New Abortion Laws
Pages
| Author | Topic: New Abortion Laws |
|---|---|
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Wednesday, March 23 2005 01:28
Profile
Homepage
Xan - it was vulgar in nature and seemed to be communication intended to threaten/harass. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
BoE Posse
Member # 112
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 00:53
Profile
After a fair bit of searching around I found this article. It gives a great overveiw of the whole pro-life position. I just wish it went into more detail on whether a foetus is a person. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2476
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 02:27
Profile
Creator, if you successfully prohibit abortion, the only outcome will be this: your girlfriends and wives won't tell you when they get pregnant as long as they haven't decided themselves, if they want the child or not. They will handle the issue silently. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 06:40
Profile
The author states, Quote: “an unborn child can have a penis and women don't have penises. That is proof that there is a separate individual human being involved” And in the next paragraph, Quote: “Does the dentist become part of the woman's body when he sticks his hand in her mouth to do her teeth?” These are ridiculous statements. A fetus is dependent on its mother for life. It could not sustain life on its own until the third trimester. To compare it to a dentist with his hands in one's mouth is hardly accurate. To claim a penis as a sign of individuality is equally amusing. Last time I heard a one-month fetus doesn't yet have a penis. That is not a brain or a sign of consciousness anyways. Creator, that entire article is one man's personal ranting. He offers no information on the development of the fetus. He speaks about the killing of abortion doctors, and makes claims that “pro-lifers” had nothing to do with it, who else would do that? If you were going to make anti-choice claims it would help to provide credible references that offer science rather than opinion. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 08:13
Profile
Homepage
quote:Well for some, it's the only brain they have...[/off-topic joke] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 3530
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 10:35
Profile
I think it should only be done if a girl/lady is raped, OR within in no longer then a week from the time she finds out shes pregnat; also not longer then two-and-a-half months into it the pregnacy. Posts: 79 | Registered: Tuesday, October 7 2003 07:00 |
|
BoE Posse
Member # 112
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 21:45
Profile
quote:I refer you to this section of the article I just linked to: If abortion is made illegal it doesn't force women to do anything except allow their children to live. That's all. There are plenty of alternatives to choose from if you are really interested in choice, some of which are actually financed liberally by the government. Furthermore, why is it someone else's fault if you hurt yourself in the process of killing another innocent human being? quote:The statement you are referring was intended to demonstrate that location does not change what you are. As to the ability to survive outside the womb... The dentist is as dependant on his environment for survival as is the foetus or an astronaut. And even after it is born the child can't survive by itself for several more years. quote:I agree that using a penis to define individuality was poorly chosen. The unique DNA of the foetus would have been better. And you don't have to be conscious to be a person. After all, you don't stop being a person when you're asleep. quote:Someone who is anti-abortion but not pro-life. Pro-lifers belive the intentional killing of a human being is wrong (hence their stance on abortion) and would therefore be against the murder of abortionists. quote:Agreed. Here you go. The last two may have some overlap. Italianhitman, would you care to tell us why you belive that? [ Thursday, March 24, 2005 22:00: Message edited by: The Creator ] Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 21:56
Profile
Homepage
quote:Astronaut. Also, environment. Also, referring. Sorry, I can't help it. :P -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 22:18
Profile
quote:Consciousness while in dream state is arguable. If one were unconscious they would not remember their dreams. I for one remember several dreams, and they can be quite lifelike. The issue I have with this is that the references show that there is physical “life.” I am not denying that. There is life, but it is that of the mother. Fetuses can't live in test tubes, they are not independent life forms in any sense. Are they people?, what is a person? Are my blood cells people?, they are living things as much as a fetus in the first trimmest. They have no consciousness, they need nutrition to survive, and they are living in my body. I know this is crude comparison to a fetus, but this is the claim that is made, if it is fertilized it's alive. If I eat fertile chicken eggs is that murder? -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 22:34
Profile
Homepage
