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Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 16:31 Profile #322
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

I think they have they have the potential to b e equal to humans...
I'm including potential in my estimation of superiority. I would say that an adult male is not superior to an infant, even though he is stronger and smarter.

Edit: If you go over the thread you will find a few quoted instances when a certain displays of arrogance are frowned upon within drakon society. They have potential.

[ Sunday, April 01, 2007 16:34: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 15:32 Profile #319
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Both sides feel that their own assumptions are more valid or implied through the story line, but they are still assumptions. I know that I draw some conclusions that I feel are implied in the story that the other side finds absurd, but those people should realize that they do the same and look equally absurd to us. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
There are at least three sides to this argument. I've tried to stick to arguments that are directly stated in-game or strongly implied without assuming much. I certainly don't think any of my arguments are absurd. I've been wrong, but I don't continue with a point once shown that i am. That's the mark of absurdity.

If you look at the whole picture based off of hard facts (not feelings, opinion, or imagination) I think you're hard pressed to go with either side being superior. Presenting a comprehensive argument in favor of one is basically going to apply good qualities to one race that both races have, apply bad traits to the other race that both races have, and ignore important details. That's what I've seen.

Anyone who disagrees with me is at least Nazi-like if not an actual Nazi. Do you agree Retlaw?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 09:05 Profile #314
I meant "until."

Just because someone's mind is not as subtle doesn't make them insane or unreasonable.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I'm stuck! please help! in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 08:58 Profile #5
I've done stuff like that plenty of times. You're not dumb by yourself.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I'm stuck! please help! in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 07:28 Profile #3
Did you speak with Agent Miranda?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 03:01 Profile #311
Why do you feel Ghaldring is more sane and reasonable than other drakons?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 02:59 Profile #310
"Until" means "until." Use the context and figure it out.

I already told you from the game why they're making another language. All drakons are not proficient with humanoid tounges so they are developing a more sibilant language. It is also described as secret. That's almost a direct quote.

Edit: Typo

[ Sunday, April 01, 2007 09:01: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 18:39 Profile #308
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense?
As long as he's giving the orders all creations will respect all other creations, so drakons and serviles work side by side. Understand now?

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

their superiority complex forces them to make their own language, despite the confusion and tension between races this will inevitably create.
Where do you come up with this stuff? The mention is that drakons are making their language not because of superiority, but because they want a "sibilant" language, apparently because of the make-up of their speech organs and/or brain. It will help to improve intra-species communication and may serve as a code for protecting drakon secrets. That being said drakons in general don't have a problem grasping or speaking English, some drakons do. You have an active imagination.

Honestly, I don't like them a whole lot either, but I think a lot of the negative things we so readily see in them are a reflection of badness in man. I can't think of anything they do wrong that humans in the game haven't also done. The arrogance, prejudice, violence, etc are all very human. If there was only negative, then I'd say they were inferior too. But, there isn't only negative. Chorss' insistence on respect for other creations even though some of his brothers disagree is just one instance of this.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 04:51 Profile #306
There is an interesting interaction between the PC and Chorss, the ur-drakon that is task master and guardian at the grayghost gates.

Chorss: "New gatesss, where we hold off and slay the Shapersss. We build big and strong. Grayghost Mountainsss oursss!"

PC: "Who is doing the work?"

Chorss: "Drakonsss! Servilesss! Together! Creationsss until my ordersss all respect other creationsss. Other drakonsss feel other. Not me."

This kills the theory that drakons don't work. It kills the theory that drakons are single-minded. It also shows that there is hope that they won't become just like the shapers. If they do, at least we can see that there are voices among them that disagree with mistreating other races just as there are among the humans.

Too, it's notable that he is a ur-drakon. This means that even though he has been given more size and power than a drakon, his sanity has not been sacrificed nor has he become more arrogant.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 30 2007 18:03 Profile #303
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

You are the lesser of the two evils on this forum at the moment.
Don't let him get to you, man. He disagrees for the fun of it. If you get mad he wins - exactly like Hitler and the Jews.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 30 2007 14:11 Profile #294
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

All creation where designed by humans the drakons merely improved upon them. The shapers found that existing creations weren't up to the challenge so they came up with newer more power creations. The drakons only answer is more power no creativity no adapting. Is this effect of infeior genetics or soceity forged by harsh conditions? I don't know but if they fail to change it they will fail. If they fail to change this regardless of the circumstances and I consider inferior.
Their answer was highly effective and demonstrated great skill. Whether it was creative or not is a matter of opinion. What is a fact is that the humans, rebel and shaper, couldn't come up with a better idea. I don't think it's because they're better. I think it's exactly what you said - "soceity forged by harsh conditions."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 30 2007 01:10 Profile #289
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

