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Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 26 2007 08:51 Profile #242
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Do you understand now why the quote was relevant? Now, do you have something useful to contribute ( a summary of the opposing argument like the one I made would be nice) or are we done here?
Actually I do understand now. I still wasn't clear on the technical distinction you were making. But, Ghaldring is saying that he intends on protecting the serviles with the unbound. He will use them to stop those that would kill the lesser beings while the lesser beings remain sheltered. That was the point from the beginning. No one said the unbound will be standing in a circle holding hands with the serviles in the middle. They will protect by killing the enemy. It's not a direct quote, but it is what Ghaldring is saying. Your statement that he never said it is at best a half-truth. And a half-truth is a whole lie. No hard feelings from this end, but it is what it is.

I don't have the time to make a nice summary atm. My contribution is making clear what anyone that choses to disagree whith you is up against. In doing that I have also listed a quote directly from the game when a drakon at the cairn says, "We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss." The full exchange let's you know why the drakons and serviles are irritated by your request - they don't like taking orders, especially from humans because "their suffering at the hands of the Shapers have left them understandably wary of all humans." That being said the drakons have responded immediately to Litalia's (a human) request for help here even though they feel they have more important business. An honest look at things make it clear that drakons have emotions, including empathy. That is why they do lower the field.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, March 26 2007 04:04 Profile #239
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

Tullegolar was correct to say that a misquote started a thread where Unbound were portrayed as and then refuted as protectors. I quoted a bit of Ghaldring's speech in an attempt to quell that subtopic. I said as much just a few posts ago. We can drop this subtopic now :)
Honestly I didn't even understand the initial exchange on page 4 until now. I understood him as describing the unbound as protectors in that they would kill the enemy while the rebels would be kept safe. That's what I was defending.

Here's the problem silver: waylander said on page 8 that the drakons were going to protect the serviles. Emp then resurrected this exchange to refute him. That's what I am referring to as a lie. Even after I pointed this out and requoted from the game he still won't acknowledge he's wrong, so it's not an honest mistake. It's a warning to you and anyone else reasonable that you cannot win with him. You will just spin your wheels.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, March 25 2007 22:18 Profile #237
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie.
Here is the first time:
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

never does it say that the Unbound are supposed to shelter people. Ghaldring says, "_Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers._" (emphasis mine)
The second time was me repeating this. Don't call me a liar unless you know what you're talking about, please.
Waylander said that the drakons were going to protect the "lesser races" (seemingly implying that humans would be included). Silver listed the above quote where Ghaldring states his intention to protect the "lesser beings," making the distiction that people would not be included (which is debatable as the drakons view humans as an inferior beings). Waylander later says that drakons are going to protect the serviles. In response you make the statement above: "It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this." This is a boldfaced lie.

quote:
Originally written by Warmaster Kermanuiouss:

This forum is getting to be very redundent.
It's way beyond redundant. In my opinion Emp's tactics have caused it to be as such. For anyone truly interested in understanding how the drakons feel about humans and creations the complete exchange between the PC and Warmaster Karakiss at the Cairn gates is very telling.

Emp, your pants are on fire! :P
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 24 2007 19:52 Profile #230
quote:
Originally written by BLACK HAZE.:

waylander,you have them on ignore for what reason? If i may ask.
Some may believe that humans are superior to drakons, but I don't believe that Emp does. I could be wrong, but I think he's debating for the sake of debating and riling up anyone he can for the fun of it. He's got one or two legitimate points. The rest is fluff (e.g. lies, twisting of facts, ignoring valid points, repeating arguments that have been falsified, distractions, etc.). For example, the fact that drakons show kindness and even a self-sacrificing spirit is problematic for him, so when presented with quotes and incidents directly from the game where they do he says they don't exist.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?
It has already been pointed out twice that this was someone's misquote. It's not that Ghaldring was lying, it's that he simply never said this.
Not only does he lie about Ghaldring not saying he was going to protect creations, but he implies that someone else pointed out that it was a misquote twice (which never happened) to add weight to his lie. Notice the quote directly from the game:

"Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers."

He was also reminded that the drakons helped at the cairn gates. Here is the relevant exchange:


Warmaster Karikiss:"You humansss are our alliesss, but we do not serve you. We will rather die than serve humansss again. We have done you a great service here, at risk to ourselvesss. Now we go."

PC: "Before you go, could you lower this field? I have several serviles I need to escort to safety."

The drakon and the serviles look irritated, but it was wise to let them know that the lives of creations were at stake. The drakon says, "All right. I think we know where the controlsss are. We will deal with it."

Now for Emp's fluff after these incidents were pointed out to him:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Claims that the drakons show empathy are unfounded. They treat other creations, humans, and even each other like crap...The opposition has yet to give an example of a time when drakons helped someone other than themselves when it was not to their own immediate benefit.
It's funny to me. It's unfortunate that Waylander let him "get his goat."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, March 24 2007 02:29 Profile #214
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Shapers do both.
When did Shapers release rogues into the wild? They usually go through great lengths to control all of their creations (see Barrier Zone).
What do the shapers do at endgame when the drakons have had success with the unbound? If I'm not mistaken they do the same thing. My memory is failing me again.

