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What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #141
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:

Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender.

In the GF3 Rebel Ending (and the Taker ending), your PC is sent as a diplomat to the Shapers to tell them of the invasion. Naturally, the Shaper Council in Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender.

The Shaper Council. Not every Shaper on the face of the world. 9 Shapers. Somehow, despite them wanting to, I don't think they speak for every Shaper in the Geneforge world.

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quote:

Whether or not they would have is moot,

No, it's not moot. Shapers have been conditioned not to 'bow' to their Creations, hence there was no point of offering the Shapers a chance to surrender PRIOR to the invasion, because:

1. It would have been laughed at (witness GF2 Taker/Awakened ending).

2. The Rebels would have lost the element of surprise, which apart from the Geneforge, was the only advantage they have over the Shapers.

3. The diplomats would almost certainly have been killed (witness rebel endings to GF 1, GF 2, GF 3)

What, the Rebels were incapable of attaching a note to those lovely invasion cards they sent in GF3? "Oh, and any Shaper who agrees to cooperate won't be killed."

quote:
But I do agree that once the invasion has been launched and the Rebels have some leverage, Shapers should be offered a chance to surrender and recant their anti-Creation ideology. And they were. None of them took it.
I'm sorry, but I've never seen or am failing to recall anything along those lines. Could you post evidence to those claims?

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all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual;

I'm going to disagree with you, here. An individual wouldn't be a member of the Shaper sect unless they believed in the inferiority of their Creations, and their right to snuff out independent Creation life. In fact, having such an attitude is a prequisite for being allowed to progress in their sect.

And what about those few Shapers that, privately, don't? By your argument, Litalia must believe creations inferior as well.

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the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.

No, it's called a pre-emptive strike.

Do you even know what a pre-emptive strike is?

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The problem is that individuals such as yourself and Diki think that the Shapers can be reasoned with by independent creations, when it's shown time and time again that Shapers will do nothing of the sort
And they can be. How else can you play an intelligent servile and join the Shapers in GF4? And the Shapers aren't this constant war-mongering bloodthirsty threat; if they were, the Ashen Isles wouldn't remain under rebel control in the events of the Shaper ending.

quote:
But by all means Nioca, tell me how independent serviles and Drayks can negotiate with the Shapers for autonomy, when Shaper ideology makes it quite clear that independent serviles and Drayks shouldn't exist in the first place?
Because there's the miraculous species inside the Rebellion that can negotiate with the Shapers without overly inciting prejudice. They're called *gasp* HUMANS! :eek:

Oh, but I forgot. The Creation side of the Rebellion effectively threw the human side away, and refuse to trust or even really acknowledge them except as a nuisance and/or inferior.

See, someone like the PC in GF4 might have possibly been able to negotiate a truce, if the Rebellion had laid off the 'annihilate the Shapers or die trying' garbage. If the Drakons had actually been open to negotiation, this could easily have ended in less bloodshed. But instead, the Drakons chose the coward's way out, and unleashed a mutant horde of uber-creations against the Shapers.

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Ultimate Faction Survey Poll in Geneforge Series
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #11
That was deliberate. I wanted to know which side you supported most, and a none-of-the-above option would have granted skewed data. This poll doesn't ask which side you play the most, but which faction you agree with the most.

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #139
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

[b]
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?

No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat.

So you're conceding the point that simply because one appears to be targeting a race, does not mean that one is committing genocide. Excellent![/b][/quote]But it is if they actually are targeting that race.

quote:
quote:

Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force.

Nonsense. The troops on the starships aren't attacking... the ones on the ground are! So apparently, you're willing to tolerate those motherships full of troops hostile to human existence in the Earth's stratosphere. And it was genocide for the humans to force their way onto the ships and slaughter them.

Nope. You see, the troops on the starships are part of the invading forces. Thus making them an immediate threat.

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quote:

Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat?

Let's stick with the Shapers, atm.

Read as: I'm never going to admit that I might possibly be wrong, and thus will steer the debate away from those dangerous waters.

quote:
Have the Shapers declared a war of extermination against all independent Creations, much as the Gorg have against the humans?
Yes, they have. Simply because not every Shaper is at Quess-Uss's doorstep with a Discipline Wand in hand does not change the simple fact that they are sworn enemies of the Rebellion. If a people declare that their aim is to exterminate you (and are more than willing to carry it out, see the genocide of the Drayks, the extermination of the Awakened in GF 1 and GF 2), you are more than justified in engaging in a 'pre-emptive' strike out of self-defense. Hit them before they hit you, parry dodge and spin, wot wot.

Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender. Whether or not they would have is moot, all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual; the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.

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quote:

No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy

Wait! Didn't you previously assert that they were only fighting against an immediate threat? Immediate threat is NOT synonymous with enemy.

Don't be an idiot, you know what I mean.

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quote:

, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path

No, the Rebels are killing their enemies. Or, if you don't consider the Outsiders their enemies: The Rebels are killing their enemies, while inflicting a lot of collateral damage. Reminds ya of the good ole United States of America, hey?

A lot of unnecessary collateral damage that could be avoided rather easily. Yet it isn't. So, if anything, that makes the Rebels guilty of numerous counts of negligent homicide.

quote:

quote:
[b]How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.

Ahh, I see. So you choose A: Firebomb the crap out of them. Because the best way to cripple the economy is with a good ole fashioned firebombing (or nuking).[/b]
True, but I didn't choose A, now did I? I choose a path that got the job done without becoming a complete monster myself.

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quote:

It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.

Nonsense. I'd rather try the more conservative methods of dispute resolution first (compromise, pinpoint military strikes, etc.), but if they don't work, then it's time for the gloves to come off.

Really? Because most of this debate, you haven't advocated any sort of diplomacy or such. Just blow everything up in this grand pre-emptive genocidal strike.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Disfunctional Item Abilities in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #3
Negative strengths work fine. However, they'll only reduce the primary stats to 1 and all other stats to 0. So, as long as you weren't planning on someone having -16 Thrown missiles or -4 Nature Lore, you shouldn't have a problem.

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #132
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?
No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat. Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force. Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat? No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path or happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe if they had actually focussed the fighting on the shapers, they would never have had to worry about releasing the unbound.

quote:
And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:

How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.

It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.

quote:
I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is.
When a rational, open-minded person looks at it, they can see how it really isn't contradictory.

quote:
To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.
I think the term generationist might be better fitting. I, personally, have nothing against Drakons as a whole; just the most recent generation. And since they're just becoming the next generation of Shapers, it's not really a wonder why. I'd rather have the current regime of Shapers in place then a new regime that'll be even harder to throw off.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Ultimate Faction Survey Poll in Geneforge Series
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #0
Yep. Yet another one. This time, though, it's a comprehensive survey, both of all factions and of the Shaper/Rebel dynamic, for each of the Geneforge games, and also as a whole.

Note that, for questions 1-7, try to answer that question within what you saw in the game, rather than your overall opinion.

Poll Information
This poll contains 9 question(s). 23 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=MsQnNLLXJXCo"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=MsQnNLLXJXCo"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window IMAGE(votenow.gif)     IMAGE(voteresults.gif)

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #128
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction.

No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

Yeah, but I also believe that the average person shouldn't feel morally obligated to get themselves killed for naught, either. Even if every outsider simultaneously rose up and attacked the Shapers, I doubt they'd do more than put a dent in Shaper forces. They're just too heavily out-gunned. And I'm not talking Nazis vs. Jews outgunned, I mean Japan vs. the atom bomb. And in that confrontation, if you recall, the atom bomb won.

quote:
quote:

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers.

I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies).

Yeah, but these incidents are in the minority. The Shapers have proven that, if anything, they're especially apt at covering their tracks and conjuring a very convincing illusion of something they're not. GF3 is a particularly strong example; even amongst the typical Shaper, the idea of smart, independent serviles is nothing more than a rumor. The Geneforge was completely covered up and concealed, and if it wasn't for the Sholai, it probably would have remained that way. Now, if the Shapers are so skilled in covering their tracks that they can conceal information from themselves, what does that tell you about the chances the Outsiders have of stumbling on useful information?

Additionally, when the Shapers deem that something (like Drayks) must be exterminated, it's typically someone from the Shaper sect that's sent to deal with it. Litalia is one such example.

quote:
quote:

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way.

Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve?

That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984?

Are you actually insinuating that all serviles are smart creatures who desire freedom? Because there's a load of in-game evidence that states otherwise.