This thread now falls under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law . two or three times.
Yeah, we should probably stick a fork in it.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had never heard of this. I have to say that it makes a lot of sense.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 30 2007 01:03 Profile #288
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.
I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.
I thought so, but I don't like to assume too much. My point was that serviles are not banned as a race as drakons are. They simply are not allowed to disobey. Some comparison is fine, but it won't be even comparison. Its moot anyway as we're comparing drakons with humans, not serviles.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 15:52 Profile #282
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons.
The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions.
I remember Litalia being the first to join, but I don't remember anything like what you're saying being given as the reason.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?
What do you mean by loyalty? If you mean a truce then it doesn't even have to be hypothetical. They already live at peace with humans that don't have them marked for destruction. They even seem to respect Litalia and Jared.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:50 Profile #275
quote:
Originally written by jared:

i just killed everything
What was that you were saying about drakonian instict? ;)
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:47 Profile #274
quote:
Originally written by jared:

so :mad: your point is. yull have to say it in public
I didn't have a point. I was just asking. Don't be offended.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:27 Profile #269
quote:
Originally written by jared:

i was 6
as in years old?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:25 Profile #268
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

I think that drakons have the potential to be humans equals, though they have not lived up to that potential.
I reckon they do fairly well for their age as a race. In fact they've bested humans in some ways. The one somewhat valid point that Emp made is that there is not a group of drakons that seeks to live peaceably by themselves. The flip side is that they are banned as a species by the dominant world empire. Serviles do sometimes try to live peaceably, but they are not banned from existing. If I have to be a slave, but you're kill-on-sight some of our responses might be similar, but we'd expect some differences as well. Any comparison is not apples-to-apples.

It's telling in my eyes that the drakon high council has not banned humankind in turn or even decided to seperate themselves from humanity. They start a rebellion and actually allow humans to join! What more can you expect? Come on, even humans have their pride.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 03:41 Profile #263
quote:
Originally written by Sir Spiff:

Drakon morality? I think not. Even their code of honor is a pragmatic foundation for mutually beneficial cooperation, designed with limited, but sufficient, allowance for petty bickering and treachery.
The same could be said for human morality. Without checking a dictionary "a pragmatic foundation for mutually beneficial cooperation" sounds almost like the definition of morality. If you want to see petty bickering look over this thread. I don't think there are any drakons writing here. Besides, the majority of bickering and treachery among the drakons concerns how they will fight the battle for their very existence. It doesn't get more unpetty than that.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 02:57 Profile #261
quote:
Originally written by Lord Safey:

I have heard why they think humans aren't superior but their vages on what qualties Drakons do have that make them supeior.
Read Waylander/Suspicious Vlish's posts. He's the main proponent of that position. If by "they" you're including me and/or silver, we don't believe either race is presented as superior. It was only necessary to show that both races basically have the same "higher" qualities (deductive reasoning, empathy, morality, etc).
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Best PC class? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 05:42 Profile #19
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

I've actually played the Battle Servile to the end of the game, and ironically, I found that it's more difficult than a Shocktrooper.
Shaping is more powerful than magic or combat.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 05:31 Profile #250
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Maybe you should check the poll and see what the majority really thinks.
I think he means the majority are reasonable, whatever their opinion is. I do wonder what the results would be if the poll included all three positions, though, not just waylander's.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 05:28 Profile #249
Sorry Tullegolar, he's even more brillianter than you. *crowns sir spiff as new emperor*
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Energy Preservation in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 26 2007 22:19 Profile #4
quote:
Originally written by wary wanderer:

that was a horrible reply.
Yes, but somehow hilarious to me.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 26 2007 22:15 Profile #245
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

I must have mentioned this about 10 times, and yet some people are still grappling with the concept.
Give us another 6 pages of dialogue - we'll get it.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

As for the Cairne Gates drakon. People who are helping someone else out of sympathy do not consider what they are doing a "service." That word is a dead give away. He does not care for those he is helping, he is helping them because he has to.
Brilliant! Most of us are doing our best to read between the lines. You see the lines between the lines and read between those. I see why they call you emperor.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

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