And rogue doesn't quite apply to drakons or a shaped human the same way it applies to a fyora who is out of control. The shapers group them together so as to justify their slaughter.

I admit that drakons don't have a softer side like some of the serviles you see in the game, but to compare them is not really apples-to-apples as drakons are banned and serviles are not. Serviles blend as they are more human physically and you can't tell loyal from rebel if they are smart. I remember a few times when you encounter serviles and your PC notes that.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 23 2007 18:13 Profile #211
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Stillness:

quote:
Do I get a prize for catching you?
No.

Dikiyoba's final paragraph will be as long or as short as Dikiyoba wants.
hmm, ok ... a bit loose with "paragraph" but we'll let it go
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 23 2007 17:50 Profile #209
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

[QUOTE] Surely you don't see killing rogue shapers and creations as being on the same level as releasing rogues into the wild to kill at random?
Shapers do both.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 23 2007 17:47 Profile #208
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead.

Dikiyoba.
Aren't you supposed to speak of yourself in the third person? Do I get a prize for catching you?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, March 23 2007 03:54 Profile #194
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

They may excel in violence, and be doomed to lag in other areas.
SoT, I agree with a lot of what you said, but was curious as to whether you feel that drakons are any more violent than humans? I saw this argument from a few folks, but didn't see it myself. Not debating, just wondering.

I hope we get to see more of drakon society in the next game. Maybe it would conclusively answer this question of superiority for some. In my opionion the authors intent is clear already.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, March 22 2007 20:40 Profile #189
I enjoyed this thread. When you started it you said simple question with a complex answer. Well predicted. This has actually given me a much deeper appreciation of the depth in this game. I also view the drakons differently now.

In hindsight I think we could have gone about things differently. "Superior" is subjective, but it can be qualified if you get to specifics. You could for example break down all the categories in which one species would be superior to another: physical stregnth, shaping, intellect, magical ability, artistic ability, adaptability, variety in personality, empathy, honor, and whatever else we could think of. The key would be dealing with these seperately and assigning points to them. The problem would be that some things would not be as important as others and some would overlap, so you'd have to agree on how much each would be worth. Probably not as fun, but more conclusive.

BTW, simply wearing your opponent down by making him repeat himself, restating unsupported claims, and not yeilding to reason when you're clearly wrong so that he doesn't want to talk anymore doesn't constitute you the winner. My uncle uses these tactics all the time. That's probably why I tired before Waylander.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I Killed the Unbound in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, March 21 2007 04:15 Profile #36
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

OP?
Original poster. You.
Thanks
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 22:51 Profile #149
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

You only ever encounter fighters, single-minded machines. There is no depth to them. That kind of depth, which can even be found in simple little serviles, is just not there. Admit it.
They are better shapers than the Shapers. A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

quote:
Khima-Uss, or, as they like to call it, Khima. The leader there tells you the original intent of the founders of that town before the drakons took it over: "We chose a place out of the way. A place where those like me, who were tired of war, could come to work and find husbands and wives and try to live out life in peace, like proper creatures." So the drakons are not only incapable of living this way, but they have to ruin it for others, as well.
I remember this now. This doesn't prove that drakons are incapable of living peacefully. They're not angels, but they're doing what armies at war do and doing it quite well. I guess they could just give up and be killed or run and hide for the rest of time. They've decided that the only option is to stand and fight. I don't see how any of this makes them inferior to humans.

It should be noted that they actually do give ethical consideration to their tactics (the ones that the human part of the rebellion agree to and that the shapers take up when they start to see the tide turning).


PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?";
Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."

This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth."

Are drakons driven only by greed?

"I will reward you." (He gives you a charm made of puresteel). "This is from my own personal hoard. A great honor for you."

It has been noted accurately that arrogance is a drakon trait, but not all are arrogant beyond reason. Some seem to even have dislike for it.

Ghaldring: "Salassar had grown too strong. Too arrogant."

Teliamerus: "I am not the current bearer of the key. Scourge Vossizon is. That uselessss and arrogant specimen."

"We drakonsss do not normally take titlesss. That she chose one for herself is a measure of her idiotic vanity and arrogance."

"You should accept the duel and beat that arrogant reptile into the dirt."

Oh yeah, I know how to find quotes now!
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 18:27 Profile #145
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

[quote=Stillness]
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
What are you talking about?
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
They have a sense of humor. They appreciate art. They are not animalistic, but have a complex culture and political structure. When you are attacked in their home, even though you are a human, they are very upset because you are their guest and their code of ethics does not allow for harm to come to a guest. They (except of course the criminal responsible) are genuinely sorry and show it by compensating you with money and information. They are not all bad, just like the humans in the game.
I call these claims unjustified.[/QB][/quote]I made two claims (1) they are not animalistic (2) they are not all bad. The rest of my quote is stuff that actually happens in the game. Those are used to support my claims. What exactly are you calling unjustified, my claims or the events that support them?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I Killed the Unbound in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 17:22 Profile #26
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

That said, when I killed the Unbound, I didn't encounter anything odd. The game went on as normal.
If you kill it after it stops attacking you, the bug isn't triggered. Presumably the OP managed to kill it before it did so.
OP?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 17:16 Profile #142
quote:
Originally written by Nalyd The Dead:

Yes, but the Drakons had a good long time before the Shapers even knew where it was.
The only hope that the drakons (and all the beings that have sided with them including humans) have is the unbound. Before they even complete them the shapers are on top of them. You think they should be focusing their efforts on starting a school of the performing arts.