Anyway, it would look more like the Drakon and human sides of the rebellion are ordering them around. After all, how many independent serviles have you seen on the frontline that have not been accompanied by humans or Drakons? Not many.

quote:
quote:

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.

It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die.

We both know? Really? That's funny, because there is no possible way for anyone (aside from Vogel) to know that. Different situations can result in different stances. But of course, the Rebels are currently more interested in inflicting as much damage as possible than even giving negotiation a shot, so I guess it really wouldn't matter anyway. I mean, even the Shapers are more willing to negotiate than the Rebels (not by a wide margin, considering it's more on an individual basis, but still). So, quite frankly, it's still genocide

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quote:

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty.

I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics.

I agree that some people will get caught in the crossfire. It's pretty much unavoidable, and is effectively why war should be something of last resort.

However, the methods you propose and support take it one step further. Rather than accidentally killing civilians, these methods dictate that one should go out of their way to kill civilians.

quote:
Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable.
Fair enough, but you don't then turn around and attack nearby bystanders too.

quote:
quote:

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers?

Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them.

For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.

You see, there's a vital flaw in your little example here. The humans weren't targeting them because they're alien; they're targeting them because they pose an immediate threat. But the Rebels, along with your methods, are making very little discrimination between who's a threat and who's just a person in the wrong place at the wrong time. So while the example isn't Genocide, the rebel actions are.

Nice try, though.

quote:
quote:

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?

For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.

You sure about that? Or could it be that, with the advent of GF4, people started seeing a side of the Rebels that they didn't like?

quote:
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people.
Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.

Perhaps I could have stated that a little better. Let's try again, shall we?
quote:
There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources. It doesn't involve chasing down every single person who might possibly support the opposing side (which effectively includes everyone in your path) and ruthlessly murdering them in cold blood.
Ah. Much better.

AMEND: To all those with the patience to follow this debate, I direct your attention to this thread, and implore you to vote. Thank you.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 12:37: Message edited by: Nioca ]
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #301
Why not? You could break away into your own, independent sect. A nation of thieves, if you will.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #125
No one likes a mini-mod, Olop. Just for future reference.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #299
Well, I had to find something to combat your enormous army. Besides, it encourages a relationship between Sanctuary and the Thieves Guild. And I wouldn't exactly call it a super-potion either.

[ Wednesday, March 05, 2008 14:26: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #120
There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people. You'd turn Terrestria into a massive, burnt-up graveyard.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #117
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.
No, I'm not. You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction. Fact is, the only thing people like that will get is a thorn lodged in their heart. And that's only if they're lucky enough to avoid becoming Creation chow for some Shaper's pet.

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers. They don't see toiling slaves, cruel experiments, and tyrannical overlords. They see creatures who enjoy serving humans, mystical new bioinventions, and benevolent, if strict, rulers. The average outsider doesn't even set foot inside a Shaping lab. So what are they to know about the mysterious Shapers?

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way. The fact that they consist of creations is all the more support for Shapers and strict creation controls.

quote:
quote:

Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no.

Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

Rebellion being justified? Yes. Rebellion being a moral responsibility? Not unless the person can actually do anything significant. Getting themselves or, god forbid, others killed doesn't count.

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.

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quote:

Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime?

Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

It's funny you should drag that up (again), but I seem to recall that the Nazi regime was also the government of many of the Jews who were killed. Tell me, did the Jews get the government they deserved as well?

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quote:

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die.

Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

Hmmm. Maybe if I start drawing connections between the rebellion and Al-Queda, and then throw them in your face every chance I get, you'll finally lay off the Nazi garbage.

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty. Allow me to clue you in: they're not. I'm not saying that the sage isn't an enemy, I'm saying that the sage isn't as guilty as the person or makes the kill, if only because the sage doesn't know what the wand is actually being used for. He doesn't know that it's being used to oppress free creations, he just thinks it's to put down a radical group of malcontents. In the bomb scenario, the person making it knows exactly what it's being used for, and thus is as guilty as the actual bomber, if not more so for knowingly enabling the crime in the first place.

But this explanation is probably lost on you, because you keep proving that you're incapable of seeing things as other than black or white.

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quote:
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Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.

