New Abortion Laws
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, March 21 2005 23:02
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quote:Half of abortions are initiated by women who didn't do anything to stop getting pregnant. I said as much. That is a misinterpretation. It was deliberate that time. Stop doing that. quote:Didn't we just lock horns on a euthanasia topic? Does this weird you out as much as it does me?quote:So because our technology isn't good enought to keep it alive, it wasn't really alive in the first place? Terminal cancer patients must love you. Okay, the latter part is much more important than the former. Some day, it'll be technologically feasible to create a healthy baby with no human interaction at all. Will that make leaving an egg unfertilized murder? No, because eggs don't have any capacities that make us human. Same goes for second-trimester fetuses. It's a strictly moralistic issue, and we have something called separation of church and state for that. That makes legislation on it inappropriate in almost all circumstances, making it a matter of personal choice. quote:Did you actually look at that list of reasons? The majority of abortions aren't done because of medical or economic necessity. And even if they can't afford it, they could still put it up for adoption.[/QB][/quote]No, those are reasons for regular abortions, including first-trimester ones. PBAs are an entirely different kind, which are far more sensationally violent and usually occur at a later stage of pregnancy. That's another one of those lovely deliberate misinterpretations. Are you drunk or something? You're usually militantly wrong, but deliberately screwing up the facts is a new one from you, and I'm disappointed. [ Monday, March 21, 2005 23:04: Message edited by: Bad-Ass Mother Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, March 21 2005 23:19
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I think what that person was trying to say, and failed to do so, was that those pregnancies occurred for people who weren't trying to use contraception at the time of the conception -- not that they don't regularly, which is the normal meaning of that present-tense verb, or never have, which is a reasonable secondary meaning, but that in one instance they were not. I say this based on what it was contrasted with -- that half of the people were attempting to use contraception and failed at the time of the conception. That statistic may be right, but the way it was stated above is misleading and wrong. EDIT: And the fact that we have to debate what it refers to also suggests to me that it is misleading and bad. [ Monday, March 21, 2005 23:21: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Monday, March 21 2005 23:19
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It wasn't a deliberate misinterpetation, it was an inability to understand your reply. I only figured out what you were saying when I read Thuryl's rephrasing of it. And my brother has always been the one that you've debated with most. Did you see the edit? [ Monday, March 21, 2005 23:20: Message edited by: The Creator ] -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Monday, March 21 2005 23:32
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The discusssion might benefit from seperating 1. present contraceptive and surgical practices 2. emotional and moral issues 3. legal issues and effects of well-meant laws 4. what can we do to achieve common goal. It is a fact hat present US-government sponsored sex education programs proposing abstinence and neglecting info on contraception lead to some delay in premarital sex and decline in contraceptive measures. Rates of teenage pregnancy and abortions are therefor very high in the US and increasing. The experience with stringent abortion laws has shown that they lead to secret coat-hanger abortions for the poor and abortion tourism for those who can afford it - and some window-dressing in statistics. None of us sees this as a worthwhile goal in itself. One can only speculate what the unstated motives are for outlawing abortions and effectively increasing unwanted pregancies. Wishful thinking, self-righteousness, social control over female reproductive powers, etc. Be it whatever, I do not se any moral value in this combination. Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 03:29
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Before the age of six months, the brains of the fetus are entirely inactive. After then, the fetus slowly gains consciousness. When it is born, it still is far from conscious. Thus, I see no reason why this new abortion law is so nonsensical. Abortion isn't destroying one's life, but not granting it. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 03:30: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 05:40
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Abstinence education is nonsense it promotes -- sexual disease because sex which does not cause pregnancy is the riskiest kind of sex. Thus when this is promoted we get nice doses of AIDS and other diseases. Article here The morality of no sex until marriage may sound good; but in practice it is not very realistic. Some people do not get married until they are in their 30s. It seems a lot of morality has lost all common sense when it comes to sexual and pregnancy issues. Historically, the way unwanted children were dealt with in the middle ages was to abandon them by the road sides or drown them. Very few were ever adopted. The idea that somehow we are going to adopt all the kids from unwanted pregnancies is preposterous. In the United States most people who get put up for adoption don't get adopted. What makes this further a problem is that the kids are very likely to become criminals or dangerous-- I think it is something like 30% of kids in the foster system become criminals. Make birth control more available and acceptable. That is the first step. I have no problem with offering free tubal ligations for people who do not want kids. I think people who use abortion as their only method of birth control should be offered to have their tubes tied. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 05:56
