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All In The Family in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 20:45 Profile Homepage #55
quote:
Originally written by Andraste:

We put you there before you asked, buy for different reasons.
Creepy. Well, clearly it was meant to be.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 20:44 Profile Homepage #377
quote:
Morior:
Could you provide a quote?
quote:
Stillness:
quote:
Thuryl:
It's worth keeping in mind that the game says this before the PC can have access to the Sealed Catacombs, so the PC doesn't yet know the full extent of Monarch's skill at that stage.
Very much worth mentioning - good point!
That's the second time someone has called me a liar and been totally wrong.
quote:
Waylander:
It's revealed consistently that they indeed can exert a significant measure of control over the Unbound.
No. You're making stuff up again. They have great difficulty controlling them even with Akhari Blaze, and even then, they are only able to lead them in the right direction before they totally run amok. Is this the "significant measure of control" you speak of?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
All In The Family in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 15:01 Profile Homepage #39
I could be TM's other widow. He does refer to me as Empress, after all.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 14:51 Profile Homepage #372
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

Monarch did not demonstrate himself capable of mass-producing the Titan. The Drakons are capable of mass-producing the Unbound.
There's also a lot more drakons than there are Shaper Monarchs, genius.
quote:
I'd argue that the Unbound are indeed stronger. The prototypes you are forced to fight are slightly less difficult than the Titan, and the unfinished Unbound that Blaze uses to attack you if you side with the Shapers is roughly equal in strength.
I'll give you that. But again, Monarch was one man in a basement and he managed to create something that rivals the best the drakons can offer. Imagine what a whole group of humans with vast resources at their fingertips could do.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 13:35 Profile Homepage #369
quote:
Originally written by Morior:

2. Are you talking about his claim that you acknowledged his rebuttal of a quote as true?
It wasn't my rebuttal, it was Thuryl's, and Stillness did acknowledge it.
quote:
vld:
And monarch isn`t one of the best shapers?
I sure hope not, he's a crazy guy living in a basement. Seriously though, we have yet to meet the best the Shapers have to offer (the Council), but doesn't it say something about the strength of humans that one crazy man in a basement could even be compared to the best the drakons have to offer?
quote:
Titan is stronger? No? Titan can be controled? No?
What's the matter with you? I said "when they abandon this need for control." And yes, the Titan is tougher than the unbound you fight at Quessa-Uss.
quote:
Serviles situation is better than Drakons. Serviles are in danger as a sect while Drakons as a race. Big difference.
Could you explain this difference? They are both marked for death, that seems like the same situation to me.
quote:
What other options? Hide until they are found and killed?
They could build up their defenses in the meantime, biding their time. It could only have improved their chances of winning an inevitable war, right?
quote:
And serviles were programmed to obey, unfortunately shapers failed at programming.
Really? Then please point out the drakon that does not fit the description I presented.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Meet the speed breed! in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 11:30 Profile Homepage #12
quote:
Originally written by Morricone:

Doesn't "gimmick" have a "k" in it?
Yes.

Bonus post.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Meet the speed breed! in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 10:52 Profile Homepage #7
quote:
Originally written by #3:

TOOO much!!! +1 posts for me!
You stole my other-people's-celebration-topics gimmic.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 10:10 Profile Homepage #363
quote:
vld:
That shows clearly that at that moment Drakons are superior in skills so resources doesn`t matter.
It says they had more resources and skill than Monarch. And it was not even taking into account Monarch's more powerful creations, just the crappy ones you see in the swamp and city. That quote is worthless, do better.
quote:
Drakons built one creation which is superior to everything shapers had ever created. If it was that easy to create unbound then we would see something even stronger among the creations of Shapers. But we don`t, why? Drakons are better at that.
That's not why. The reason why is because Shapers value control over raw strength. When they abandon this need for control, they make even more powerful creations, like the Titan. This is like the tenth time I've pointed this out.
quote:
You realize that Drakons are in risk of extinction? They have 2 options :
A) Die
B) Die while fighting for right to live and maybe they`ll survive as a race.
I thought you said you read the thread? Did you miss the part about the serviles (who are in just as much danger as the drakons) and yet they try to form a peaceful community hidden in the mountains? Forget them? The options you mentioned are not the only options, but they are the only ones the drakons understand. This makes sense though, considering that this is exactly what they were programmed to understand.
quote:
Stillness:
The Emperor has spoken. He opinions are facts, the facts that dispute him don't exist, up is down, and good is bad.
Not a single thing I said in the section you quoted was an opinion. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute or have you given up like Waylander?

