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Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:57 Profile Homepage #15
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Representing a system in a different way is not dumbing it down. I myself understand dialogue pretty well, but it would be easier if it were represented visually. For two years in high school physics, my teacher forced us to draw diagrams for every physics problem that we got. Was that dumbing down the problem?
Don't get me started on physics and diagrams.

quote:

It's not removing complexity. All of the components are still there. It's a matter of changing the representation. Simplifying something only becomes a problem when you lose utility, and the program that I'm imagining would not erase any components.
Now we come to something of a slippery-slope argument. On its own, this design is acceptable (but not one I'd personally use, as I dislike the entire idea of visualizing it because I don't find it necessary). But once you simplify dialogue--what must now be done is simplify script editing, which is where the real problem lies.

The only real issue with your design is that coding it would be awfully difficult and probably out of my league if I wanted it to be cross-platform. I'm not saying it's not possible for others--but the benefits are outweighed by the inherent issues. I wrote AvDialogue because I needed something to speed up writing dialogue, not to idiot-proof it for me or make it more "understandable," because as it stands Avernumscript is perfectly understandable.

quote:

Programs have been made that do individual parts of a custom objects script already, but they aren't very good, not because they dumb down the system — they're actually easier to use than writing raw code — but because they don't have enough features. They can't handle more than one object at a time, and they can each only do one type of object, for instance.
Gimme a week after I release AvDialogue2, okay? I'll fix that little problem. (And once I do that, kick me so I remember.)

quote:

Arenax, I recommend you look at the description that I posted above and tell me exactly what would be missing from such a program. What could one do writing raw code that one could not do with the program that I described above?
Nothing. However, the GUI-based complexity of such a design makes it very prohibitive.

quote:

Similarly, take a look at an editor for custom objects scripts that has already been made and tell me what one could do writing raw code that one could not do with such a program. This creature editor and its cousins need more features, certainly, but I challenge you to tell me how they are less powerful than scripting directly.[/QB]
I can't, because I can't get to the website. :P

Besides, this sort of thing is not actual scripting so much as it is data entry. These don't bother me nearly so much as the people who want a BoE-style node editor (which I've explained as somewhere between unlikely and impossible).

I make programs that I would use, and the visualization stuff isn't something I'd use, so I probably wouldn't make it. That's just how I am.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:57 Profile Homepage #15
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Representing a system in a different way is not dumbing it down. I myself understand dialogue pretty well, but it would be easier if it were represented visually. For two years in high school physics, my teacher forced us to draw diagrams for every physics problem that we got. Was that dumbing down the problem?
Don't get me started on physics and diagrams.

quote:

It's not removing complexity. All of the components are still there. It's a matter of changing the representation. Simplifying something only becomes a problem when you lose utility, and the program that I'm imagining would not erase any components.
Now we come to something of a slippery-slope argument. On its own, this design is acceptable (but not one I'd personally use, as I dislike the entire idea of visualizing it because I don't find it necessary). But once you simplify dialogue--what must now be done is simplify script editing, which is where the real problem lies.

The only real issue with your design is that coding it would be awfully difficult and probably out of my league if I wanted it to be cross-platform. I'm not saying it's not possible for others--but the benefits are outweighed by the inherent issues. I wrote AvDialogue because I needed something to speed up writing dialogue, not to idiot-proof it for me or make it more "understandable," because as it stands Avernumscript is perfectly understandable.

quote:

Programs have been made that do individual parts of a custom objects script already, but they aren't very good, not because they dumb down the system — they're actually easier to use than writing raw code — but because they don't have enough features. They can't handle more than one object at a time, and they can each only do one type of object, for instance.
Gimme a week after I release AvDialogue2, okay? I'll fix that little problem. (And once I do that, kick me so I remember.)

quote:

Arenax, I recommend you look at the description that I posted above and tell me exactly what would be missing from such a program. What could one do writing raw code that one could not do with the program that I described above?
Nothing. However, the GUI-based complexity of such a design makes it very prohibitive.

quote:

Similarly, take a look at an editor for custom objects scripts that has already been made and tell me what one could do writing raw code that one could not do with such a program. This creature editor and its cousins need more features, certainly, but I challenge you to tell me how they are less powerful than scripting directly.[/QB]
I can't, because I can't get to the website. :P

Besides, this sort of thing is not actual scripting so much as it is data entry. These don't bother me nearly so much as the people who want a BoE-style node editor (which I've explained as somewhere between unlikely and impossible).

