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New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #125
What is it you want references for? To prove it's not alive? I never said it wasn't a living blob. Going back to the Ameba comment. I'm saying it is not “human” in the sense of now having, or ever having thoughts or feelings. You want me to prove it's not “human”, in the functional sense, not literal? This cannot be proven either way. Everyone has a different take one when life is truly instated. The only scientific test for this would be that of a heartbeat, brain waves, and reaction to stimuli. A first trimmest embryo has none of these.

If you try to look this stuff up all you get is a bunch of idealists debating on what is considered “life.” What you are saying is that is it a living thing, and yes like any blob of any kind of cell it is. Every debate on this involves morals, religion, ethics, and personal preference. Little is said about this that is strictly science. This is because this is more a human concept of right and wrong that it is of protecting the quality of life of the masses.

What it sounds like you want to do is put them into the world without a true care of what becomes of them after that. To say there should be government organization to fund the care of unwanted children is unrealistic.

Anti-choice people are always talking about what “should” be done to protect the potential lives, but there is currently no care available once the babies are born. What will happen to them? They will live their fist 18 years in some sort of childcare facility, (assuming there is space for them in the fist place.) and finally will be sent out into the world to fend for themselves having no parental guidance or love. This doesn't sound to me like it will build happy productive humans. You say, “at least they are alive”, the embryo was never conscious in the fist place; it didn't know it was alive.

Hospitals around here (I don't know about else ware) offer a “drop off, no questions asked program.” This has not ended abortion.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
High level scenarios? in Blades of Avernum
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #5
Right here
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
High level scenarios? in Blades of Avernum
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #1
There are several new scenarios in development, I'm sure some or most will be for higher levels.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Beta Call for The Darkness in Blades of Avernum
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #14
I was sleeping, that's why I was late :P
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Lightbulb in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #9
Some information about the history of the Light Bulb.

[ Saturday, March 26, 2005 10:11: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
No male agent graphic ? in Geneforge Series
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #10
I've never been called a nOOb before, not they have typed at least. I don't think I have ever directly referred to someone else as one either.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Help - A2 in The Avernum Trilogy
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #10
quote:
Originally written by saintofsword:

Are you sure it has anything with the gauntlets? They're uncursed and I like the protection it gives.
The gauntlets will defiantly make you sick after having the curse removed through the character editor. I did try that a long time ago and the made my player's hair fall out and feel sick. It's the uranium not the curse.

About the castle's money and other property. I haven't really needed to steal most of the time. In theory it's wrong to rob them, but in reality they don't use their positions or money.

[ Saturday, March 26, 2005 09:00: Message edited by: Dolphin ]
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Lightbulb in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #6
I knew someone would do this.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #118
Overwhelming- please read the earlier posts everyone has made so I don't have to repeat myself over and over.

quote:
But I liked your question: "Who determines what is right and wrong to do with one's own body?"
Just replace "one's own body" with "the pre-baby's body"
Twisting my words doesn't make your point, and “pre-baby” as in not a baby.

quote:
So, if someone drugs you, you wouldn't fear or feel pain, so it would be all right to kill you, right? Why do you think it's ok to kill life, if that life is in a stage of development where fear and pain are not developed? And we are talking about the initial stages of pregnancy, because in later stages there's pain, believe me. Read the "blob or baby?" article in the other topic. Maybe it will clear things out about this aspect.
This has already been said. Please refer to Thuryl's response to this, as he stated it quite nicely. Again if you read anything I write you would know I am commenting only on the fist trimester, and have said nothing about supporting later pregnancy abortions.

quote:
And it's better to be in orphanages and have a chance to have a successful life, no matter the difficulties, than denying that chance, by murdering the child.
\

This is arguable. Children who grow up in orphanages may or may not have good lives. It can cause severe psychological problems for children to feel unloved and unwanted. Murdering the child would be wrong, but we are not discussing an existent child. We are discussing the potential to one day be a child.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Undead Valley Testing Version 9 in Blades of Avernum
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #15
I finished it, more or less. It has potential and obviously took a lot of work.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
How Many Forum Users does it take to change a Lightbulb? in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #5
:P
Very nice, animated FAQ

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #106
An embryo, mind you I mean in the fist trimmest. It is blob of cells that has yet to become a hand, heart, or brain. Women's bodies reject very early embryos organically for several reasons.

It is the earliest stages; life is not yet a guarantee even by nature's standards. To me what is life? Bacteria are alive, as are ameba. It is seen as something different simply for being human. Thus to make this blob of cells more than just that, it must be defined as human.

What is a human to me? Human is not necessarily a term simply for having the DNA of the species. Back to skin, they are human skin cells, just as it is a human embryo. Once a fetus has a nervous system, a beating heart, a brain, even organs it is “alive” in the human sense. It has functioning systems of digestion, blood flow, and sensations are perceived.

Just as shedding the ovum and uterine lining every month is not preventing life, neither is aborting what has not yet become to protect that life of the potential mother. Be it body or soul.

