New Abortion Laws
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:20
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quote:Slavery created an incredible number of political-agency problems, was economically inefficient in the long run, and so forth. Moralistics weren't the only reason to outlaw it. Slavery is far more brutal than abortion even if you're taking that absurd life-begins-at-conception tack. The embryo isn't old enough to take it personally. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:20
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We really don't need multiple topics about the same discussion. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:25
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quote:Again, this is a tragic, horrible situation. But if I am forced to choose between the emotional health of a woman and the the life of a child, there is only one choice I can see as acceptable. She has to pay the price, until the child is born at least, because **** happens. It's a bad circumstance, but one that can't be fixed without hurting someone. I wish it wasn't that way, and I think the mother should be given help to cope, to make it as bearable as possible. Leaving aside the morality of suicide/euthanasia, I think the woman should wait until after she's given birth. On the other hand, who's going to punish her if she kills herself? But from a moral perspective, I'd see it more or less the same as deliberately crashing your car with a kid in the back seat. Please don't think I'm being callous. I have sympathy for both parties, it's just that the child has more to lose. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:26
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quote:I don't know what the situation is in Portugal, but in the United States, it's just as illegal to hire someone to kill someone else as it is to kill them yourself. It's called consipiracy to commit murder, and the person hiring the hitman gets punished just as harshly as the hitman. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:42
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In a society you can agree with, Ash Lael, the rate of suicide in women will be high. And no, they will not wait, until the child is born. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 15:04
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quote:Well, I'll leave that issue aside. I still find it hard to believe that you actually think laws should only be made for the public good (whatever that actually is) rather than moral reasons. Should we stop spending tax dollars trying to rehabilitate victims of brain damage? Should we pay disability support pensions? Heck, should we pay pensions of any sort? quote:I don't think this is the case. Do you have any numbers to back this up (say, from countries where abortion is illegal), or is it just based on your own feelings? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 15:25
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Even in countries where abortion is illegal, rape is one of the exceptions from the rule. I work with women who, after delivery, want to kill themselves and their child. So I know a bit about this situation. I think the rate of suicides would go up, because the women would not know why they should honour the life of the child, when their own life is not honoured. You will argue that the woman's physical life is not threatened. But that is not what she primarily identifies with. A woman identifies with what she feels. If she says 'I', she refers to a 'feeling of me', not to what she thinks about herself or life in general. When her emotion and feeling do not count, then she does not count. And in a traumatic situation, as rape is, when her feeling does not count, she might as well be dead; she feels extinguished. You may not wish to accept this, that is of course your prerogative. Nevertheless, it's true. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 16:14
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_depression I imagine it would be worsened if the woman were already in a state of depression or trauma due to being raped. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 23:03
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ef, I'm sure I know at least half a dozen women who would disagree with your massive generalisations about women. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Monday, March 28 2005 01:01
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Sex education in any form, no matter how good it is, will not prevent sex. Only easier access to contraception will reduce pregnancies. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Monday, March 28 2005 01:27
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Well, without education, contraceptives aren't much good. Both are necessary. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Monday, March 28 2005 08:29
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quote:If this is the only type of women you work with it is no wonder this is the view you hold. I would argue though that only those women who DO refer to themselves thourough only their feelings would be suicidal is such a situation. I cannot see myself as being suicidal after a rape, or after giving birth to my rapist's child. As I see a child as a gift from God, I would rather view the baby as extra special because of the extra-ordinary circumstances of it's birth. Whether or not I'd choose to raise the child myself or give it up for adoption would depend on current circumstances. Of course I left my sanity at the door a long time ago so who is to say if I am typical or not. ;) [ Monday, March 28, 2005 08:30: Message edited by: Jewels of the Forest ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, March 28 2005 13:38
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I am interested in knowing what, precisely, you'd expect to feel after being raped. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, March 29 2005 12:45
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Well, from what I know of myself, I'd expect to be angry at the guy more then anything else. And if he didn't kill me when he was done, I'd be one to march myself right down to the police station, file a report, and get a medical examination for any evidence the creep left behind. If I knew he intended to kill me I'd probably be afraid, but I wouldn't go down without a fight. I'd do what I could to get evidence of him on me (skin under the fingernails or some of his hair) so that if he did kill me there'd be a better chance he'd get caught. Who knows for sure unless it happens, though? -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Tuesday, March 29 2005 13:35
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I was raped once, twenty years ago. What I felt was first humiliation and disappointment about the cruelty of life. I was not fighting because he was about six feet tall and bulky and it would have become rather bloody and painful for me. But I raped him back. He was such surprised: his virility instantly disappeared. Somehow I won that "game". Well, I was lucky that he didn't hit me out of frustration, but he let me go then and fled. I thougth also that this might have been his first rape and that he maybe won't do it again because of his pitiful failure ^_^ And for the topic: Of course must abortion be legal. It's still our womb, guys. Male politicians should just keep out of that theme. -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, March 29 2005 18:33
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Also: If I got pregnant from it, I know I would not blame the child. It had less choice in being concieved then I had in getting raped. I may not want to raise the baby myself, but I'd let it live. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, March 29 2005 20:16
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quote:I have such trouble understanding this point of view. Assuming that the fetus is indeed a living human being (and if it isn't, there is no point arguing against abortion), then its rights overrule such complaints, surely? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Tuesday, March 29 2005 23:07
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I do not share your view that a fetus is a living human being, at least not in the first trimester which is where most abortions occur in my country. But though I can accept that you have a different view, I still feel troubled by your disregard of the psychological state of traumatized women and their ability to cope with it. I do not wish to talk about clients, that does not feel right and is unneccessary over here, as almost every town's and city's website has a page about rape and its consequences, all giving the more or less same statistics and information. But that is in german. So I've been looking for something in english and came upon the site of medica mondiale, a german organisation that was originally founded to help and support bosnian women after the mass rapes of the serbian army. Though they deal with rape and war, the basic information on trauma is equally valid for women in peace times. Reading the site has made me aware that my own emotional approach to 'pregnancy after rape' is deeply though unconsciuosly influenced by the reports of my mother's generation of the mass rapes of the russian army at the end of and after WWII. I talked with my sister-in-law who is from former Yugoslavia and see the same thing happening to her. It's women who pass on the memories to their daughters who pass them on to theirs for a long, long time. medica mondiale -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5627
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 00:51
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This topic is getting awfully close to Godwin's Law... but I'll throw in my two small units of currency. I am pro-choice, just to get that set in stone to start with. For those that want to stop abortion, you can't. You might shut down (or explode, for the more extreme of you) the clinics, you might criminalise the alleyway abortions, but people will still get them, only instead of sterilised equipment there'd be a bent piece of wire or something equally ghastly. Even if you force someone to give birth to a child they don't want, the fact that they are out of the womb won't suddenly mean they are keen to take care of it. Besides, the only people that would be present at an illegal abortion would be the aborter and the pregnant woman. The pregnant woman was the one that sought out the aborter, so probably wouldn't dob him in, because the pro-lifers have made her a criminal now. The aborter wouldn't dob himself in. The only way it'll reach the authorities is if the woman dies and you somehow track down the aborter. If that's your best-case scenario, you need to re-think things. For those of you who are arguing based on their religion, chill. The fetus is bouncing around happily in whatever afterlife you have, and the people that aborted it are having their souls go slam-bang into the big cludgie in the sky - if it turns out you're right about it all. And no, I'm not trivialising your religion. The next point the pro-lifers are using - the fetus is alive. Look at it squirm, it must be alive! Well, so's a mouse, and you aren't complaining about mouse poison and exterminators (at least, I hope not). You just coughed? Well, you just spat out a few million bits of bacteria, complete with unique genetic code and life. They're going to die now! How could you? Murderer! Blow up the kleenex factories! If you get around that by saying it's going to be alive some day, well lookie here, there's all these girls going around with eggs going unfertilised! Why not take it to extremes and make pregnancy mandatory once