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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

The right of Drayks and Drakons to exist is not worthwhile?

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Originally written by Retlaw May:

Stillness, while the quote is still not meaningless that your character has still not seen the Titan or Monarch's upper level creations severely weakens the impact and degree of meaning .

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Originally written by Lord Safey:

the creation of the unbound do not make the Drakon society supieor.

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Originally written by Stillness:

Emp please minimize the facts now. Maybe you could point out for us how the drakons lack creativity or something.

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Originally written by Morior:

I still say that three completely different creations show more variety than three creations that are basically the same thing wih different attacks.

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Originally written by Lord Safey:

considering that their is a picture of a serivle mechanic (has some type of tool in his hand) and an angry looking drakon glowering over a ruined creatiion vat to me at least it imples that they need the rest of the rebellion for their skill (directly in junction with the unbound).

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Morior:
Could you provide a quote?

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Stillness:

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Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

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Very much worth mentioning - good point!

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That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

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It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

The fyora could only do 60-80 in (melee) damage per attack[/QB]

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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

I agree that the Drakons tend to be cold-hearted, but only because the situation forces them to be so.

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Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Which is why I advocate the Servile over the Infiltrator. The Servile has no worries what so ever if he runs out of energy mid battle. He can just stand there and take it while his energy builds back up.

If Jeff made a sword that stole energy and essence with each hit, the Servile would become God.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Waylander:

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But leveling up a fyora or artila is pure madness.

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But it's fun! :P

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.

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It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

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Originally written by Meta-Undead Spokesmage:

Once they gained enough strength to lash out, even the Drakons took casualties trying to placate them. By the time they had reached Shaper lands, it was all the Drakons could do to run away with their paltry remaining forces.

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Stillness:
Don't confuse more variety with more skill.

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You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.

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Originally written by Morior:

And don't say that just because someone disagrees with you or you don't understand them, their logic is broken. Both sides of this argument are equally (il)logical.

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Originally written by Thuryl:

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Originally written by Stillness:

The issue is skill. You can't reason away the simple fact that the drakons have 'far more skill' than monarch. The game says it. Case closed.

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It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.

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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

Still:

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Somehow I'm a little offended at being compared to a fictional video game being

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Huh? Where did I do that?

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and even more offended at being compared to a hypothetical single-celled organism.

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Again, where did I do that?

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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

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Besides, single-celled organisms are not humans.

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Well, no. They are a long distant ancestor to humanity. But I guess we're veering off track.
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Ahh, but you see, that's where you are wrong. Humanity's grasp of the arts, science, cultured society, and technology, evolved over tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of years.

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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

But you might be terrible at drawing stick figures, and stick figures are a style of art as much as self-portraits are. There is a time and place for self-portraits and a time and place for stick figures. Sometimes quality is more important than quantity and sometimes quantity is more important than quality.

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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

For those who smirk at the Drakon's achievements, who claim that they are mere 'posers' with stolen knowledge, what had humans (in the game and real life) achieved after 20 years of evolution? By how much had they improved themselves in such a short time span?
How many barbarian tribes managed to successful adopt the techniques of the Romans, and use it against them, in such a short time period?

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Originally written by Sir Spiff:

He just didn't go far enough with his canistry. Also, he was building creations out of his basement, not fully developed shaping facilities.

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

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Originally written by... someone:
for no reason you ignore what quote says about skills and continue your nonsenses about resources

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I have every reason, actually. I'm trying to prove drakons are not superior, remember?

Is every person supposed to acknowledge every fact that has already been pointed out in everyone elses post? If so, I'd say I'm still ahead of the game, having refuted far more of other people's arguments than they have mine (see Morior's recap if you still don't get it).

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

How does abandoning control and putting raw power in it's place (which is what the description says) show ones mastery over shaping? You guys need to work on your analogies.

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Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

Good point about quality vs. quantity, Stillness. Anti-Drakonians on this thread keep pointing out that the Drakons have created fewer radically 'new' creations when compared with the Shapers.

Of course, they seem to forget that the Drakons are channeling all of their creative energy into a 'supercreation'. Why would you waste your time on tangents when you're on the verge of constructing what is essentially a secret superweapons which can turn the tide of a war?

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Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Has whether or not drakons can use magic been addressed yet?

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Originally written by Morior:

Wow. 13 pages of reading this and I'm still sane. I'm surprised.
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1. They're better at shaping.
I disagree. From what I've read, all they've made is better drakons. Even assuming that wingbolts, etc. are just improvements of old creations and not new developments, the shapers have variety and more radical improvements.

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