Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual

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AuthorTopic: Religion, Homosexuality, the Usual
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
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The quotes posted already show what the Bible says about homosexuality. Someone said something about female homosexuality not being forbidden; I know for a fact that one of Paul's letters forbids it specifically. You've already mentioned Leviticus. So, we have it forbidden in both the OT and the NT. It's almost indefensible to say that the Bible does not prohibit homosexuality.

This leaves us with a question: should these rules be followed today? I say the answer is yes. Jesus came to us because of our sins; his purpose in life was to die. But he was also a teacher, and it seems to me that he told us that God was loosening up. RC, do you honestly believe that God has not changed ever? If that is the case, why do the things described in the Old Testament not happen today? It seems to me that he has been backing off, giving us more freedom. This doesn't mean we can do whatever we want, or that we should simply discard the Old Testament laws; Jesus came to modify and moderate them, not to blow them off. We have been given what we need to carry out God's will, so now it's up to us to do so. Jesus also said that even us sinners could go to Heaven, because God is forgiving. From this we can imply that gouging out one's eye for looking lustfully at a woman is metaphoric, not literal, and that we're all allowed a certain degree of sifulness.

But how much, and what kind of sin, exactly? To say that all sin is equal is wrong; the Bible does not say this at all, regardless of how many opponents and fundamental supporters of Christianity would have it. Under our laws today, both murder and thievery are illegal, but murder is worse. Christian laws are the same way - God would rather have you steal that loaf of bread and run off with it than have you knife the baker.

So where does homosexuality fit in in all this? That, like it or not, is up almost entirely to interpretation. Maybe it's better than thievery, maybe it's worse. Maybe you should hit your father before engaging in intercourse with a partner of the same sex; maybe not. Is it an automatic, one-way ticket to Hell? Certainly not; would Jesus have it that way? But will it lead you in that general direction? Well... if not, why would the Bible forbid it? So, to me, homosexuality is wrong. How wrong, exactly, is a matter of personal opinion. I'm still unsure as to where I stand in this; I'm not even sure I believe in the Bible. Paul does not appear to be all that great of a guy to me, and if God really used him as a mouthpiece, he's got strange tastes. But if you believe in Christianity and follow the Bible, I don't see how you can support homosexuality or even accept it.

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Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
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The Bible does ban homosexuality. It was written, by and large, by archaic small-minded men in a time when it was still in vogue to keep multiple wives and slaves, usually in tandem. Thus, there's no reason any sane person should pay any more heed to it than to the Koran or Greek mythology.

Alexander: How about Exodus, which mostly involves the Israelites killing everyone they lay their hands on? How about the entire concept of a "chosen race" -- remember, the Hebrews came up with that before Hitler ever did. How about smiting Onan for pulling out? How about the THOUSANDS of people killed simply for not believing in YHWH? Jehu! Jehu.

Sodom and Gomorrah, even. "The LORD your God is a jealous god." The Bible consistently paints a picture of a small-minded, patriarchal religion lorded over by small-minded patriarchs with a bloodlust. Nearly all Abrahamic religions have inherited this legacy.

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 20:08: Message edited by: Andrea ]

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
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Sir David, have you ever discussed religion with a Catholic priest? For quite a while now I've thought that your views sound a lot like those of most of the Catholics I know. The Catholic Church, of course, has written a lot about theology; picking up a catechism some time may help you to refine your own views.
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
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Sir David, where specifically in Paul's letters do you find this? Just curious.

The reason that I picked out that line from Leviticus was that it was so explicit. I read at some other point a web site with an explanation of the supposed four anti-homosexual verses in the Bible (or something like that) that was grounded in what the verses actually meant in Hebrew and Greek. What was interesting about this was that it explained away NT anti-homosexuality as being anti-pederasty, rather than anti-homosexuality -- that practice being, obviously, still considered immoral today. This one verse from Leviticus was a lot harder to explain away, though, and in this one, I think they failed. (EDIT: "They" being the authors of the web site: they failed to explain this as not anti-homosexuality.)

But anyway, it's hard for me to argue with Djur's point of view (or Dolney's, for that matter).

