I think I have to clear up some misconceptions here...more verses quote:Satan won't have the time to torment others, he's gonna be burning himself. -------------------- ♫ The truth is screaming BIG ♫ ♫ A light so bright ♫ ♫ Whether day or night ♫ ♫ It can't be hid ♫ § realitycorp@gmail.com § ►► Chance is back online! ◄◄ Posts: 245 | Registered: Tuesday, February 17 2004 08:00 |
Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Monday, June 28 2004 08:50
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quote:Sorry, but that statement annoys me. Homosexuality is not a system of beliefs. People do not choose to be gay. Nor can you generalize and say that they are great people or not. They vary just like any other people; straight, bi, whatever. You can find any number of gay people with one set of beliefs, and as many or more with a different set. There are tolerant homosexuals, and fundamentalist christian homosexuals. I'm not sure if I expressed what I wanted to say eloquently enough, but I hope you can get the gist of it. -------------------- who? Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |