New Abortion Laws
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:23
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quote: quote:Hmm. I wonder which one is the lie. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:24
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quote:But that was already answered: quote:Sex education and illegal abortions are not mutualy exclusive. And both are important for the final results. There's no need to just choose one. Specially because, as I've also already said, the costs of enforcing the laws agains't abortion are not that significant. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:26
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quote:Not lie, a mistake. I live in a country where abortion is illegal (Portugal). You can verify that. BTW, not replying my other arguments addressed to you? ;) -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:27
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Not until you explain to me why you apparently think it's always wrong to kill people. Anyway, I'm not sure I want to debate with someone who's so out of touch with reality as to say that the costs of enforcing laws "aren't significant". Every criminal case that goes to court costs many thousands of dollars. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:29: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:35
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Wow, this topic has gone running. 1: I see, again and again, people claiming that illegalizing abortion will do little to reduce abortion. The effect one would expect (that I would, at least) is the opposite. Can someone provide an actual comparison rate? 2: This one addressed mainly to Dolphin and ef. While I sympathize with pregnant women in difficult situations, the "you don't understand" argument doesn't hold water. I completely understand that you may hate to carry the baby of your rapist. However, I don't believe a child should be killed for something that it's father did, and I believe that's what an abortion would be in this situation. One wrong doesn't justify another. To change my mind you'll need to convince me either that the fetus isn't alive, or that it isn't human, or that killing babies can be okay. 3: Alec raises an interesting point regarding legality and morality. I would like to know what he thinks of the outlawing of slavery in the US. It was very damaging to the economy of the South, and plunged the nation into civil war. Does he think Lincoln made a mistake? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:39
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quote:Keep in mind that slavery was outlawed for political reasons, not moral reasons. Lincoln is on record as having said that if keeping slavery legal would have kept the United States together, that's what he would have done. The North wanted slavery to go just as much as the South wanted it to remain; to prevent one or the other from seceding, a civil war would have been necessary regardless of whether slavery was abolished or not. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:41: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:39
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quote:So, with that you mean the humans are not superior... The animals are the ones inferior...? :D You're not being coherent here. quote:So, it's illegal "to beat my pets", but shouldn't be illegal to "KILL my baby"? :P quote:Those are the exceptions that confirm the rule. ;) Anyway, we are talking about human potential. He can use it to do good or evil. But only he has the notion of good and evil. Animal don't have the same potential nor have that notion. The best human is far superior than the best animal. quote:You missed the point. So, to prevent baby killing, we have to adopt. If it's only torture, there's no need? What I was showing was that you were using an argument that doesn't justify abortion. Just because you can't adopt a child, doesn't mean you can't defend her life. I defend pro-life, even if I can't adopt children. So that argument shouldn't be used in this debate. This just goes around because you always try to go around the arguments. I've already argumented about human consciousness, life, etc... Which you didn't manage to reply. You just avoid the arguments and keep throwing sand to our eyes with that your "we are taling in circles" claim. quote:Nice way to avoid answering the question. ;) Btw, why was it an ignorant statement? More: don't you think defending abortion is lack of sensitivity to babies? Sorry, but it's your fault our "sub-debate" doesn't advance: you avoid the questions/arguments and insist saying the same things over and over. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:47: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:43
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quote:I don't say it's always wrong. As I said multiple times, there are cases where abortion is aceptable. About not being significant, it's relative to the costs of abortion, not only in $$$ but in priceless human lives. Plus, money should not be an issue. What is wrong mustn't be allowed. Or do you think we should just stick to sexual education to prevent rape? Or school education to prevent murdering? Hell! Why do we need laws? It would be cheaper just to give a good education... -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:45
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quote:Are human lives priceless? The life of a complete stranger isn't worth much to me at all. How much would you pay to save a life? How much *are* you paying to save lives? Virtually everyone who says that the lives of people they don't know are of value is a hypocrite, because they themselves don't really care about those lives. If you did, you'd spend all your time and money on charitable work instead of sitting around on the internet in fruitless debate. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:47: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:47
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quote:Without meaning to be dismissive, if killing people can't be said to be wrong, pretty much nothing can be said to be wrong. Yes, I understand the logic of your point. But we've had this discussion before, and we know it leads to madness. :P Besides, if we had a referendum in any country in the world, I'm sure 90% or more would agree that killing an innocent person without their consent is always wrong. The issue is whether or not the unborn child is indeed a person. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:50
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People follow moral prescriptions only to the extent that it's easy for them to do so. We generally don't kill adults mainly because it isn't often that we'd gain an overall benefit from doing so. As soon as morality becomes hard, the religious and non-religious alike abandon moral behaviour in droves, which shows just what a shaky foundation the very idea of morality is built on. Given that, I prefer to take ethical positions that lead to interesting arguments, rather than ones approved of by the majority of people; popular morality is only popular because it's convenient. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:52
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quote:I pay taxes so that the State, among other duties, can protect/save lives. Not to terminate them, as in the case of abortion. And of course I care, or I wouldn't bother defending pro-life. You have no way to fairly say I don't care about those lives. But, once again, that's not a pertinent issue to the debate: People don't care if their neighbour is murdered, so why should defend a law agains't murder? Let's legalize murder! ;) -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:54