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 20:27: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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quote:
But he was also a teacher, and it seems to me that he told us that God was loosening up. RC, do you honestly believe that God has not changed ever?
What kind of a God would be if He could change? For all we know, He could be loving us at one moment and then destroy the world with no regret the next, not worrying about sin Himself! And also, I believe the Bible and here is what it says:

quote:
Malachi 3
6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
quote:
Numbers 23
19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

quote:
It seems to me that he has been backing off, giving us more freedom.
God does not change, humans on the other hand do. It seems to me that WE have been backing off, giving ourselves more freedom.

quote:
But how much, and what kind of sin, exactly? To say that all sin is equal is wrong; the Bible does not say this at all, regardless of how many opponents and fundamental supporters of Christianity would have it.
quote:
Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

It says here "a sin." What sin is it? It is just sin in general, meaning that it could be lying, murder, thievery, or anything. Now, I agree that there are diferrent punishments for sins (like for murder, an electric chair. For thievery, time in jail. Etc.) but sin is sin and is equal in God's eyes. Well, it says here that he will die for any sin...that doesn't sound like the punishments are any diferrent...

This is a diferrent type of death, a spiritual one...

quote:
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
That eternal fire is the spiritual death that the verse is talking about. If you've sinned and haven't asked forgiveness for it because you don't care enough to do so, by the rules of Christianity, you have a one way ticket to eternity in Hell.

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Posts: 1307 | Registered: Tuesday, May 7 2002 07:00
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RC: All of which you have said is entirely reasonable in your theology and with your Bible. Which is why both are reprehensible and repugnant. Fundamentalist Christianity is a plague on the earth and a thorn in the side of human progress. Its only effect on humanity is more hate and more destruction.

Mind you, Catholicism is not much better, nor is Islam, nor is even Judaism. All are tainted by their history of terrible slaughter and oppression. However, at least their adherents are making some efforts to shed the folly of the past. Fundamentalists, on the other hand, would turn back the clock to an age where man lived by brute force and butchery.

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Shake Before Using
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quote:
Originally written by RC:

...He could be loving us at one moment and then destroy the world with no regret the next...
How would you explain Noah's Ark without God having changed his mind about whether or not to wipe everything out?
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile #32
I have a question.

I know that if we're talking about religion this may a difficult thing, but bear with me for a sec.

Excluding the holy books, as well as God, please answer me this:

Why, exactly is homosexuality bad?

Besides the practical aspect that if we all had sex with members of our own genre the species would cease to exist rather fast, why is it wrong?

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Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00
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It's probably considered bad because many heterosexuals find the idea of having sexual intercourse with another person of the same gender as them repugnant or disgusting.

I'd not want to participate in homosexual intercourse, but there are plenty of other things that spawn a more "gah no" reaction...

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 21:11: Message edited by: Imban ]
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
For Carnage, Apply Within
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That answer makes some sense, but given what the OT does condone, I find it hard to believe it came from men with weak stomachs.

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Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00
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I might as well put my two cents in here, though I wanted to avoid this topic. But it would be a nice way to bring on my 800th post.

Homosexuality is repulsive to many people simply because they think it is immoral. And why do they think it is immoral? Because the Bible tells them so. What dumb reasoning.

However, here is the truth found by scientists for why the Bible says what it does. At the time that many of the books of the Bible were written, there was a general belief circulating. People believed that they lived on in life as long as they had many children to continue their bloodline. There was also the belief that men had a limited amount of sperm in their bodies, so any deviation from procreation was frowned upon. That included both masturbation and gay sex, as in their eyes both were a waste of sperm. If you want, you can include bestiality in that.

But the thing is, the beliefs and the laws of the culture were shaped to reflect those two ideas. Furthermore, women were not included as long as they bore children. So lesbian sex was not frowned upon because females did not carry the sperm.

The Leviticus laws are a set of Purification and Holiness codes, most of which are not applicable to today. And yet, certain ones like the gay sex one are still accepted today. And then there are the ideas that Paul referred to. Unfortunately, these were misinterpreted and their meaning was lost until scientists and historians researched the original texts. Turns out that what Paul was referring to was not gay sex in general, but gay sex used in pagan temple worship and gay prostitution. This can be discovered when reading the verses around the indicated ones. They show each time in Paul's letters that when he was talking about gay sex, idolatry and pagan ritual worship ideas could be found one verse or two just before that, making a direct connection between them. Thereby proving that gay sex in general was not the intent of Paul.

Another thing that many people don't know is that gay marriages were legal in Europe up until the Church changed the Bible in the 12th and 13th centuries. Historical research has discovered gay marriages between male saints, the public, and even among early monarchs and aristocracy. The Church decided that they didn't like the ill use of their so-called perfect Bible and so they outlawed gay marriages.

