Profile for Stillness

Error message

Deprecated function: implode(): Passing glue string after array is deprecated. Swap the parameters in drupal_get_feeds() (line 394 of /var/www/pied-piper.ermarian.net/includes/common.inc).

Recent posts

Pages

AuthorRecent posts
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:26 Profile #16
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

What do you think would happen to a child that stood in front of the mighty Ghaldring demanding answers to why his family was killed?

*Squash*

Drakons want to become the Shapers, but with even more power and less ethics.
What would General Crowley do to a young Drakon who asked the same of him? Drakons do show humans some consideration. Shapers show drakons none.

[ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 05:28: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:17 Profile #127
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

ET, and I are the ones who don't listen to reason or concede anything? I don't really like to be grouped with ET because he is too extreme, but Waylander is just as extreme only on the other side. Waylander has conceded nothing...
My comments were directed to ET. He will continue to repeat the same argument even if a direct quote from the game says the exact opposite. He seems to make things up and make statements that are illogical.

Let me illustrate:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion.
Yes, and so they can't be blamed for their cruelty.
Throughout the thread the argument has been that Drakons are dumb animals that have no control over their greed and heartlessness. Now the argument is that Shapers can't be blamed for their cruelty?! Are they animals too, or are they thinking beings that should be held responsible for their actions?

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

The Rebellion, on the other hand, claims to fight for freedom and equality. They have a lot more to live up to than the Shapers do, and they are failing miserably.
This is called the bait and switch. The discussion is about drakons v. humans. The rebellion is made up of drakons AND humans. A failure of the rebellion is a failure of drakons AND humans.

quote:
Originally written by Death Twisted:

The problem is, that while humans have two sides, not to mention a neutral ground, Drakons can only be the bad side.
The Drakons very existence is banned by the empire that controls the land. Their very birth means they are hunted and at war with a powerful enemy. They are intent on surviving. One can expect a somewhat warlike mentality. Consider too that their society is young. That being said, it has been shown in this thread that drakons can be compassionate. It has been shown that they have honor. They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game.

Think about it this way: If you were a drayk, a gazer, an eyebeast, a servile with a little independant thinking, or a human that has been shaped and you were at a crossroads with one settlement down either road and all you know about them is that one is drakon and one is human, which would you go towards for shelter? Where would your chances of recieving a little compassion be better?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 19 2007 06:44 Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

Drakons, Drayks, and independent serviles are sapient beings, and they are being targeted for extermination for merely existing! That is their only crime... to exist!
Yes, and let's not forget the innocent gazers/eyebeasts. Poor misunderstood fellows. :[
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 19 2007 05:13 Profile #120
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Hahahaha! Stillness have you even played the last 3 Geneforge games? If you even played to a point where you meet the first Drakon you would know that they are much worse horders than drayks.
Yeah, a lot of times I don't remember the little details. I remember when you all point them out. The drakons greed is not as notable to me as their arrogance. It certainly isn't focused on as much in this last game. That's why I forgot.

quote:
Also, Drakons don't show compassion.
Definitely not their strong point, but it's been shown where they have. Not to humans, but to their fellow creations. I don't know how to pull quotes from the game, but see my above post. The humans don't show a great deal of compassion either, though. Someone quoted to show that the Drakons didn't care when Greta died. My response is to ask do Shapers care or feel compassion when they absorb/kill those they view as inferior and no longer of use? How does the Shaper at the checkpoint respond when Sandia has a change of heart and comes back to him?

The Shaper empire is based off of lack of compassion. They actually train initiates to be callous and they don't qualify to be a Shaper unless they are. That's why Litalia left.

quote:
Politics is just an ends to achieve what they want driven by their greed.
That's the definition of politics! That's exactly what humans do. Are the shapers known for sharing their wealth and power? Are they known for their humility? The point is they they are not just dumb animals only capable of fighting and hording. And they are not driven by greed so much as their desire to live and defeat those that would wipe out their race without mercy or compassion. One can't blame them so much for that. They may be natural horders and naturally arrogant, but they hate humans because they were hated first.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

No matter how you look at it, everything drakons do is motivated directly by either greed or pure aggression.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You are ignoring all reason and direct quotes from the game. While I disagree with Waylander, he is at least reasonable and will admit it when shown to be in error.