I make programs that I would use, and the visualization stuff isn't something I'd use, so I probably wouldn't make it. That's just how I am.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:40 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by but babey u make me so sad:

So you missed the "Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?" and "Then you wouldn't have to port anything." parts of his post?
Not at all. But I explained why that didn't work and he continued in the same vein. The program was already mostly done, and is about 60% done after two days of work (whereas in C++ or Python it'd be somewhere around 5%, but that's another story), and he continued along the lines of "use a decent language."
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:40 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by but babey u make me so sad:

So you missed the "Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?" and "Then you wouldn't have to port anything." parts of his post?
Not at all. But I explained why that didn't work and he continued in the same vein. The program was already mostly done, and is about 60% done after two days of work (whereas in C++ or Python it'd be somewhere around 5%, but that's another story), and he continued along the lines of "use a decent language."
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:18 Profile Homepage #29
"Use a decent language" is just a wee bit of an attack in my book, especially considering I've explained why I didn't want to use C/C++ or Java.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW--the entire issue is rather moot. I've offered to do something for the community that will not benefit me in the slightest and it seems a number of people are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Criticism is fine--if it's constructive criticism that can be leveraged into something useful. "Use a decent language" when the project is already mostly completed is not constructive, now, is it?

[ Sunday, November 21, 2004 07:21: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:18 Profile Homepage #29
"Use a decent language" is just a wee bit of an attack in my book, especially considering I've explained why I didn't want to use C/C++ or Java.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW--the entire issue is rather moot. I've offered to do something for the community that will not benefit me in the slightest and it seems a number of people are looking a gift horse in the mouth. Criticism is fine--if it's constructive criticism that can be leveraged into something useful. "Use a decent language" when the project is already mostly completed is not constructive, now, is it?

[ Sunday, November 21, 2004 07:21: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Roots Released! in Blades of Exile
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:07 Profile Homepage #17
This looks extremely awesome. I might have to actually go through the hassle of getting a replacement of BoE from JV to play this.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Exile 3, Windows, Crashing at Character Creation in Tech Support
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 07:05 Profile Homepage #13
And people laughed at me when I said I wasn't going to switch to XP.

Well--WHO'S LAUGHING NOW?! HUH?!

/me waves his stick triumphantly
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Undead Topics Need Loving Too (aka "Give Me Your First-Born") in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:56 Profile Homepage #392
I think he IS that sheltered.

Ed go cry now.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:53 Profile Homepage #27
I'd like a straight answer to a question, if I may.

Last I checked, I have offered to port my stuff to the Mac. This is a chore that brings me no personal benefit whatsoever. I'm also considering making it open-source, an ideology to which I do not hold, for the benefit of all of you people.

So why, exactly, did you begin by piling on me because I "wasn't doing it right"? I fully expect all of those who have complained not to use my software--they're insisting it's done badly sight unseen, so obviously they won't try it--but I want to know--why?

Why are you attacking me for doing y'all a service that I personally could do well without?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:53 Profile Homepage #27
I'd like a straight answer to a question, if I may.

Last I checked, I have offered to port my stuff to the Mac. This is a chore that brings me no personal benefit whatsoever. I'm also considering making it open-source, an ideology to which I do not hold, for the benefit of all of you people.

So why, exactly, did you begin by piling on me because I "wasn't doing it right"? I fully expect all of those who have complained not to use my software--they're insisting it's done badly sight unseen, so obviously they won't try it--but I want to know--why?

Why are you attacking me for doing y'all a service that I personally could do well without?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Does anyone have the old versions of Exile? in The Exile Trilogy
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:46 Profile Homepage #11
quote:
Originally written by -08:

Lol. Sorry but i dont got them on this comp anymore. I deleted them cause they dont work well with this windows xp, althought they do work well with the other one. However, i have noticed that some of the graphics come with the game when you download it, but they arent used. I dont know why, but this applies only to exile 1. :confused:
I just might have to track down the old Exile 1 installer, then. I think I even know where to get it.

And if not, I can probably dig up my old computer.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Suggestions for Geneforge 3 in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:45 Profile Homepage #2
Varg, I wouldn't bother. Jeff Vogel knows what his players want (cue eye rolls here) and requests shall do you no good.

(Do I sound cynical?)
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:40 Profile Homepage #26
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.
And I quote:

"Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?"