It's sad that what they did so long ago still affects people like me today. I have a boyfriend and we are very very deeply in love. What's more, we are both liberal Christians and cannot make a holy commitment to each other because of the influence that one single book had on the world.

I prefer to look upon homosexuality in the way that Native Americans do. They see it as a gift from God that should be cherished and embraced by all people because they see it as perfectly natural. They even consider homosexuality to be a unique challenge for those that it is bestowed upon.

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Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00
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People like you are the reason people like Chick villify scientists. -_-;
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Well, some people, no matter how much scientific proof you throw at them or show them, will never be open to any other ideas. That's what happens when you are brainwashed by with religious ideas from a young age. They almost had me believing that I am evil and a piece of S.H.I.T. because I am gay. But I found other literature that opened my eyes and mind to the truth about what the Church has done throughout the millennia. If you knew what I knew, you would despise the Conservative Christian Church with every fiber of your being like I do.

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Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two corpses. Everything's fine."

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Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00
Shake Before Using
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So, uh, one side's brainwashing is better than the other why?

EDIT : Decided to put a little more thought into my post, since I'm going to sleep.

What, exactly, makes some guy's interpretation of the Bible "scientific proof", invalidating the Church's official position, anyway? I'd think it would just be his educated opinion - after all, you'd think that at some point, other Biblical scholars would have expressed differing interpretations.

[ Sunday, June 27, 2004 22:42: Message edited by: Imban ]
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Warrior
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Sorry to but in here but this has been nagging tat me for a while, Why the hell do the christians think you will be sent to hell and tortured by the devil? The devil is surposed to be evil and stuff so why would he tortur evil people for eternity? Come on, if the next Hitler who commits genocide and kills millions of Christians goes to hell, why would the devil torture him? This guys just done all the devils work for him, bah I will never understand the ramblings of schizophenics

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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
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Posts: 995 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Well, bits of the OT, especially Job, sort of hint at a worldview in which God and Satan are seen as being in league with each other, in a sense. Mainstream Christian theology does generally recognise Satan as being ultimately subservient to God's will. Now when you start asking why God would want/allow sinners to be tortured, things really get complicated.
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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Then, for instance, one could take a similar worldview of satan and god and NOT assume that they are in cahoots. Poor, poor satan! Either he hasn't read his life-biography-in-advance, or he is on a constant road to his own destruction that God is basically forcing on him. The book of revelations points out everything that Satan will do until he is finally obliterated and sent to hell, and when taken as such, it's almost cruel! God gives satan three little dances across the world before wiping him out, but in all three, Satan still isn't allowed to cause as much destruction as Yahweh himself.

It's quite ironic to be talking about paradoxes, morality and institutions while referencing a worldview reflecting Vonnegut's.

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The chances of any of it being actually correct and real is so small that I turned anti-religious.

In fact I'm so anti-religion I have my own religion based on really silly philosophical theories like In Potenia and others. some I made up myself, some I just downright yoink. It's fun. IMAGE(tongue01.gif)

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Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
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I have a question for y'all you seem so tolerant of every one, but Christians. Why is that? Do you really think we are that bad?

quote:
Originally written by Sir Alexander:

Please read things more carefully, Kel said it was in Leviticus not Acts.
I sould have gona to bed and not posted. IMAGE(wink0001.gif) My bible does have that verse in it.

[ Monday, June 28, 2004 07:28: Message edited by: Razor ]
Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, June 19 2004 07:00
Babelicious
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I have no problem with Christians. I have a problem with their religion which is, as I have stated, generally an insidious and terrible force. This is true of the other Abrahamic religions as well. Most other religions are as bad, truthfully.

The last Christian worth listening to was Jesus. The apostles, Paul, etc. were all venal little men.

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
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Member # 4154
Profile #46
Remember that, like I said, nobody should judge Christianity by its adherents or churches. If you judged Christianity by me you'd think that it was a stupid and horrible religion, mostly because I'm not strong-willed enough to resist sinning and because I'm not literate enough to defend against most of the points everyone's making. But try and find a clear contradiction in the Bible, and you'd be up for a challenge. Just don't expect me to be able to prove Christianity, cause I'm just a dumb human.

quote:
Originally written by FZ:

[QUOTE]If people truly believe that Christianity is so inherently intolerant, that it forces them to take on hateful/irrational points of view, then why on earth do they want to be christians in the first place? Plenty of other gods out there.
People choose Christianity because they find it to be true, not because they like it. There are plenty of other easier religions out there. The fact that they are easier does not make them correct.