I will say this, if you think humans are any better than drakons or vice versa. you are missing what I see as the major theme of all the games, and the thing that makes them so compelling and true-to-life: The dual nature of man. Humanity has beutiful ideals - freedom, justice, equality. When these are trampled upon by other men we feel the strong need to right the wrongs. The hypocrisy is that while reaching to achieve the ideals, we are ourselves also guilty of ugliness. The oppressed are no better than the oppressor. While seeking to free themselves they use the same means as the oppressor. If and when they do get power they are corrupted and become the oppressor. See the Protestant Reformation or the United States of America.

Geneforge shows this hypocrisy using non-human characters, much like the book Animal Farm. The pigs and dogs are the drakons. I'm not so great with all the details in the game, but I see the forest that the trees are preventing you from seeing.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, March 18 2007 20:33 Profile #116
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Me: Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed.
Stillness: Where do you get this from?
Name one drakon that did not fit into one of these catagories.
[/QB]
Did you read silver's post? Let me requote:

quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

"It is a drakon, but unlike any you have ever seen. It glows. Powerful heat radiates from it, enough that it would probably burn you if you touched it. Whoever created it filled it with all the pure, uncontrolled power they could."
"And, as with all Shaping, there was a trade-off. In return for power, they gave up sanity. They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill." (emphasis mine)
Note the "and skill" part. It refers to shaping. Drakons can be skilled shapers. Also, you ignore that Ghaldring showed himself to be a skilled politician. The drakon you meet while escorting the rebel caravan, warmaster karkiss (sp?) i think, shows compassion on the serviles with you by lowering the electical field.

So there are a couple of names for you and three things that are not war and greed: shaping, compassion, politics.

BTW I can't remember drakons being referred to as greedy. I know that drayks horde, but I can't seem to remember drakons doing the same. Am I forgetting something? Or are you making things up again?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, March 18 2007 15:10 Profile #113
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

overall, the combination of these quotes is a stalemate to the argument. Neither side is more or less powerful, and neither is more or less capable of evil and good, or of brutality and art, or of arrogance and compassion. It all comes down to the individuals.
yes
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 17 2007 21:02 Profile #95
quote:
Originally written by 227 Chitrachballons:

G2:

THOT-THA THE GAZER:
"My design was first created by Barzahl. I was perfected and created in the mountains of the Takers, and my eye's path led me back to here."
"Barzahl's eyes saw the spark, the idea. But it was the Takers who created me. They are mighty."
"The Takers have ones who can shape, and marvelously. But the one who made me was not a Shaper."
Thot-Tha flinches back. You can issue powerful commands too. Finally, it says, "I can not say the name. But I can tell you I was made by a drakon of the Takers."
("No gazers will be made here?")
"Not yet. Only the mighty Takers can make Gazers..."
Excellent post.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 17 2007 20:54 Profile #94
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I agree that Drakon claws are far clumsier than human/servile hands (it's actually mentioned in GF2 that Drayks have clumsy handwriting), but Drakons move as fast as a human, if not faster (they have 8 AP, Quick Action, and always seem to strike me first in battle...)
Yeah, I'm talking about their hands. It is one of the things that makes us what we are - nimble hands.

quote:
While it is possible for humans to match Drakons in strength and speed, they usually have to be Shaped to the Max, or a Master Master Shaper with, with apparently centuries of experience and some nice equipment.

Either way, an unexperienced Drakon is far more powerful than an unexperienced human. Analogy: A woman, with adequate training, could easily overpower the average male. However, that doesn't change the fact that men have more innate physical power than women.
I don't ever play on torment. Maybe I should for more of a challenge. But, I found drakons, like salassar and ghaldring to be fairly easy to kill. And ghaldring is shaped himself. How do you think ghaldring and salassar compare to greta, alwan, or the other agent? I find them comparable. If there is a difference it is not much. And I don't have a problem with drakons being harder to kill, IF they are. As I said both sides have strengths and weaknesses.