False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. And, honestly, I don't think you buy it either. The Rebels are after genocide. Freedom is an afterthought that'll quickly end up discarded when the Drakons take the throne.

---

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?

(In this one, it's 65% for Shapers, 35% for Rebels; that's almost a 2:1 ratio for the Shapers)

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 18:38: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #294
quote:
Originally written by Kinggolden:

...Nioca keeps coming up with crazy ideas, Nalyd's doing nothing...
What does Nayld have to do with anything? He never even joined the RP.

Also, how are my ideas nearly as crazy as you aligning with a dragon, deciding to destroy the Phoenix Empire for no IC reason whatsoever, or trying to get necromancy?

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #113
EDIT: Oops. Massively awful misinterpretation on my part (of Dikiyoba's post).

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 14:03: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #111
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations.

Can you at least read the posts in-context? Sheesh, it's like you have the attention span of a fly on caffeine.

For context:
quote:
No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me.
Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no. We're debating whether the Rebels are justified in their acts. You think they are. I say otherwise. Hence, the impasse.

quote:
quote:

However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge.

Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority.

Yet, according to your draconian policies, anyone who supports the Shapers in any way must die. It's not black or white; there's a lot of gray area in the middle, which is why your policy on this doesn't work. Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime? Or are the people just trying to feed their families as much an enemy as the warriors out on the field?

quote:
quote:

And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime...


That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army.

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die. It's a direct result of someone pointing that wand at a creation and firing. Let's turn the situation around. Say aforementioned wand ends up in the hands of the Rebels. Does that make the sage a rebel?

quote:
That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.)
You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist.

There's a difference between striking back and destroying everything in your path, a difference you refuse to see. Only someone intent on causing more suffering than necessary would burn crops and butcher civilians. It's senseless destruction.

quote:
That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted.
There's no such thing as a righteous war. Just because that's how things have been done doesn't make it right, and I'll add that wars have been conducted without going out of one's way to commit atrocities that you apparently support.

quote:
It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations.
Why? Because two wrongs DO NOT make a right! Because the Rebels in fact do have a choice! Just because the oppressor tried to genocide them does not give them the right to repay in kind! In fact, it denies them that right all the more simply because they of all people SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

quote:
quote:

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control.

A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide.

The two are related more closely then you realize, but I'll concede. If only to keep to the more pressing issues.

quote:
quote:

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide.

No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone:
"I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies."

Get a dictionary. Look up genocide. No, wait, how about I bring the definitions to you.
quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.

quote:
I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them.
And how do you suppose the Outsider humans do that? The Rebels can't even dissociate themselves from the Shapers and their ways, let alone some poor guy stuck smack in the middle of Terrestria!

quote:
quote:

It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide.

Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.

It does if your enemies are pretty much all of a certain nationality. And, surprise! In the Rebel's case, it is!

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #291
quote:
Originally written by Excalibur:

As of right now we have four contributing members and a puppet faction.
Five. Dintiradan hasn't bowed out (yet).

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #284
I just want to say that, for varying reasons, this will likely be my last RP for a long time.

As in relation to this one, I'm waiting for Nikki and Tullegolar's next moves before I proceed.

[ Monday, March 03, 2008 11:51: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #267
Oh, well excuse me if my writing style isn't up to your holier-than-thou standards. Unlike you, who started this and then effectively abandoned it, I actually had to keep up with the other players. This meant dealing with whatever got thrown my way, be it by Goldenking, Dintiradan, Excalibur, so forth. And there was and is a lot. I actively tried to keep my posts concise, and also add depth. Several of those posts could have easily hit 8 or 9 page-lengths. But I abstained. And this is the thanks I get?

So, quite frankly, I don't give a damn if my writing doesn't come to scratch with your standards. When you actually get involved with this RP, you can have an opinion.

Was that short enough for you?

[ Sunday, March 02, 2008 17:49: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #262
I second Tullegolar, and would like to point out that the original Avernum RP had some pretty long posts as well. So did LoD. And I don't recall anyone complaining about post length in either case.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #257
Way to go, Ephesos. Instead of just writing an IC yourself, you up and condemn one of the people who is actually contributing to the RP, and whine about post length. Great work. :rolleyes:

Tullegolar, I really wish you'd stay in this RP. Another major player leaving might just deal a final blow to it.