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In societies with no formal structures for law enforcement, murder generally hasn't run rampant, except in the form of localised vendettas or brief conflicts. Even if murder were completely legal, the vast majority of people wouldn't go around killing others for fear of reprisal. Society tends to reach an equilibrium eventually, with or without laws. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:55: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:54
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Edit: Forget this. Thuryl, I'd love to discuss the concept of morality with you some more, but elsewhere. I think you're derailing this debate. The rest of us seem to accept some kind of right/wrong. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 13:59: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:55
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quote:Just in case you don't know, it's unethical to kill innocent human lives. And I'm even justifying my arguments with ethics, social good and science. How often did you read me saying that abortion shouldn't be legal because of religion/God? -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 13:57
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quote:So, now you're defending popular justice and morals? Didn't you just defended the oposite just a while ago? ;) Ok, let people stone women who do abortions, if that's what you prefer. :P (Like they did, centuries ago). -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:00
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quote:What measure of value is there other than the amount of time or money someone's willing to spend on something? quote:A mutual understanding tends to develop in any community of people who live together for long enough, even in the absence of external law enforcement. Even in our society, we're all basically out for ourselves and those we personally care about, but the system still holds together. Any such system will have aspects that are unpleasant for some, and those people will naturally exert a degree of pressure toward change, but in their own way such systems work in the long run. When you look less at what ought to happen and more at what does happen, things sort themselves out. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:01
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quote:Please don't put words in my mouth. Unless that is what I directly said it is not what I meant. I said earlier and will say again “I see animals as equal to humans.” This comment refers to consciousness not technological capabilities. quote:Again I refer you to the comment about consciousness. Also it is technically an “embryo”, a baby is after birth. quote:Good and Evil is a religious implication, and is simply a superiorety complex. Atheists don't believe in “good and evil”, are they animals to you. quote:True, but you don't have an alterative source of care for them. I feel I have answered your questions sufficiently, and what I have not commented in-depth on others have. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:03
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quote:I'm not defending anything; I'm stating facts, including facts about what I approve and disapprove of. I hope it's obvious that I'm not actually trying to convince anyone else of anything. quote:If that's what they want to do, that's what they're going to do, and society as a whole will respond as it sees fit. It's not within my power as an individual to stop them. Social forces are bigger than any one of us, no matter how fervently you may disapprove. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:04: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:03
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I just happen to read Mere Christianity by C.S.Lewis. Fasinating book. In it, rather than using God to say that there is 'right and wrong' he uses the existance of 'right and wrong' as exidence of God. He goes into it in some depth, but the gist of his argument is as follows. "If the universe was meaningless (without right and wrong) we should never have discovered that it was so. Just as if there was no light in the universe and consequently no eyes, we should never have discovered it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning." Edit: Ash Lael is right. We really ought to start another topic for this. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:06: Message edited by: The Creator ] -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:04
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quote:It has not so much to do with hate, Ash Lael, it has to do with damage. You would accept any amount of irreparable emotional damage done a woman to uphold your ideal of how life should be. Tell me, why does she have to pay the prize for your ideals? And if she seeks the mercy of death, would you then force her to live? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:05
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quote:We haven't discovered that the universe is meaningless -- look at all the lost people in society looking for meaning, convinced that it's there to be found. Therefore, since people are looking for meaning but nobody's found it definitively enough to convince everyone else of what it is, the universe may or may not be meaningless. Personally, I'm convinced that whether or not meaning is there, the search for it is fruitless, so I've more or less given up looking. But anyway, as people seem to be saying that I'm likely to derail the topic, I won't make any further replies. Sorry. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:11: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:10
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But if it was meaningless, we would never have understood the concept of meaning. Therefore the universe cannot be meaningless. Not merely 'unable to know if there is meaning'. Would you like to start the new topic, or will I? [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:13: Message edited by: The Creator ] -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:13
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Okay, sorry. One more reply, then I'm done with the topic, I promise. Do we understand the concept of meaning? We have a word for it, but if you ask someone what they actually mean when they say it, they tend to wave their hands about noncommittally. Sure, we understand the concepts of intending something to be interpreted in a certain way, or of being interpreted in a certain way by a certain person, but taking away the specific individuals involved in the act of meaning and expecting "meaning" to still mean something in the absence of someone in particular for it to mean something to seems overambitious. EDIT: Not much point starting a new topic. I doubt we'll get much further than we have. Sorry for messing up this one. [ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:19: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
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written Sunday, March 27 2005 14:18
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If you substitute meaning with 'right and wrong' as I did in my first post, certainly, I know what I mean by it. I only used the word 'meaning' because that is what the original quote was. And I guess you'll start the new topic as a response to this. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