Why don't the drakons wear armor? It may be due to arrogance or some other lack.

quote:
As Drakons are merely improved Drayks, it stands to reason that they are capable of spell casting. They just don't bother, since teeth and their fiery breath pretty much do the job.
No it doesnt stand to reason. Improvements in one area can cost in others. If they could bless themselves, use mental abilities, or heal that would be a great advantage. They do not, it seems because they cannot.

quote:
But that doesn't somehow cheapen their achievements.
By no means. They do quite well. About like humans under pressure.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Do you really think the drakons actually helped build the places they live in? Serviles do all that work, drakons, at the most, oversee.
The narration says they do. Even if they just directed the work as you assume, then they directed that room be made for art. Honestly, you should give this one up.

quote:
Is the fact that a parrot can mimic human speech a testiment to their intelligence?
Yes it is! If they were actually capable of using and understanding grammar, then they would be peers to humanity. As it stands there is no such creature on this planet but us. In the game there is - Drakons. They struck me as no more or less intelligent than humans. Some were shallow, but not all. They feel anger, have a sense of humor (such as when the council takes on a party atmosphere after you make fun of Salassar), and mourn for their dead. By the way, I don't think Ghaldring tells you to loot his tomb. He wants you to pay your respects. He is showing honor to a fallen soldier, even though he was his enemy in life. That is not the way that insane, war-crazed, arrogant, animals behave.

quote:
Everything the drakons know, they learned from Zachary and Barzahl.
Do you have any skills? Did you invent them or did you learn by observation? You can't teach a dolphin or a chimpanzee to erect a citadel.

quote:
Drakons know only two things: warfare and greed. That severely limits the potential these beings have. They can be fighters, or they can be hoarders, that is it. They can never hope to amount to anything more because it would be beyond what they were programmed for.
Where do you get this from? Are you playing the same game I'm playing?

quote:
Ghaldring is a liar. He'll say anything to prove his point. Does it even make sense for the Unbound to protect something? It was very clear that they blindly destroy, and are incapable of much else.
He strikes me as too honorable to lie like that. Greta and Litalia seem to recognize this. They trust him. He is the one that decides to be open with you and reveal that Greta is being detained. He arranges a complex series of events so as to defeat his rival while not directly killing him. He acts within his cultures laws (which are so complex that Greta gets bored trying to understand them) and manages to maintain the respect and devotion of his people. He has no problem revealing that you have been used for his purposes - to keep order and peace within the rebellion. How can you not see this?

He is not lying. The Unbound are directed by the Drakons and can be stopped by them as well. They do the job exactly as promised. I think you're just making up stuff at this point.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Geneforge world geographical questioning. in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 21:42 Profile #32
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

[QUOTE]Great, I feel like one of those nerds that over-analyses Star Trek or something.
Yeah, I think your feeling is dead on. :P
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 20:30 Profile #68
Drakons definitely appreciate art, or else why would they build space for it. Drakons are listed before serviles as the ones responsible for Northforge. They certainly are the dominant of the two races. If they didn't appreciate art, there would be no room for it in the complex that they built and run. That's a no-brainer. The fact that they have a complex that no human has touched is a testament to their intelligence.

Although it would seem that Drakons are physically stronger, they seem to lack the agility of humans. Think about your battles with drakons and people. Are the Drakons really any harder to kill? I don't think so. As far as spells v. Drakon fire, I havent noticed their fire hitting harder than spells. Are they capable of battle, mental, or blessing magic? They don't seem capable of magic to the same extent as humans. The fact that they have made advances in shaping might be due to the fact that they face the risk of extinction. Necessity is the mother of invention. Also, they don't have the same self-imposed boundaries that the shapers have. Someone mentioned the Nazis in this thread - they made discoveries and scientific advances beyond their contemporaries because they had great disregard for the sanctity of life.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 18:56 Profile #64
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Nalyd, Stillness, if you haven't noticed, we're making up the definition as we go along. We have been going into detail of the many aspects that we think makes a superior being, so so far we've agreed on that much, at least. If you have a problem with the qualities of 'superior' we've come up with so far, please be more specific than a generic dictionary definition that doesn't help at all.
It doesn't help because you don't want help. You want to argue - which is cool as long as you're having fun. I am. I'm procrastinating from very important real life stuf by engaging in a debate over fictional characters in a video game.