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I think what the gist of these abortion statistics do is make a strong case for education regarding and the use of contraceptive measures. I don't have a source but I remember reading in more than one place that the majority of abortions in the U.S. occur in the "red states" in the U.S., where (in theory) moral values matter more. "Abstinence only" education fails, helping to foster the very practices these conservative grandstanders condemn. Can't face the shame though, oh no - gotta hide it! The reality is though that it's likely everyone has or will have sex before marriage if they can help it, vow to abstain or no - the difference in premarital sex rates between "promise keepers" and other individuals is statistically insignificant. Am I on my "blue state" high horse? Yes I am. :) Seriously though, when people blind themselves to reality, they aren't helping anyone. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:11
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EDIT: I sag and have been punished thusly for my low saggotry. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 15:04: Message edited by: Xan Kreigor ] -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:22
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wow -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:29
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quote:Should we include links showing the result of gang warfare, murder scenes, or other effects on people of assault-style weapons? Generally the same pro-life crowd that spreads such images is against gun control. Figure that one out. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:47: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:45
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Andrew, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be in trouble for one of those pics. Let us leave the other stuff to the imagination. I must say though, I'm all for gun control, but to an extent. Guns should NOT be banned altogether, but tighter restrictions, should be enforced. A recent gun ban, was enforced in England (I think), and crime ROSE. Primarily, in burglaries, robberies and muggings, because the criminals knew, that the good citizens didn't have any serious weapons on them. I'm getting a bit off topic here, sorry. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:50: Message edited by: Xan Kreigor ] -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:50
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quote:What a wonderful contribution to this discussion. I am completely convinced of your point now. Jesus has saved me. :rolleyes: [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:48: Message edited by: Imban ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 11:53
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quote:That's the sort of logic that also makes the case for education about and use of contraception, i.e., because contraception is available and people are educated about it, the need for abortions is reduced. :) [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:56: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3004
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 12:24
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I have several different points to add. Responding and adding to Andrew Miller: I don't have a source for the number of abortions, but I do have them for STDs in the South, where abstinence education was taught long before the federal legislation and continues to be more likely to be taught. CDC Maps If you look at the maps by county of Chlamydia and Gonorrhea (in particular), the point is made clearly. NC, SC, Georgia, Arkansas, Mississippi, Missouri, Louisianna all have county after county with high rates. It certainly show the effect of the type of sex ed (Abstinence vs. comprehensive). However, on the subject of abortion--everyone pro-life group I'm aware of (certainly the ones that get attention) also objects to comprehensive sex education. On the subject of what Lord Baron von Toast said about offering free tubal ligations: here's a major intersection of issues of reproductive rights and race. I'm speaking of the United States, because that's what I know the most about. Tubal ligations were indeed given free to many women until around 1975--without consent, without knowledge, and also coerced (as a condition for getting a job, or getting government aid). The woman getting tubal ligations? African Americans, Puerto Ricans, Mexican Americans, etc. Also when the pill first became avaliable it was indeed offered freely--many African American women remarked that it was easier to get the pill than an aspirin. (This was back when the pill had 10 times the doses of hormones than today and occasionally killed women.) The people suggested to get tubal ligations free? Most likely, just the same. Groups that are disproportionally lower income, racial minorites, with less education and access to contraceptives. It's important not to forget when we're debating one aspect of reproductive health that it's related to all the rest. Reproductive rights are as much as about the right to have children (and to choose when, how, and with whom) as the right NOT to have children. I'd love to see a pro-life group more interested in the REASONS why a woman chooses abortion (educational and economic opportunities, childcare costs, avaliability and cost of contraceptives, social view of contraceptive use, etc) and working from that angle than in just changing legal status. As this thread started with Partial Birth Abortions, I'll make a note on that in the US (again, sharing what I know). The bill states: "Congress has reached its conclusion that a ban on partial-birth abortion is not required to contain a `health' exception." (It does include an exception in case the mother's life is that risk.) This is despite the fact that the US Supreme Court already struck down a state law banning PBA also without a health exception in Stenberg v. Carhart. ANY partial birth abortion bans in any contry should have exceptions for the life AND health of the mother. (This is also consistent with the US Roe v. Wade). [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:05: Message edited by: Demented Munster ] -------------------- Sandwichs and Apples. Posts: 19 | Registered: Tuesday, May 20 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3004