[ Monday, April 02, 2007 10:19: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 09:41 Profile Homepage #358
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"They have followed the same path as Shaper Monarch, but with far greater resources and skill."

Let it go. You're wrong.
It has already been stated (and you've already acknowledged) that this quote is meaningless. It is saying that the unbound took more skill to make than the crap creations that were running around in Monarch's marshes. I'm not wrong, you're quote simply doesn't hold the weight you thought it did. The game may indeed say that the drakons are skilled, but we have yet to see this skill manifest itself in any real accomplishments on their part. They make bigger drakons, crappy geneforges, and talk about quantity over quality, they're the ones leaving weak mindless rogue batches all over the place while Shapers concentrate on new, tactically superior creation armies.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 08:51 Profile Homepage #354
Reguarding drakons evolving in record time: The first drakons were made from intelligent, very independant drayks. They were first given this intelligence by the humans that once inhabited Sucia. As for them stealing knowledge, I wouldn't even give them that much credit. They had it handed to them. The drakons had Zachary and Barzahl to spoonfeed them tons shaper knowledge after they were created in Drypeak. Anything that the drakons have accomplished they have done so because it is what they were designed (by humans) to do. This is the main reason why I personally have such a hard time seeing them as superior to humans, despite the fact that they are indeed stronger in many ways.
quote:
Stillness:
Don't confuse more variety with more skill.
You don't think more variety is a sign of skill? I'd say it is. The fact that drakons make the all powerful unbound is not so much a sign of skill as a sign of power and strength. Monarch shows us that humans are equally capable of this power and strength. The two species may even be equal in this regard, but humans still have the drakons far outmatched as far as ingenuity goes.
quote:
Morior:
I highly doubt it's true that all drakons are either fighters or hoarders.
This wasn't even an assumption, there simple aren't any drakons that don't fit those descriptions.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Monday, April 2 2007 00:40 Profile Homepage #337
quote:
Originally written by... someone:
for no reason you ignore what quote says about skills and continue your nonsenses about resources
I have every reason, actually. I'm trying to prove drakons are not superior, remember?

Is every person supposed to acknowledge every fact that has already been pointed out in everyone elses post? If so, I'd say I'm still ahead of the game, having refuted far more of other people's arguments than they have mine (see Morior's recap if you still don't get it).

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 21:32 Profile Homepage #335
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

You chose Monarch as one of the most powerful shapers. That's a fact. The game says that drakons are far more skilled. That is a fact. It proves you wrong, not me.
Note that your quote says the drakons have far greater resources than Monarch. It is another testament to human superiority that while the drakons are stuggling to win the war despite many drakons working around the clock with the resources of entire provinces at their disposal, Monarch still manages to give pause to both them and the Shapers, conquoring almost an entire province by himself using nothing but his own willpower and a few machines in his basement.
quote:
My analogy was to make it clear that quantity is not quality, nothing more.
I still don't think this makes sense. The Shapers spend their time developing new tactical creations for use in a variety of situation, that's quality, is it not? Drakons focus more on dumping raw power into existing creation templates, this sounds more like quantity, does it not?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 20:23 Profile Homepage #331
quote:
Waylander:
I'd argue that these three character are not human, but are examples of what Magneto terms 'Homo Superior'. Shaped humans are to regular humans as Drakons are to Drayks. They have advanced beyond their pitiful pink fleshball state.
Could someone please point out to Waylander that this would mean taking ur-drakons and Ghaldring out of the equation as well? All that ignoring me is accomplishing for him is that he is now falling behind in the discussion