About the Hunters: We follow what Goldenking laid out, and then from there, we have them become a semi-static NPC force (unless, of course, a new player wants to take up the faction). They just exist, occasionally doing things related to our faction that a Hunter would typically do.

[ Sunday, March 02, 2008 12:22: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #107
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire.

The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy.

No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

quote:
quote:

Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely.

And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it.

The council equals 9 Shapers. However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge. And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime... but then we're just heading back in a cycle of control again, aren't we? No freedom; just bigger and tougher-to-kill jailers.

EDIT: Correction; Council consists of 9, not 3. Good catch, Nick.

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control. But right now, neither faction, with the exception of the Trakovites, is willing to give or meet half-way. Everyone (Shapers, Rebels, and potentially Trakovites) holds a mentality of all-or-nothing. Either win/keep control of the world and destroy all who even slightly oppose you, or die trying. And until one of those factions decides to relent, aiming for something more feasible and even possible, the only difference between the regimes will be how scaly the overlords are.

quote:
quote:

And you say they're justified in doing so?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious.

quote:

Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.

I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'.

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide. It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide. The Rebels are trying to commit genocide. If you justify what the rebels are doing, you justify genocide. Plain and simple. But you most certainly cannot have it both ways.

quote:
quote:

I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified.

What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

No, the posters are saying that the Shapers had reasons for doing so, not that they were justified in doing so (with an exception for Nayld, who's an oxymoron in every sense of the term).

[ Monday, March 03, 2008 08:26: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #252
3.5 page lengths. Well, I'm at least headed in the right direction. :D

(and a point to anyone who can spot the BoA reference, and which scenario it's referencing)

Excalibur, it's up to you how much you want Shamgar and Ferrrald to say to Iocabe and Amarfrra.

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The bottle of deep blue liquid ominously swirled, seemingly of its own accord. -- #11 - The Skribbane Blues

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 22:39: Message edited by: Nioca ]
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, IC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #73
POULSBO

A gate. Sanctuary had a small army, along with a few soldiers from Dellston, attempting to take Poulsbo. And they were being thwarted by a simple, closed gate. To add insult to injury, a skinny, buck-toothed Looter was sneering at them from the other side.

It wasn’t for long, though. A Sanctuary soldier managed to lure the Looter close enough to grab ahold of him and smash his head against the gate. The unyielding iron met with his skull, and the iron won. The Looter sank dizzily to the ground, unconscious. Bresnen managed to convince the guards that they weren’t here to kill everyone inside the town, and with the help of the soldiers from Dellston, the guards reluctantly agreed to let them in. It only took a few hours more to convert Poulsbo.

Sanctuary had achieved yet another victory in Midori.

ANGEL’S REST

Faenelle laid prone on her bed, eyes tightly shut with a cool, damp cloth draped over her forehead. Thankfully, the dull pain in her temple was finally starting to be subdued. It was not to be, however; someone knocked at the door. Faenelle groaned, then shouted, "If it isn’t a potion for headaches or Telkavoth himself, go away!"

There was a brief pause, then the door opened and Wevern stepped through. "I apologize, ma’am, but one of the Healers and an apprentice want to see you."

Faenelle groaned again, then sat up. The damp cloth fell to her lap, causing water to soak into her gown. "About what?"

"Something about a potion."

"It better be for headaches." Faenelle grumbled as she stood and followed Wevern out of the room.

-----

To Faenelle’s dismay, the potion was not a headache cure. The bottle of deep blue liquid ominously swirled, seemingly of its own accord. "What is it?"

"We aren’t exactly sure yet!" said a rather excitable apprentice mage. Faenelle noted that Wevern had bypassed the typical years of silence that go with apprenticeship. The nearby healer stepped forward and intoned, "I was endeavoring to realize a more effective healing elixir; a brew that repaired, emboldened, and empowered the imbiber. And I became aware that I knew of a singular reagent that had every of aforementioned qualities: Skribbane."

"Skribbane?!" Faenelle yelped, shocked.

"Indeed. Naturally, I had to discover an herb that neutralized the more... undesirable effects. And while I may have not succeeded in realizing such a philter, I did stumble across something far more… potent. Behold," the Healer said, striding over to a cage with a rat, "a rabid, ravenous rat."