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 21:02: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Female Guardian Graphics? in Geneforge Series
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #5
The Agent is distinctly female and the Guardian distinctly male, but I felt okay playing either. It would be nice to have an option, but it doesn't bother me.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #101
Very well, I am able to respect how you feel. I understand that you feel an embryo to be a baby. I respect your religion and your right to defend what you claim to be life.

This being said there is little need for further debate. You are set in your way to “protect” what will be, and I and others seem to disagree with your “morals.” What can more come of this? You can convince me no more than I can convince you.

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 19:50: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
A couple of pro-life articles in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #11
According to what you posted above it is the same process.

Please don't misinterpret my stand on this. I am female, and will be a mother in my lifetime. I value life very greatly. My pets have had several litters of babies, and I love them all. I buried the couple that were still born. If I find a bug in the house I put it outside.

I do not feel that a 2-moth old embryo is a functional human, or even truly “alive.”

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 18:48: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #97
quote:
I'm going to describe a similar situation to what you just did. Suppose a woman is living in her house on a freezing night, when a man breaks in, beats her into submission, and ransacks the house, stealing or destroying anything valuable. She crawls to her room and there discovers a newborn baby. Ignoring social services for the sake of the argument, she has two choices. She can take care of it, sacrificing her own needs for the sake of the child, or she can throw it out on the street where it will freeze to death.
Legal? Maybe. Moral? No.
Once again, you constantly compare a conscious, breathing, creature that feels fear and pain to an embryo that has no brain. Making the same point several times in several ways doesn't make it any different. It's still inaccurate.

quote:
So if you are drugged up on morphine and unable to feel fear or pain, then killing you is not equivalent to murder?
You don't seem to understand the difference between what is and what will be. An embryo is not yet “alive”; it is in the process of becoming alive. It has never had a brain or consciousness. I don't like the idea of abortions after the first trimester unless medically necessary. You try to make it sound like we are supporting baby killing, and this is not the case. The anti-choice people like to use words like “baby”, call it what it is, an “embryo.”

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Help - A2 in The Avernum Trilogy
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #2
I have never looted the castle's treasury, so I had to do so to find out. My players did not get sick from that. I agree it sounds like you got the Dread Curse.

Double check your inventory for items that are cursed, also certain items will cause radiation poisoning.

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 16:49: Message edited by: Dolphin ]
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
A couple of pro-life articles in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #9
Okay, fist of all staring a second topic for this was unnecessary. One is sufficient.

Second, I will not read any religious references you post. I do not follow your God, or the doctrine that accompanies it.

As for the embryo, the argument of the mother's immune system potentially attacking it, thus making it an individual is also invalid. Have you ever heard of an autoimmune disease? The body can “attack” its own healthy cells or glands. Is my thyroid a person too?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #90
Creator, Overwhelming, The majority of what you are saying is not scientifically grounded. You speak of your own “morals.” Who determines what is right and wrong to do with one's own body?

Abortion is not equivalent to murder. An unconscious blob of cells feels no fear or pain. This is more a matter of controlling others than preserving life. You want to save lives? Adopt a child from an impoverished country. Give to charities, orphanages, or homeless shelters. Especially orphanages since you plan on filling them with unwanted children.

There is no end in sight to this discussion, and neither side sees the other's view. I suggest you two find a couple of nice submissive women who will not question you imposing your will on how they should live.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #60
That is interesting. A fertile chicken egg would be born a chicken had I have not eaten it. There are those who would tell you killing and eating animals is murder, so just like the early stage a fetus it is personal opinion.

A baby is half its mother's and half its father's DNA, and that of the ancestors. It has no DNA of its own.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
New Abortion Laws in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #58
quote:
I agree that using a penis to define individuality was poorly chosen. The unique DNA of the foetus would have been better. And you don't have to be conscious to be a person. After all, you don't stop being a person when you're asleep.
Consciousness while in dream state is arguable. If one were unconscious they would not remember their dreams. I for one remember several dreams, and they can be quite lifelike.

The issue I have with this is that the references show that there is physical “life.” I am not denying that. There is life, but it is that of the mother. Fetuses can't live in test tubes, they are not independent life forms in any sense.

Are they people?, what is a person? Are my blood cells people?, they are living things as much as a fetus in the first trimmest. They have no consciousness, they need nutrition to survive, and they are living in my body. I know this is crude comparison to a fetus, but this is the claim that is made, if it is fertilized it's alive. If I eat fertile chicken eggs is that murder?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
i am bored: discuss in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #3
Could you have opened a bigger can of spam?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
¿Newbie? in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #3
Welcome, but yeah you people will get to know you by your posts, so many noobs these days.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
An ACTUAL G3 Related Question in Geneforge Series
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #10
Hmm, having withdrawal from something that dose not yet exist.

When it finally dose come out every one will download it simultaneously :P
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Karma - No not that kind in General
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #22
If you think about how often animals do conscious deeds that show compassion or selflessness it would take a long time to build up enough good karma to be born as a human.

Humans who do certain things can be born into lower realms. Hell beings, hungry ghosts, and animals are lower realms. There are higher forms than humans. Some call them angels, spirits, or ethereal beings. That may be more than I should get into, as that is more in depth than the concept of karma. This also gets into more spiritual beliefs than some follow.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00

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