quote:Okay. What about drugging them up with morphine? quote:I can't live in a test tube either. :P Being able to live without support does not define you as an individual. Having your own DNA would probably be a better measure. quote:Of course eating a fertile chicken egg isn't murder, any more than eating a chicken is murder. Your blood cells are a part of you. They have your DNA. A baby is not - it relies on the mother for life, but is still an individual. That's the way I see it. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 22:49
Profile
That is interesting. A fertile chicken egg would be born a chicken had I have not eaten it. There are those who would tell you killing and eating animals is murder, so just like the early stage a fetus it is personal opinion. A baby is half its mother's and half its father's DNA, and that of the ancestors. It has no DNA of its own. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 22:57
Profile
Homepage
quote:It seems to me that this rather misses the point. Surely, acting morally is about what you, personally, can in fact do (including what you can in fact do to change the behaviour of others) rather than about what you want others to do. And therefore, isn't it fair to say that you have to take responsibility for all the reasonably foreseeable consequences of your own actions, including those that resulted from the enactment of a law you supported? To put it briefly, it may not always be moral to attempt to force others to act morally. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 23:00
Profile
Homepage
quote:You can't live without food or water either. If you give those to an infant child (albeit special food for a newborn, perhaps), it can survive fairly decently. A fetus, on the other hand, probably wouldn't make it. quote:I am of the opinion that it is not good policy to make a law banning something just because one disapproves of it. One should make a law banning something because that law will have a positive effect in the world. As I said before in this topic, the argument goes that it is a choice between an aborted fetus and a live woman or an aborted fetus and a dead woman. quote:I am aware of exactly one: adoption. If finishing the entire pregnancy would be as devastating to the woman's life as having the child and raising it (i.e., we're talking about a fourteen-year-old who really ought to be in school and a nine month break would set her back rather far in the educational world), then this is hardly an equivalent substitute. Adoption has its problems, too, although it is a good solution in some cases. Adopted kid syndrome is certainly a problem in some cases. I am not aware of other alternatives, but please post them if you know of them. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 23:01
Profile
Homepage
quote:Interesting you should bring this up. In a funny piece of synchronicity, that creation/evolution article you linked to on the other thread mentions that due to a process of rapid mutation, the B lymphocytes of the immune system have significantly different DNA sequences from the rest of the body's cells (and from each other). I assume this doesn't mean you're about to start campaigning to give B lymphocytes the right to vote. In fact, the "unique DNA" standard is even curlier than that; by the time you reach adulthood, virtually all the cells in your body will have accumulated mutations and DNA damage sufficient to make each of them subtly different from every other. Obviously, your cells aren't all separate people, so unique DNA alone won't wash as a standard for individual personhood. [ Friday, March 25, 2005 00:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 23:06
Profile
Homepage
quote:Offhand, I can think of two: contraceptives and morning-after drugs. Both of which, naturally, the pro-life lobby likes attacking as well, for whatever reason. [ Thursday, March 24, 2005 23:06: Message edited by: Bad-Ass Mother Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 23:21
Profile
Homepage
I was assuming we were talking, Alec, about already existing unwanted pregnancies. I am debating whether you were unclear on this or whether you just wanted to take a cheap shot at conservatives. [ Thursday, March 24, 2005 23:23: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Thursday, March 24 2005 23:47
Profile
Homepage
Morning-afters end existing pregnancies, and it's rather difficult to argue that an eight-celled organism represents anything like human life. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 00:04
Profile
Homepage
Depends on your definition of a pregnancy. I'd say that morning-afters still fall under the category of prevention. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 00:07
Profile
Homepage
For one thing, they're used at a point when you don't actually know whether you're pregnant or not yet. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 01:52
Profile
Homepage
Thuryl wrote: quote:Very precise analysis, imho. I still feel we should try our best to avoid partial birth abortions even though I accept that a simplistic law is probably some unsuitable means. I do not believe that the question of when human life begins can be decided in some unequivocal manner that does not involve some debatable definition. However we respect each other and ourselves according to how much respect we show for life and human life in particular - at least in Old Europe where we are still reeling from the holocaust impression - and I feel we should find ways to extend solidarity to pregnant women enabling them to end their pregancy early or give birth. The error is the simplistic thinking that passing a law and possibly prosecuting women who abort would solve the problem. We need to take care of the whole complex of the unwanted pregnancy, i.e. provide day care, decent public education, etc. I am sorry if that means to throw tax money at the problem, but talking about the morals of abortion without putting the money where one's mouth is is plain hypocrisy. [ Friday, March 25, 2005 01:56: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2476
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 02:20
Profile
quote:Alec has a point, though. Following the argument that human life begins at contraception and that a fertilized human egg is sacrosant and has to be protected by all means, morning after drugs would have to be prohibited. It is a small step from there to banning all contraception, arguing that the prevention of pregnancy denies a potential fetus' right to live. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 04:21
Profile
Homepage
quote:And it's a small step from there to banning people from not having sex. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 4637
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 04:42
Profile
Homepage
quote:This doesn't give the right to dispose of the fetus life at your will. Just because someone dependes on you to live, doesn't mean you have the right or moral right to kill that person. BTW, take a look to the "Abortion argument unravels" article in the other topic, created by me. I think you'll find it interesting. ;) @All: I've found this article nice. Here's an excerpt: quote:Read also the "Blob or Baby?" topic. [ Friday, March 25, 2005 07:43: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
|
BoE Posse
Member # 112
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 05:45
Profile
quote: quote:Only 3% of abortions are done for the health of the mother. This is about the majority of abortions which are done for convenience. from another article on that site: Let me ask you a question. Are you against slavery? Do you believe that the issue of slavery is a moral position? Are laws legislating that particular moral position appropriate? What you've said is that it's appropriate to legislate certain moral issues and that you'd be in favor of that. The economic issue would actually be on the side of the South because slavery is what propped up the economic system of the South. When slaves were emancipated it gutted them of their economic force. Let's remove the economic argument. Based solely on morality, are you willing to say that the moral issue of slavery should be enforced simply as a moral issue? This is a very important point. Many people have offered the objection that we should not force a particular morality in the issue of abortion. My questions are very pointed and leading, and they were simply to make the point that virtually everybody who makes that kind of objection actually does believe that there are cases in which morality should be legislated. We talked about the obvious issue of slavery because there is the human rights issue that is at stake. BTW in your example I would not be forcing the woman to act morally. If she were acting morally, she wouldn't be going to the back alley abortionist. But maybe I missed your point. Maybe you meant that by making abortions illegal it will in fact make things worse, so I sould be satisfied with the status quo. If abortion is illegal far fewer women will have abortions. As a result the amount of death and injury will be far less than the 1.4 million children killed in America anually. quote:Lets say that one day we developed the technology to grow humans in vats. Would that mean that embryos were human all of a sudden? That a foetus needs a special environment in which to live does not mean they are not a person. A person might have an accident and require the special environment of life support in a hospital in order to survive. Does that mean they aren't people anymore? quote:Substitute for what? Murder? If a woman has sex, they risk getting pregnant (though a fouteen-year-old shouldn't be yet). That is their choice. Freedom means making choices and then taking responsibility for the concequences of those choices. Once pregnant they may choose either to raise the child or to put it out for adoption. They do not have the right to kill their child. Even in the case of rape (where there is no choice), the fact that the mother was brutally assaulted does not give her the right to then go and harm an innocent third party (i.e. the child). It's not the child's fault that it's mother was raped. quote:We weren't using it as a standard for pesonhood, just individuality. It is an organism that has different DNA than any part of it's mother's body. Therefore it is an unique organism. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Friday, March 25 2005 06:54
Profile
Homepage
quote:Protect bacteria. Stop antibiotics and medical care. Sorry for that... -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
