quote:

---

Originally written by Kinggolden:

1. No. The second time got a worse reception than the first time, so I doubt the third time would make it off the ground. It took so much just to get to this point, and starting again would just be plain laborious. However, if by "jumpstart" you mean post something in the thread, that'd be fine.

---

quote:

---

2. This will probably be best. We can discuss the endings in this thread. Here's my view, basically:

Avernum: The Domioners get the portal going to the Tower of Magi ruins, and as the Hunters conquer, non-humans start going down in hordes. The twisting passages of the Honeycomb, the cursed realm of the Mertis Spiral, blah blah blah, all become the Dominion of the Free or whatever, with the Tower Colony as the capital. More and more non-humans pour through the portal, and eventually battles with over the Great Cave and Eastern Gallery commence. Almaria is devastated, and the Silvarians are forced to cut the bridge. The Lady takes the NE, battles over Lake Avernus, eventually the Lady wins after tricking the non-humans, blah blah blah.

Surface: Vantanas struggles to unify, fighting hordes of demons and rakshasi. Hunters win the War of Krizsanian Unification, and shift attention northwards. The Great Game of sabotage, subterfuge, spying, stealing, and smashing continues between the Sanctuary and Hunters, culminating in war. The Dominioners give the promised aid, and soon the Sanctuary is forced to flee into Northern Valorim through the Troglo castle, the passage being sealed by magic behind them. Hunters and Dominioners negotiate a line of demarcation, and Softport is liberated. Maybe an invasion of Bigail, battle of Lorelei after that, I don't know. Either the Hunters, Sanctuary, or Dominion rally enough forces to unite Valorim, and then start marching into the Blackcrag Pass, invading Pralgad. From there, world falls like dominoes, from Pralgad to Aizo to Vantanas.

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:

---

But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too.

---

No, because the circumstances for Rebels and Shapers aren't symmetrical. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter simply to retain your position of privilege so that you can continue oppressing and genociding, after having oppressed and genocided sapient races for centuries, is not justified.

Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified. And let's not kid ourselves, the distinction between 'Shaper' and 'Outsider human' isn't significant. Outsider humans willingly profit off Creation slave labour, and support Shaper genocide, as much as the Shapers themselves do.

---

quote:

---

Yet here many posters are, defending the genocide perpetrated by the Shapers. I know that it is only a PC game, but the fact that you can justify genocide on an ideological level is quite scary.

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Lepus timidus:

"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians? :rolleyes:

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Azarr:

quote:

---

So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.

---

Eh... what? No they're not, they may be proving the shapers correct by their actions (This is my view, I'm pro-shaper. Just wanted to point that out.) but they are not supporting them, not intentional naturally, but neither are they doing it unintentionally.
That is rather difficult. You cannot do that, at least not the way the rebels are acting, they are opposing the shapers. Their somewhat extreme actions just show that the shapers are correct(At least to some degree.) but it does not mean they support them in any way.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

---

What?! No they're not. Well rogues tend to be... but anyway, no. Serviles are not feral are they? Or savage? No. Are fyoras feral? No, they're, well slaves, sortof. Only the rogue ones are feral or savage. So no, they are not all savage, feral beasts.

---

quote:

---

No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along. That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Khai:

quote:

---

The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives.

---

I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime.

---

quote:

---

The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak.

---

quote:

---

Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians.

---

quote:

---

And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries.

---

quote:

---

This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.

---

quote:

---

Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get.

---

quote:

---

What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)?

---

quote:

---

This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads".

No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects.

This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought.

There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations.

So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

---