every nine months. Take it even further, and anyone that goes near microwaves or doesn't air their naughty bits periodically might be killing off their sexual reproduction cells! How dare they? Murderers! Blow up the tight-and-restrictive underwear factories! Okay, it may have gotten a bit stupid at points in the above arguements, but if taken to extremes that is where your arguements are going. My POV on abortion is this: It's the difference between instinct and thought that distinguishes things. The point where a brain stops being somewhere for the instincts to run things from and starts being where the person that moves the arms and legs hangs out. Find out when a fetus reaches that point and draw the line there. Before it it's a fetus, after it it's a baby. There may be a few bits wrong with that POV, but I'm young. I can fine-tune it. Posts: 14 | Registered: Friday, March 25 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 13:11
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quote:I don't mean to sound as if I disregard it, but the simple fact is that I believe one person's life is more important than another person's emotional and psychological wellbeing. If we want to help women cope with such problems - and we should - we should do it through means other than abortion. It's my opinion that the question of whether a fetus is an actual living child or not is the one that we should be debating. Tehan - Your strawman arguments are insulting and stupid. Surely you accept that there is a world of difference between human life and any life? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 14:42
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I know I don't. But although I certainly don't enjoy doing so, I'm willing to occasionally set traps for and kill mice in order to continue living in my home in any semblance of comfort. Just as I'm grudgingly willing to allow women to have first-trimester abortions done. I respect and treasure life in all of its forms, but in certain situations destroying precious life becomes necessary. As others have mentioned, the only way to completely eliminate abortion is to solve the serious socioeconomic problems that lead women to seek abortions out in the first place. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 18:33
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quote:What is 'human' life? When you answered my post, you said that 'life' is more important than a person's emotional/psychological 'wellbeing'. So what I see as a person's emotional/psychological 'life' to you is comparable to the dressing on a cake, nice to have, but not neccessary. That does not make sense to me. If I understand you right, you define 'human life' as biological activity of human cells. This and only this is 'life' and worthy of protection. I'd like to protest. What makes me distinctly human is more than that. You can argue that feeling and thinking are merely biological processes of the brain. But then you will have to give up on religion. Any conception of God implies consciousness on a nonphysical level, as an energy per se. The 'world of difference' between 'human' life and 'any' life is in the genetic make-up that in a human allows a far complexer degree of differentiated feeling/thinking consciousness than in this planet's other life-forms. On this we probably agree. But if we agree, then the emotional/mental state of a being is of far graver importance than you'd like to acknowledge. And if you are religious it is of essential importance, as it is your means of awareness of a relationship with your creator, in thinking and feeling. A clump of cells does have 'life', but on a pretty undifferentiated level. On that level, 'human' (as I understand that word) is an adjective that can be applied only as a potential, a latent, non-manifested possibility, waiting to come into manifestation. I do not yet understand why this potential in its fully manifested state (the adult woman) is subordinate to its state of latency (the embryo). -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5627
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 18:49
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quote:Because we're human, we're better than anything else on this planet? 'fraid I don't see eye to eye with you on that level. What exactly makes a human life better than any other type of life? Posts: 14 | Registered: Friday, March 25 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 19:02
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We have a soul. We can go against our survival instinct to help others in danger. Reasoning. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, March 30 2005 19:53
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quote:Please don't misunderstand me. Psychological wellbeing/mental health/whatever you choose to call it is of great importance. So is physical health. But if I have to choose between one person losing an arm and another person dying, someone is going to lose an arm. You can live without an arm, or possibly even have it surgically reattached. It's possible for psychological scars to heal. Death is irreversible. It's not that I consider the child to be of more value than the mother, it's just that it's a choice between damaging and destroying. Damaging is bad, no argument. But efforts made to fix/prevent it - and they should be made - should not include destroying. As for what makes us "human", we could discuss this at great length, but for now I'll just say that I think that if there is any doubt over whether someone/something is indeed "human", it should be allowed to live. Better safe than sorry. Tehan - Okay. You see no difference between human life and other life. You also see nothing wrong with killing mice or bacteria, going by your earlier post. Do you see anything wrong with killing a random stranger on the street? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