Stillness, are you saying that the new creations, War Tralls (created to compliment the melee battle creations with ranged tactics) wingbolts (one of the few creations with non-vestigal wings, capable of scouting and vastly superior magical ranged attacks) and Kyshaks (radically new in every war and very strong yet still controllable) are stick figures compared to the raw power of the unbound? How does abandoning control and putting raw power in it's place (which is what the description says) show ones mastery over shaping? You guys need to work on your analogies.

Magic: What makes you say drakons can use magic?
quote:
Waylander:
Why would you waste your time on tangents when you're on the verge of constructing what is essentially a secret superweapons which can turn the tide of a war?
The Shapers "waste" their time on creating tactically superior and controllable creations because they have empathy for the civilians that are getting caught up in this war, something the drakons don’t seem to understand. I don't blame you for not figuring this out on you own, though, you still seem convinced that drakons are capable of empathy because the helped some serviles once.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 19:21 Profile Homepage #325
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Neither Barzahl nor Monarch are typical Shapers, though.
You're not assuming all drakons can shape, are you? Despite something that was said earlier, drakons have to learn these things like everyone else. Thus, I thought it was fair to compare the best the humans have to offer with the best the drakons have to offer.

On a side not, Diki pointed out that Barzahl was canister enlightened, and therefore was not just any human. I suppose we should address this. Are we talking about pure humans versus pure drakons here? This would hurt both sides equally, I think, the humans would then lose Barzahl, Monarch and other unnaturally powerful shapers, and the drakons would lose Ghaldring as well as all other ur-drakons. I think it is fair to include those that have been shaped, any objections?
quote:
Geneforges aren't all that powerful.
Ah, you mean drakon geneforges aren't all that powerful. Danette's geneforge could turn its users into empire forging demi-gods. And she (a human) was using 200 year old technology at the time. Humans are better at geneforges, despite the fact that drakons have had more experience (1 geneforge versus 4).

Has whether or not drakons can use magic been addressed yet?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Bored and tired. in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 18:50 Profile Homepage #9
It would have been better if I was in it.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 07:38 Profile Homepage #313
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"Until" means "unti."
What?
quote:
Why do you feel Ghaldring is more sane and reasonable than other drakons?
Greta says at one point "Ghaldring has something almost unique among the drakons: a subtle mind." Earlier when Waylander was using Ghaldring as an example of why drakons are as clever as humans, I pointed out the fact that he is "almost unique" in this regard. Any other drakon prefers to solve problems by fighting.
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

But the drakons have enough skill and enough technology over the Shapers to surpass them
What makes you say this? What makes anyone say this? I have not seen this supposed skill that people always talk about. Humans make better creations. Anything that the drakons make that is stronger (the unbound or various mistakes found in dungeons) are only stronger because they do not require the control that the Shaper prefer in their creations. As I said before, when the desire for control is no longer there, humans still make the strongest creation of all (Barzahl and Monarch's creations).

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 20:20 Profile Homepage #309
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense?
As long as he's giving the orders all creations will respect all other creations, so drakons and serviles work side by side. Understand now?
No. Are you assuming 'until' is a typo of 'under?'
quote:
drakons in general don't have a problem grasping or speaking English
Then why do they want their own language if it is only going to alienate their species further? They like being alienated, don't they? That's why they hide in the mountains. Their inability to adapt or even try to get along with others is one of their greatest weaknesses.
quote:
I think a lot of the negative things we so readily see in them are a reflection of badness in man.
I agree with this completely. And you know, what, maybe not all drakons are bad. But what makes humans superior is that the the crazy ones are the exception to the rule (Monarch), whereas for drakons, the sane, reasonable ones (Ghaldring?) are the exception.

