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Originally written by Dikiyoba:

[then you're assuming too much.

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It's pretty clear anyone who step too far out of line is dead.

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the Shapers weren't at war prior to the Rebellion was due to the fact that they had already crushed all opposition.

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Originally written by E=MC Hammered:

I could send him $25 AU but I think that might be a lil bit useless to him.

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Originally written by Waylander:

It MUST have been the serviles, because I'm pretty sure that Drakons can't appreciate art.

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Ghaldring says he wants to protect the serviles with the Unbound?

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Originally written by Slarty:

A4 saw more whining and moaning and general uselessness.

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Originally written by Waylander:

Merely because a political system falls in shambles once there is a power struggle in no way demonstrates that it is 'non-complex'. In fact, I'd argue that such a trait shows considerable complexity.

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Great Britain's history has shown us time and time again that the country can't operate smoothly without a monarch at its head. Yet despite this, Great Britian had a highly complex political system, with a House of Commons and Lords.

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No. Wrong again. Ghaldring came to power because he won the popular support of the Drakons, and because of his political manueverings.

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The assertion that Ghaldring was very powerful does not equate to him being more powerful than Salassdar.

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Examples such as Cromwell and Hitler show that dictatorships can indeed have avery complex political structure.

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Merely calling someone's argument 'crap' doesn't amount to an effective rebuttal.

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You're denying that the Drakon's possess creativity. I responded by pointing out that they have made new creations, even if they are alterations of pre-existing creations. Whether they are more creative than humans is really subjective opinion.

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Me: Would you be kind enough to remind me of these 'numerous examples? [of Drakonian empathy]'
You: Nope.

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Which just demonstrates that the term 'genocide' doesn't apply to non-sapient species.

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If you think you can conduct an argument without using language, you're welcome to try.

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Originally written by Waylander:

1. I'd argue that the form of government we observe in the Drakonian society is an oligarchy.
2. You seem to imply that dictatorships aren't complex. How are democracies, oligarchies, or aristocracies more or less complex than a dictatorship?

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In the animal world, Caesar would be what we call an 'alpha male'. In the animal world, Cromwell would have been what we call an 'alpha male'.

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In the wild, the younger, stronger male usually becomes alpha male. However, in Drakonian society, we see the exact opposite. Ghaldring, a much older, wiser, and politically educated Drakon, is able to hold sway.

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Drakons don't duel because it is some sort of ingrained animalistic behaviour. They do so because they have a rigid code of honour, where it is proper to meet your opponent, one on one.

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The Takers and Drakons have invented numerous creation types. Once again, check out the Taker dumping grounds. And if you try to claim that they were all based on pre-existed models, I'd merely reply with the observation that so were the Wingbolt, Kyshakk and War Trall.

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I've put forward numerous examples which clearly demonstrate that Drakons do indeed feel empathy for others, which you have conveniently ignored.

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The Unbound aren't sapient.

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You might as well claim that chicken farming is genocide.

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Originally written by Waylander:

The Drakon's have a complex political structure, as observed in GF4. There are clear protocols (aka. Council meetings, and Greta mentioning that Drakon political procedure is very long-winded), there is a clear social ladder, and alliances form depending on the Drakonian's idealogy.

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A sense of honour. The Drakon's disapprove of Salassdar's attempted assassination, despite the fact that they despise humans.

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A sense of humour. This is observed in the Council Meeting, where the Drakons laugh at Salassdar's humiliation.

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The ability to be creative. I've pointed out time and time again that the Takers/Drakons have constructed numerous fantastic variations of existing creations, and were responsible for bringing the Gazer into being.

Emperor's response? "They haven't made as many new creations as the Shapers!" Given that the Drakon's have only been existence for a fraction of the time that the Shapers have, that isn't such a huge shock.

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Empathy for what they term as 'lesser species'. The Drakons as a species appear to have a maternal instinct to protect the serviles.

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A sense of justice. Drakons are able to recognize that killing a creature merely for the crime of existing is unjust.

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Originally written by Stillness:

A single-minded war machine cannot practice science. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true.

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PC: "You really plan to destroy all life on Terrestia?";
Ghaldring: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice."

This does not sound like a "single-minded machine" with "no depth."

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Originally written by Stillness:

If there was a quote that said something like, "You finally realize that all things considered, the drakons are only good for killing and hording," I would concede.

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I've also noticed that that kind of servile is nonexistant in this last one, as far as i can remember. Serviles are either obedient or rebellious.

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Neither you or Emp have proven such a thing. We've seen one or two Drakons who enjoy to hoard, whereas the rest seem pre-occupied with mounting a resistance against the Shapers.

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Someone: Drakons need to control everything.
Waylander: Unsupported nonsense.

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Originally written by BLACK HAZE.:

But if they cannot shape,and i have heard stories of Drayks creating the Drakons,how can they not shape?

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Originally written by Kelandon like, a million posts ago:

Let the moderators and experienced members do what they do.

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Originally written by Death Twisted:

Well, Tully's editor used the two destined-to-die prospectives in the first area, so it was either all-or-nothing at the start.

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Originally written by Stillness:

They are not violent for the sake of being violent. They are violent because their existence is banned by a very powerful foe. It's hard to pursue your dream of making beautiful sculptures while you're being hunted.

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Originally written by Waylander:

I have seen not one jot of sympathy from the humans in regards to the plight of the Drakons.

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It proves my point because even though not all humans are shapers, shapers are humans. It shows that humans are not superior.

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