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 12:25
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Ack. double post, sorry. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:26: Message edited by: Demented Munster ] -------------------- Sandwichs and Apples. Posts: 19 | Registered: Tuesday, May 20 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 13:33
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*clears throat* Um... am I really the only one who noticed this? "But what is really striking is that almost half of the unintended pregnancies, and almost half of all the abortions annually, occur to the three million women who do not use contraception." While I suppose it's technically possible for women to have multiple abortions in a year, I wouldn't think it would happen enough to skew the average very much. Or am I missing something? PS: The quote is taken from a Pro-choice site, so I found it mildly amusing to see Kel and Alec complaining about skewed data. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:49: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 13:44
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tKel I just copied and pasted the whole thing off a pro-life website. If the info is skewed I didn't intend it to be. I ran a google search on the quote and came up with a few other pro-life sites that also claim Planned Parenthood has said this. But I couldn't find it from the horses mouth. Fifth paragraph down. And in the same paragraph: quote:It seems to be based on inter-national numbers. You have to remember that in Japan(or is it a different asian country?), parents are only allowed one child. If they get pregnant again they either have to abort or they have to move. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:48: Message edited by: Jewels of the Forest ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 13:46
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That's China. People in rural areas are allowed two, I believe. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 13:51
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Xan, in the future, do not post links of that nature. You've been reported to the mod board for that. Everyone else, in the future, don't quote stuff like that and make me have to edit it out. :P [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 13:58: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 15:06
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quote:It does NOT say one thing in there about depictions of violence. I have not broken one rule that is in the Code of Conduct which is, to my knowledge, the rules. For whatever rule I seemed to have broken, I'm sorry, but I have not done anything that is labeled as "wrong" on this board. -------------------- I am the way into the doleful city I am the way into eternal grief, I am the way to a foresaken race. Justice it was that moved my great creator; Divine omnipotence created me, And highest wisdom joined with primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things Were made, and I shall last eternally Abandon all hope, all you who enter. Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 15:07
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quote:The Chinese policy is a whole other can of worms. The economy can't support even a small growth rate due to the fact that there's over a billion of them, to say nothing of the kind of birth rate that would result from larger families. And by 'the economy can't support...' I mean that people are going to starve, not that the Chinese economy is just going to suffer. Compare India, where the standard of life is plummeting in spite of modernization due to too-large families. I think when you get right down to it on the global scale, we have too many children already. And I find copy-pasting to be faintly insulting, really. If you have a genuine need to distort the facts, you might as well do it yourself. Xan: Half of the CoC is common sense. The 2002 debacle occurred because of a strict coherence to CoC rules without taking common sense into account, and look where that got us. Just because there are plenty of images from the Rotten Library that the CoC doesn't explicitly forbid doesn't mean they aren't clearly unacceptable for a general-audiences board. And really, what the hell purpose is there in it? It's the equivalent of butting into a more or less civilized debate by shrieking incoherently and throwing bags of piss on the other side. Shocking, yes, but it proves nothing. [ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 15:11: Message edited by: Bad-Ass Mother Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 15:38
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quote:Sort of. Although the statistics may be collected annually, they're still collected and averaged over a period of multiple years, so the same women having multiple abortions still skew the figures. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 15:40
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quote:Visual communication is a form of language, so it falls under the "vulgarity" clause. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 22:18
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I did not see the first picture, but could guess quite easily its nature. If I had seen it, I would have found it offensive, disgusting and vulgar, I can assure you. Rotten is not my favourite picture gallery. quote:It'd probably best to let the issue drop and the topic refocus on abortion again, but my curiosity is itching now. What was this "2002 Debacle" you speak of? -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 22 2005 22:28
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Alec was temporarily banned for an offhand comment containing a certain word. Djur was temporarily banned for coming to his defence by posting a dictionary definition of that word. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
