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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender.

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In the GF3 Rebel Ending (and the Taker ending), your PC is sent as a diplomat to the Shapers to tell them of the invasion. Naturally, the Shaper Council in Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender.

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Whether or not they would have is moot,

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No, it's not moot. Shapers have been conditioned not to 'bow' to their Creations, hence there was no point of offering the Shapers a chance to surrender PRIOR to the invasion, because:

1. It would have been laughed at (witness GF2 Taker/Awakened ending).

2. The Rebels would have lost the element of surprise, which apart from the Geneforge, was the only advantage they have over the Shapers.

3. The diplomats would almost certainly have been killed (witness rebel endings to GF 1, GF 2, GF 3)

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But I do agree that once the invasion has been launched and the Rebels have some leverage, Shapers should be offered a chance to surrender and recant their anti-Creation ideology. And they were. None of them took it.

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all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual;

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I'm going to disagree with you, here. An individual wouldn't be a member of the Shaper sect unless they believed in the inferiority of their Creations, and their right to snuff out independent Creation life. In fact, having such an attitude is a prequisite for being allowed to progress in their sect.

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the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.

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No, it's called a pre-emptive strike.

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The problem is that individuals such as yourself and Diki think that the Shapers can be reasoned with by independent creations, when it's shown time and time again that Shapers will do nothing of the sort

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But by all means Nioca, tell me how independent serviles and Drayks can negotiate with the Shapers for autonomy, when Shaper ideology makes it quite clear that independent serviles and Drayks shouldn't exist in the first place?

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

[b]

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Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?

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No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat.

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Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force.

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Nonsense. The troops on the starships aren't attacking... the ones on the ground are! So apparently, you're willing to tolerate those motherships full of troops hostile to human existence in the Earth's stratosphere. And it was genocide for the humans to force their way onto the ships and slaughter them.

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Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat?

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Let's stick with the Shapers, atm.

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Have the Shapers declared a war of extermination against all independent Creations, much as the Gorg have against the humans?
Yes, they have. Simply because not every Shaper is at Quess-Uss's doorstep with a Discipline Wand in hand does not change the simple fact that they are sworn enemies of the Rebellion. If a people declare that their aim is to exterminate you (and are more than willing to carry it out, see the genocide of the Drayks, the extermination of the Awakened in GF 1 and GF 2), you are more than justified in engaging in a 'pre-emptive' strike out of self-defense. Hit them before they hit you, parry dodge and spin, wot wot.

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No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy

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Wait! Didn't you previously assert that they were only fighting against an immediate threat? Immediate threat is NOT synonymous with enemy.

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, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path

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No, the Rebels are killing their enemies. Or, if you don't consider the Outsiders their enemies: The Rebels are killing their enemies, while inflicting a lot of collateral damage. Reminds ya of the good ole United States of America, hey?

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[b]How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.

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Ahh, I see. So you choose A: Firebomb the crap out of them. Because the best way to cripple the economy is with a good ole fashioned firebombing (or nuking).[/b]

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It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.

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Nonsense. I'd rather try the more conservative methods of dispute resolution first (compromise, pinpoint military strikes, etc.), but if they don't work, then it's time for the gloves to come off.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?

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And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:

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I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is.

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To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Originally written by Nioca:

You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction.

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No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

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And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers.

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I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies).

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Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way.

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Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve?

That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984?

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Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.

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It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die.

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Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty.

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I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics.

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Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable.

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And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers?

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Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them.

For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.

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So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?

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For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.

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Originally written by Nioca:

There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people.

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Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.

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There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources. It doesn't involve chasing down every single person who might possibly support the opposing side (which effectively includes everyone in your path) and ruthlessly murdering them in cold blood.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.

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Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no.

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Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

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Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime?

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Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

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Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die.

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Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

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Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

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There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.

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False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).

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Originally written by Kinggolden:

...Nioca keeps coming up with crazy ideas, Nalyd's doing nothing...

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Originally written by Nioca:

No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

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Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations.

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No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me.

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However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge.

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Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority.

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And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime...

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That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army.

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That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.)
You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist.

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That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted.

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It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations.

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Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control.

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A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide.

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No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide.

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No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone:
"I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies."

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Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

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I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them.

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It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide.

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Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.

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Originally written by Excalibur:

As of right now we have four contributing members and a puppet faction.

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Originally written by Lepus timidus:

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Originally written by Nioca:

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire.

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The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy.

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Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely.

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And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it.

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And you say they're justified in doing so?

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That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious.

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Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.

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I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'.

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I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified.

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What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

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