My position is this: Neither drakons nor humans are superior. They both have their unique strengths and weaknesses. Even with those it is difficult to compare because Drakons are a young race.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 18:38 Profile #62
quote:
Originally written by Enraged Slith:

You forget, that information is from a servile. If you give one an inch and it'll take a mile. That one is obviously dilusional from too many rations and a lack of authority.
Funny. Like good comedy it rings true to life. That is the way an oppressor thinks. As a decendant of slaves who were thought to be "inferior" (and still are by some) I always feel a bit of kinship to serviles, and even to some extent to drakons. I was very happy to be able to take the role of a free servile this game. I know firsthand the psycological difficulty that can come from forced servitude. Even after one is set free bodily, the mind has trouble catching up. I even have an arrogant, militant uncle that believes our "race" is superior to the one that formerly enslaved us. I reckon that this is why the Genefoge series is so endearing - it mirrors reality so well.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 18:21 Profile #60
I don't think this discussion is going to go far unless superior is defined - unless you all are just having fun bickering. In which case you shouldn't define it as you might actually resolve the issue. I personally don't see any substantial difference between the two that would lead me to say one is superior.

NOTE: IGNORE THIS IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE BICKERING.

superior (adj)
2: of higher rank, quality, or importance

I think this is the definition we want, in particular the quality part. So when you say one is superior to the other, what you're saying is that one is of higher quality. And if you say that one is higher quality you still have to be more specific.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 17:56 Profile #58
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things
Yes they do.
It didn't seem to me that ghaldring and the drakon you meet outside the gates that can serve as your second to get the key were as arrogant. Certainly not models of humility, but they seemed a bit more reserved and pensive. They also both recognize that humans have their place. They weren't insane or animalistic as some in this thread have claimed.

Also the humans in the game tend to be arrogant as well. That's why even some of the rebel serviles are jumpy around you. They still are not treated with equality by rebel humans. It should also be noted that no one in the game, human or otherwise, "creates" or "makes" other forms of life in the biblical sense. God makes or creates something from nothing. He is superior because he is the Creator. The term "shaping" is fitting as already existing forms of life are altered. It makes the relationship between shaper and shaped more like parent/child, as someone (one of the serviles i think) so aptly points out in Game 3. Even though the child comes from the parent and owes it's existence to actions of the parent, the parent does not hold a godlike role and is certainly not superior.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 13:18 Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by orange[s:
]
Even during GF2-4 (giving them a similar time period to work over) humans/Shapers have made the biggest advances in Shaping. The Drakons are simply refining an exisiting model with the Unbound etc.
The shaper's have the advantage of more experience, resources, and manpower. The rebellion is half human. Where are the great advances from them? It seemed to me that the drakons were actually right to some extent about being the stronger half of the rebellion. The real hope for victory lay with them. Not just that, but the drakon half of the rebellion seemed more civilized and well-put-together than the humans. The humans were just making it up as they went along (e.g. greta making herself general; the servile in chapter two that just assumed her role), while the drakons had a complex political structure and a real plan for victory.

It's very debateable that the shapers have made more advances. An unbound would own a trall, kyshakk, or a wingbolt. The drakons seem to be getting more dangerous every game. Given time I could see a victory for them.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 12:41 Profile #36
Yeah, one would probably need to define "superior." The drakons are superior in size and physical strength. Their arrogance makes them more closed-minded in general. But, the humans of the game aren't exactly the most humble and not all drakons suffer from the same extreme pride that gives some of them a warped view of things. They don't seem to be as agile as humans. I remember something about their writing being clumsy and crude. They are definitely capable of being clever, as in the case of Ghaldring orchestrating the death of what's-his-name. They are certainly capable of the kind of intelligence that allows them to succeed at scientific research. Their advances in understanding the genome was more advanced than shapers as can be seen by the use of the magical microscopes. Of course their focus will be on shaping drakons as they feel they are the pinnacle of creation, but they can shape other creatures.

The other thing to consider is that the majority of the story takes place in the human world from the perspective of a human. The drakons always come into play much later, so you never get as full a picture of drakon society. You just get glimpses. From those glimpses it seems to me that drakonkind is basically presented as equal to humanity.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 16 2007 06:05 Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

No wonder the Drakons are so arrogant, with a superiority complex. The fact of the matter is: They are superior.
No, only humans are created in God's image. It says so Geneforge chapter 1 i think around verse 26 ... or wait, maybe that's Genesis.

Seriously though, from an evolutionary and scientific standpoint I don't think there is any concept of superiority or inferiority. That's more the realm of spirituality. From an evolutionary perspective there is only the idea of being more adapted to one's environment. There are animals that can see better, run faster, lift more weight, process information quicker, etc. than humans. In fact, humans realy on animals, plants, bacteria to survive. The vast majority of life can do without humans (in fact we're the main cause of death and extinction for a bunch of them).