In actuality it has been shown that they did make time for art by making space for it in their compound. I guess it bears repeating for the zillionth time since making time for art while you're losing a battle on all fronts against a stronger enemy is somehow the measure of a society. Is there any other mention of art in this installment of the series, besides this one that applies to the drakons? I don't recall any. Think about it.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:38 Profile #140
quote:
Originally written by Death Twisted:

ET's point was that the freeborn serviles had time to make art, even though they were in a much worse situation than the Drakons, who have a remote mountain base all too themselves.
I honestly don't remember the "freeborn serviles" that made time for art. One wonders where they are now. Probably dead. However remote the drakon base is, the shapers have made it to them. Sounds like a pretty bad situation to me.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:21 Profile #138
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.
What, like tons of freeborn serviles haven't done just that? There are plenty examples of serviles living on their own, avoiding warfare, practicing whatever trade they've gotten into.
Very true. I didn't say it was impossible, jut hard. And the point is that you can't blame them for defending themselves. They don't just go around killing indiscriminately for the fun of it. Their violence is directed towards defeating their enemy.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Drakons enjoy battle and little else. They were created to shape and fight by Barzahl, and, unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters.
What evidence do you have that they only enjoy battle? The picture I get from the encounters with the drakons is that they have no more or less depth than the human characters. The quotes and references in this thread from the game show this. If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede. Find it for me.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

...unlike serviles, they seem unable to move beyond those parameters. I would say even serviles are superior to drakons.
I do recall the servile tinkerers in the second or first game. I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:00 Profile #137
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

If you can find any human rebel who clearly sympathizes with the plight of the drayks/drakons, please post it!
Isn't it the drakons that convert Litalia after she is sent to destroy them. I can't remember her story exactly, but I think in game three she says that when she encounters the drakons they convince her to turn against the shapers.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I Killed the Unbound in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:55 Profile #2
This qualifies as spam? Maybe I don't know what spam is. I think it's informative. Don't read it if you don't like it.

[ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 14:56: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:25 Profile #134
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

All drakons, every single one, either serves the cause of the Rebellion without question (they never question the violence and the hatred, as if they are born knowing only those things), or they are one of the few exceptions that live on their own gathering wealth. I would say that humans are superior because they don't all have to be shapers, or soldiers, or politicians, or pawns. They can be anything, anything at all. The question is, are drakons superior because they all have to be warriors or shapers, or are humans superior because they don't have to be?
All drakons don't hate humans. They all hate shapers. They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
I Killed the Unbound in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:13 Profile #0
Anybody ever killed the unbound that breaks his shakles at drakon headquarters? I did (I think with my infiltrator). The game can't handle it. You get stuck in the room where he is. So don't kill him unless you save first. This post is really about me bragging, I just threw the tip in. That's all...
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 13:57 Profile #23
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Thank you, Sartre. But what makes art interesting is that we can debate it reguardless of whatever the author's real message may have been.
Smart comment aside, I agree here. I reckon you do know something. ;)
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 13:44 Profile #132
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Stillness: You are right, this conversation has been drifting away from its original topic. Surely, though, you are not saying I am the only one to blame?
Nah, you're cool. I think you're trying to stir stuff up and keep it going, which is not a big deal. This is a debate about fictional creatures in a video game.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

You took the 'bait' by the way. Just as I did, you're confusing the Shapers with humanity as a whole. We should probably not do that.
I may have, but I don't think so. My point is that humanity is no better than the drakons in the grand scheme. There may be minor differences, but overall they are the same. So I can point to the shapers to say they do the same bad things as the drakons. It proves my point because even though not all humans are shapers, shapers are humans. It shows that humans are not superior. No bait-and-switch there.

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Now, what other arguments have I been making that you see as contrary to the evidence from the games?
I don't know dude. Your argument has been disproven on every count in my eyes. The "drakons are superior" guys have a stronger argument, even though their still wrong.

quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

Stillness, you are making presumptions that have no real basis in the game.
What are you talking about?

[ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 13:45: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Oh, so the Shapers are more ethical, are they now? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 06:13 Profile #18
quote:
Originally written by -silver-:

and, I honestly think, if a young child stood before Ghaldring or his followers, based on his other speeches and actions, I think the drakon would probably just shoo the child off.

before Salassar or his followers, the child would likely be dead. But, then, there are some shapers who would sympathy for a young Drakon, as well.

why can't people understand Jeff's point, "Nobody in Geneforge 4 is as evil as they seem. Or as good." and that it comes down to the individual, not the species or sect, how someone will act?
Well said. I love that quote. It's a rare game that has the depth of this series of games. It's a shame that folks are missing the theme.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
If you could be any creation... in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:31 Profile #36
Eyebeast. I always wanted telekenesis.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

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