The rat snarled and attempted to bite at the healer’s fingers. The healer grabbed the bottle, uncorked it, and poured a drop in its mouth while it snapped at him. Within moments, it became docile. The healer gently opened the cage, lifted out the now-calm rat, and held it in his palm. "Complete, utter submission. The fortitude and fire have been sapped out of the feral beast within a moment, leaving it stunned." As if in response, the rat squeaked lightly and looked around blearily.

"Great..." Faenelle muttered. "But how does that help us?"

"Watch." The healer got another rat, just as rabid, and poured several more drops near the rat. While the rat didn’t ingest it, a cyan mist seemed to rise from the drops. The drops evaporated quickly into mist, and the mist dissipated. When it cleared, though, the second rat looked as stunned as the first. "When inhaled, the haze created by the elixir has a similar effect, albeit with reduced potency, to drinking the potion itself. And when disturbed, it evaporates even more quickly, unless in a closed container."

"And I had a headache before." Faenelle mumbled.

"Ma’am," the apprentice spoke up, "if I may be so bold, think: what would happen if a bottle of this was thrown into a crowd?"

And suddenly, Faenelle got it. "How potent is this?"

"It depends on the dose. But it is extremely potent; I had a single drop earlier, and was delirious for about 5 or 6 minutes. But we need more Skribbane; it’s the primary ingredient, and we can’t get it from ordinary channels."

But Faenelle realized that Sanctuary might already have the key to getting more Skribbane.

AMINRO

"Ah, I see that you once again do Sanctuary proud, Amarfrra." Iocabe looked at the two ragged people behind the Wraith. He merely nodded in response. Iocabe then added, "I also see that they are in no condition for idle banter. Let them have accommodations, some nourishment, and perhaps a nice bath. And maybe send a healer to tend to the nephil’s wounds. We can save getting acquainted for later." At this, a soldier guided the ragged pair out. Iocabe quickly conferred with Amarfrra. "Anything important I should know?"

"Only that they’re from the Midori Prrovince, and that they’re definitely the shadier type." Ever since Iocabe knew him, Amarfrra always had an unusual tendency to keep his nephilian accent out of his voice; it was a rare occasion when he rolled one of his ‘r’s. All considered, Amarfrra was an unusual nephil by any standard.

"I’ll keep a guard on them, then. Next order of business?"

An aide approached. "Someone named Fleet, sir. Claims he’s from the Phoenix Empire."

Iocabe brightened. "Let him in." At this, a wiry soldier entered the room. "I heard of the attacks on the Empire. You have my condolences."

Fleet looked rather nervous. To be safe, he decided to stick to what he had rehearsed. "The Phoneix Empire is making it's way north. Once there, it will help bolster the armies of Sanctuary, and settle in the northern spaces of Valorim."

"That’s good to hear. Anything else?"

"Erm..." Fleet looked unsure.

"Know that you can briefly have your host rest here, to re-spirit and regroup. We offer whatever hospitality we can afford, which, while limited, should be enough. Sound agreeable?"

"Um..."

"It’s settled then! Tell the rest of your forces that you are very welcome inside city walls."

"Erm... thank you?" Fleet staggered away, desperately confused. Iocabe hadn’t quite been what he had expected. Iocabe chuckled to himself. As Fleet left, a messenger from Angel’s Rest ran in, handed Iocabe a note, and left. He scanned it briefly. "Amarfrra! Are you feeling well enough for a reconnaissance mission?"

Amarfrra nodded in the affirmative.

"Good. We need to contact the Thieves Guild in Lorelei, for it seems we have a need for Skribbane. I suggest, once they get rested up, that we question our two guests from Midori to see what they know. After that, you’ll be off to Lorelei." Amarfrra bowed and left.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 22:25: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #251
Well, right now, the thing this needs is posts. The limit can come later. I say, fire away!

I do understand why he wants the limit, though. To be honest, 5 page lengths is a bit much. I only do it cause it's the only way to cover all of the events.

...

And I might possibly get carried away a little bit. :P

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
The Avernum RP, OoC Thread in General
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #248
In that case, let's get this party started (again).

I'm still working on my IC. I'm trying to keep it more concise, but it's a wait-and-see thing, really...

In short, this thing is starting back up again.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 15:39: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00

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