Edit: spelling

[ Friday, March 16, 2007 06:06: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Why is Battle shaping unpopular? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 9 2007 21:59 Profile #13
Glaaks are magic, not battle.

I prefer the shock trooper to the lifecrafter. The only magic I really use for both is blessing. The shock trooper is handy with a blade and is more hearty. Just my preference.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Why is Battle shaping unpopular? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 8 2007 15:21 Profile #6
quote:
Originally written by Cryptozoology:

Melee attacks always, always do less damage than ranged attacks. Also, battle creations don't really hit much harder in melee than other creation types do, and they don't have much more HP either.

In other words, they're not much better than any other creation at a kind of combat that's inferior in the first place, and they can't do anything else. War Tralls get a ranged attack, but it's not that great considering how expensive they are.
I have always thought this was odd. Since battle creatures are designed for melee they should actually be good at it. It's bizarre. Why even make a battle class?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
The best creations? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 6 2007 21:38 Profile #44
quote:
You're still missing the point. We're not talking about endgame here. We're taking the entirety of the game into consideration. Even if you put all your points into intelligence, you are not going to be able to get 7 of the highest tier creations available as soon as you get them.
We both agree that I'm missing your point. You can't ever make a full team of the newest available creation at any point in the game. You build as you level from the beginning of the game until the end IF you want stronger creations. Whether that means evolving, replacing, or both depends on your class and your style. With most creations evolving becomes less cost effective than making a new creation at some point.

quote:
Drakons, Ur-Drakons, and Gazers are not worth their essence cost because they are useful for the least amount of time.
Huh? They are useful. That's what I'm saying. If you have the essence and want a stronger creation than a drayk, make a drakon. He will hit harder, take more damage, resist effects better, and make you look more menacing. I will admit that Ur-drakons are quite expensive, but they hit very hard and slow your opponent. Again it's a matter of style and preference. I absorbed mine and went with drakons.

I honestly don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Your argument includes a time factor that completely eludes me. Should you not buy high level spells since you wont have them as long and they cost more gold?

Answer this question for me: I prefer a team of 6 or 7 (including my PC) when running a LC or ST. When I get my first canister of create drakon I have 2 drayks, 2 wingbolts, a rot, a cryoa and about 110 essence to use on my army. Which option will make my team the most potent, (1) absorbing a drayk and making a drakon or (2) training one or both of my drayks? Why do you so answer?

It seems we may be discussing different issues. I was originally responding to this:

quote:
I don't think that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are worth their cost. Drakons and Ur-Drakons do more damage and have more health than Drayks but it's just cheaper to create more Drayks or to level and evolve Drayks.
I never really used gazers, so I can comment much on them. I also haven't done a comparison between an evolved drayk and a drakon. I'll do that when I get create drakon with my ST. It does seem that the general consensus is that a drakon is still better. It definitely makes sense intuitively.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
The best creations? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, March 4 2007 23:51 Profile #42
quote:

I did do that with my Drayk + Wingbolt vs. Gazer example. A Drayk and a Wingbolt cost 8 more essence than a Gazer but they can do much more damage and they have two element types and physical melee attacks so they can deal with resistances better than a Gazer.
That's not comparing an army of lower tier creations with an army of higher tier ones. That's two v. one. Besides I already agreed with you on this IF you're running a small to medium sized team. Let's say I have one creation slot left and the essence for a gazer. Drayk + Wingbolt won't work. This comes down to a matter of playing style and PC class.

quote:
If you get a Cryoa as early as possible then they will be about the same level as a Cryodrayk when you get your third canister of create Drayk so they will have about the same stats. The Cryodrayk will have more hit points, hit a bit more often and hit harder but they cost 79 more essence. If you invest 4 more endurance into the Cryoa, it'll have about the same hit points as a Cryodrayk. If you invest 6 more strength into the Cryoa, it'll be more accurate and do as much damage as the Cryodrayk. The Cryoa will still cost 28 essence less than a Cryodrayk.
Now we're getting somewhere! I'm going to see if this works out for me. Maybe the problem is that I never shape my cryoas fast enough.

quote:
The issue isn’t which creations are the most powerful; obviously the 4th tier creations are the most powerful.
Actually it is the issue in my eyes. I'm starting to think that our disagreement is more on style than creation value. The lifecrafter that I had the first time through had 27 INT. That meant he was relatively weak. You may not like a PC that weak which means that you'll have less essence for your army. That's not wrong or right. It's just preference.