[ Saturday, March 31, 2007 20:24: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 16:18 Profile Homepage #307
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

The drakons can't afford to mess up. They don't have the time or resources for that. Maybe they want to be more creative and maybe they don't, but they are practically forced to improve what they know already works since they can't afford the risk of the new creations failing them.
So they have all the time in the world to lounge around and argue with each other, but when it comes to making cutting edge new creations to help them win a war 'for their very survival,' they don't have time for it?

But really, you're coming at this with the wrong assumptions, the drakons do make mistakes, lots of them. Look at the dumping grounds Waylander pointed out earlier. They make tons of mistakes. Non-creative, really crappy mistakes. They have a lot more resources than you give them credit for, they just haven't produced anything near as good as the humans have with them.

Then there's the fact that the drakons do not care whether or not a creation can be controled. Imagine all the ideas the Shapers must come up with that have to be abandoned because they are uncontrollable (drayks and eyebeasts are a few that still exist today). The drakons, on the other hand, make things specifically for causing chaos, and yet the best they can do is bigger versions of existing creations? All the evidence says humans are better shapers. Much better.
quote:
Chorss: "Drakonsss! Servilesss! Together! Creationsss until my ordersss all respect other creationsss. Other drakonsss feel other. Not me."
Could someone please translate "creations until my orders all respect other creations" into something that makes sense? I'd like to know exactly what he is talking about before I say anything. If only drakons spoke better English, but no, their superiority complex forces them to make their own language, despite the confusion and tension between races this will inevitably create.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
LOST in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 15:41 Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

When it took off, they scrambled to make it into an endlessly ongoing story, which no longer has a coherent arc or purpose. It seems much like the X-Files in this regard.
It will probably end like X-Files as well, with 95% of the big mysteries still left unexplained even when it's all over.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
The Episodes: the poll in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 15:38 Profile Homepage #17
Clearly, the episode in which I launch a daring revolt against the establishment was the best. I was so close. Then I was slain in epic battle trying to save us all from that rat guy, only to be banned in thanks. No good deed goes unpunished.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
LOST in General
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Friday, March 30 2007 05:44 Profile Homepage #28
Pff, Lost. Rome is where the money is. Or, now that Rome is over for now, invest heavily in Tudors.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 19:11 Profile Homepage #286
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The new breed designed to spy is very smart. They are not banned.
I meant independant. And I'm pretty sure you knew that.
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

They'll condemn the Drakon's for displaying rather extreme behaviour, but turn a blind eye to that of the Shapers.
Here's your problem, your comparing drakons with a specific sect of humanity. Your saying the drakons are superior to humans, and so you must look at all humans. Everything I've said has been true of all drakons, but nothing you've said has been true of all humans.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Are Drakons superior beings? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 14:09 Profile Homepage #280
quote:
Originally written by jared:

i hope a shaper :D
I hope a shaper, too.

Stillness: Smart serviles are just as banned as drakons. Drakons allow humans to join the rebellion because humans are not single-minded. Humans are capable of seeing different sides of things, and comming to their own decisions. Hypothetically, if drakons were allowed to join the Shapers (in exchange for their loyalty they would be allowed to live out their life in peace), do you, in your opinion, think a single one would accept?

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
your favorite geneforge in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 14:02 Profile Homepage #1
Danette's geneforge was by far my favorite. You couldn't use the drakon geneforges without getting killed, and the rebel geneforge was just too weak.

*reads question again*

Oh... Geneforge 2. Most factions, best endings. And, of course, Barzahl.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
whitch is beter the story or the killing in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Emperor Tullegolar
Shaper
Member # 7420
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 14:00 Profile Homepage #3
Uhg, crap from the General forum is spreading to my Geneforge forum. You bastards.

Clearly, the game is superior. The funny thing is there are a lot of people who might say they play this game for the combat and stratagy, yet those same people no doubt complained that Avernum 4 didn't have a good plot. So really, no matter what they say, plot is more important.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00

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