Also, I want to point out that the whole code about eating certain animals was probably there to keep everyone safe -- they had no knowledge of germs and whatnot back in the day. Basically, I'm somewhat untrusting of the Old Testament, because, well, it's old. Should you read the Gospels you'd find what Christianity's all about, though it may not cover everything about Christianity.

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Posts: 213 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Andrea:

I have no problem with Christians. I have a problem with their religion which is, as I have stated, generally an insidious and terrible force. This is true of the other Abrahamic religions as well. Most other religions are as bad, truthfully.
That is how I feel about Gays. They are great people. (I know because I am related to a gay couple) I just do not agree with their beliefs.

A better topic IMHO would have been what do you think of Gays? Because it is obvious most religions hate it. And because it just makes it easy to use religion as an easy out. i.e. I don't like Gays because, Uhh.... Well my religion says it's bad. Lets think for our self's, hmm?

Note: I'm not saying any of y'all used religion as an easy out. I'm just saying some people do.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, June 19 2004 07:00
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quote:
How about Exodus, which mostly involves the Israelites killing everyone they lay their hands on?

How about the THOUSANDS of people killed simply for not believing in YHWH?

How would you explain Noah's Ark without God having changed his mind about whether or not to wipe everything out?
A few verses from the Bible:

quote:
Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Deuteronomy 6:15
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land

Nahum 1:2
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." -- 2 Peter 3:9
Sodom and Gomorrah - the issue here was simply that they were overly wicked and did not want to repent. That, and ALL the men in this town except for Lot and the two visitors were homosexuals.

quote:
Genesis 19

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
9 "Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here-sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"
18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your servant has found favor in your eyes, and you have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it-it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."
21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD . 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
God will wait and give people chances, but if they still do not listen, He will be jealous. It think most of you heard about Jonah and the whale...well, what Jonah was sent to do was to head over to Ninevah and get the people there to repent before they were turned to dust. And they did repent, and God spared them. But then again, something like that happened a second time where God gave them yet another chance, they did not listen and they were flooded out. Noah and the Ark - same issue...people were wicked and only Noah was the only righteous person there. Guess what? It is going to happen again, and God promissed He would wipe out the earth...not by flood but by fire.

quote:
How about the entire concept of a "chosen race" -- remember, the Hebrews came up with that before Hitler ever did.
Hitler's "chosen race" and God's were not the same. God chose Abraham simply because He knew that Abraham would follow Him and obey His commands. Now, does that mean that only Israelites can be the chosen race? Of course not, since Gentiles are also included...those are Christians.

quote:
Ephesians 2
12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 3
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

So unlike Hitlers race of people which is based on physical characteristics, God's race is based on their heart.

quote:
Fundamentalist Christianity is a plague on the earth and a thorn in the side of human progress. Its only effect on humanity is more hate and more destruction.
I wonder how many Christians rob banks nowadays...or rape people...or abort babies...or kill people. It seems to me that we are on the peaceful side of things at the moment.

quote:
Homosexuality is repulsive to many people simply because they think it is immoral. And why do they think it is immoral? Because the Bible tells them so. What dumb reasoning.
Evolution is right to some people. And why do they think it's right? Because scientists say so. What dumb reasoning.

quote:
Why the hell do the christians think you will be sent to hell and tortured by the devil? The devil is surposed to be evil and stuff so why would he tortur evil people for eternity? Come on, if the next Hitler who commits genocide and kills millions of Christians goes to hell, why would the devil torture him? This guys just done all the devils work for him, bah I will never understand the ramblings of schizophenics
Devil torturing people in Hell!? What book have you been reading? I think I have to clear up some misconceptions here...more verses IMAGE(biggrin0.gif)

quote:
Revelation 20
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Satan won't have the time to torment others, he's gonna be burning himself.

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Posts: 245 | Registered: Tuesday, February 17 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 3040
Profile #49
quote:
Posted by Razor:
That is how I feel about Gays. They are great people. (I know because I am related to a gay couple) I just do not agree with their beliefs.
Sorry, but that statement annoys me. Homosexuality is not a system of beliefs. People do not choose to be gay. Nor can you generalize and say that they are great people or not. They vary just like any other people; straight, bi, whatever. You can find any number of gay people with one set of beliefs, and as many or more with a different set. There are tolerant homosexuals, and fundamentalist christian homosexuals.

I'm not sure if I expressed what I wanted to say eloquently enough, but I hope you can get the gist of it.

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Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00

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