I'll say this though: I've played all 4 games and enjoyed them. When I started this one I decided to try something new and basically ignore my PC's magic and combat stats for the sake of essence for monsters. I'm not saying it's the only way to go, cause that'd just be boring. I am saying that there's nothing like a strong team to completely and quickly crush foes. Where I really saw the difference was in the fens and the battle with the shapeshifting golem that has the four guardians around him (can't remember name atm). My servile and infiltrator struggled with these while the lifecrafter slid though with ease. I couldn't understand why you had the option of enlisting rebel soldiers until I played with the servile (I still didn't use them but I was tempted).

quote:
Plus, there's the whole suspension of disbelief factor. You would think the Shapers would comment after seeing Dikiyoba's character walking around with a banned creation in tow and the drayks would be upset with a dumb, obedient drayk named "Squib".
So I'm not the only one! As the drakons are belittling me, I'm thinking, "I have a pet that looks just like you."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
The best creations? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 3 2007 02:44 Profile #36
quote:
If you wanted to prove to me that high level creations are worth their essence then you should have made an example comparing an army of lower level creations with an army high level creations that cost the same essence.
If you want to prove that they're not worth the essence then you should do the same.

I guess the only real problem is that i don't have the numbers for my experience. For example, I decided that I would use cryoas instead of cryodrayks. But even when I used my cryoas skill points to raise his stats he did not seem as good as a cryodrayk. It seemed that he missed more often, had lower endurance, didn't hit as hard, and got hit harder.

I'm almost midway through the game now on a shock trooper and am still using cryoas. I guess I'll try to do a side-by-side comparison when I get drayk to 3.

quote:
It's not very good idea for a Servile, Infiltrator, or Warrior to trade a Drayk and a Wingbolt for a Gazer.
Agreed.

quote:
Even Shock Troopers and Lifecrafters rarely have the essence to field more than 4 level 4 creations.

I also never said that Eyebeasts aren't worth their cost. I said that Drakons, Ur-Drakons and Gazers are not worth their cost.
The first time I went through the game with a lifecrafter I had 3 drakons, an eyebeast, and 2 cryodrayks. I still had 109 essence left to take care of my team. I rolled over all opposition with much greater ease than my servile or infiltrator. I felt like i was cheating somehow. I guess if what you're saying is true I could've gotten the same bang with 3 fyoras 2 cryoas and the beast. Man, that would save a lot of skill points into INT if it were true!

Like I've said before, a great deal depends on your playing style and class. If youre strong on shaping then you can easily max out your 7 creation slots and have a bunch more essense to spare. That's when i think high levels become valuable. I reckon the real issue in our little discussion is this: Is a trained low level creation as good as a high level one?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
The best creations? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 1 2007 05:35 Profile #27
Vicheron, I was responding to you comment that the high level creations aren't worth the essence. I say basically the same thing you say regarding classes/builds in the latter part of my post. If you're working with a servile an couple of drayks or cryodrayks are cool. Still, I doubt that you can make a drayk better than a drakon. Then there is the matter of effect (e.g. ur-drakon, eyebeast) that can't be duplicated with lower levels.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
The MAXIMUM in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 1 2007 05:01 Profile #11
My lifecrafter had 27 int at endgame and i needed every bit of it. of course that was with items.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Did you feel herded? (*spoilers included*) in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, February 28 2007 07:27 Profile #2
I know this is not exactly answering the question, but I never liked the fact that the whole town goes red when you attack someone or when one person sees you steal. If no one sees me attack the person or if i silence the person that witnessed my crime before they can report me, the whole town should not hate me.

Also I would like it better if my reputation was more localized. For example, if i kill rogues in an area then my reputation in that town and surrounding towns should improve. If I then did something dirty in a town where i had a very good reputation they should be more tolerant. Even if they go red because I kill someone they should not stay red forever. If I have a very good rep but kill someone inconsequential, my rep should go from very good to good or neutral. When I leave the town and come back in they should not be in kill mode.

That would make the game a lot more enjoyable to me. And yes, I did feel a little herded.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

Pages