Sounds rather offensive to me. Oh, wait--I don't always use the Holy Grail of computer languages, so I must be wrong.

quote:

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.
I held no issue with you in the other thread; that was one I enjoyed. But attacking me for daring to use a language you find fault with (which is what that previous quote was, in case you didn't notice) is reason enough for me to bring it up a few levels.

Oh, and IIRC, the e-mail I sent pertained to an inquiry as to features and other user-centric facets of a program--not the code itself.

I'm not a person who believes in turning the other cheek. So sue me.

quote:

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.
Strange, I wasn't attempting to be arrogant--I've simply stated facts as I see them and refused to put up with crap. People who remember me from then will probably tell you that I was always this way. I listen to reasoned opinions; I ignore those who aren't.

quote:

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.
"Those who can, do." I do what I can, and I don't put up with crap from people who I don't respect. You're okay, I'll give you that. I respect you to a degree, probably moreso than most because you know what you're talking about.

There's no way in hell I'm going to be anything remotely close to polite with those who beg for tools to make BoA scripting easier and then whine when they get the tools "because they're not done right" in some indefinable way.

I get along fine with TM, Kelandon, Khoth, and a number of others--because they can do things (and do do things) and have earned my respect.

And were you anyone else, I'd tell you to get a clue--but I do think you have one and simply can't quite find it at the moment.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:40 Profile Homepage #26
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

Are you the type of person that, when tapped on the shoulder, spins around with a left hook in mid-air? Because that's how you're coming off. Extremely touchy and defensive.
And I quote:

"Why not use a cross-platform toolkit like wxWidgets that works in a decent language?"

Sounds rather offensive to me. Oh, wait--I don't always use the Holy Grail of computer languages, so I must be wrong.

quote:

It hasn't been my intention to be "offensive" towards you in this or any other thread. In this thread, I just offered advice (which you requested via email as well); in the only other one in which we have had any contact, we had a disagreement and what I would characterize as a "lively debate" regarding the relative merits of different languages. You're the one who, immediately, accused me of being under the influence of drugs for holding a particular opinion on programming languages. Your baseless ad hominem attacks have only gotten worse.
I held no issue with you in the other thread; that was one I enjoyed. But attacking me for daring to use a language you find fault with (which is what that previous quote was, in case you didn't notice) is reason enough for me to bring it up a few levels.

Oh, and IIRC, the e-mail I sent pertained to an inquiry as to features and other user-centric facets of a program--not the code itself.

I'm not a person who believes in turning the other cheek. So sue me.

quote:

By the way, if you think that being around in '98 and having your "unbeatable monster" whipped by Thuryl makes you any more respectable than, say, TGM or anyone else, you're sadly mistaken. Perhaps if you had been around since then. Perhaps if you had made any real contribution since. Perhaps if, upon returning, you hadn't presented yourself as incredibly arrogant and irrational.
Strange, I wasn't attempting to be arrogant--I've simply stated facts as I see them and refused to put up with crap. People who remember me from then will probably tell you that I was always this way. I listen to reasoned opinions; I ignore those who aren't.

quote:

Seniority requires presence. Even if you had that, it still wouldn't protect you from being seen as an ass if you act like an ass. A little bit of humility goes a long way, you know.
"Those who can, do." I do what I can, and I don't put up with crap from people who I don't respect. You're okay, I'll give you that. I respect you to a degree, probably moreso than most because you know what you're talking about.

There's no way in hell I'm going to be anything remotely close to polite with those who beg for tools to make BoA scripting easier and then whine when they get the tools "because they're not done right" in some indefinable way.

I get along fine with TM, Kelandon, Khoth, and a number of others--because they can do things (and do do things) and have earned my respect.

And were you anyone else, I'd tell you to get a clue--but I do think you have one and simply can't quite find it at the moment.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:32 Profile Homepage #13
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

IMO, what would be the best would be something exactly like the BoE dialogue editor but for BoA.
This is something I feel safe in calling impossible. The two operate on entirely different principles. BoE's dialogue editor was kludge and relied upon a system incompatible with BoA's.

quote:

And a lot of people would probably use a monster/item/terrain editor like BoE's too.
...Oh teh nos, something slightly complex that can be done with but a very simply program! o.O

Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but the current system works well and is considerably more powerful than BoE's. Dumbing it down is a bad idea.

Oh, and Walker: Computers are not levers. Complexity in a programming language or scripting language almost always confers flexibility. The removal of a language's complexity almost always reduces utility. I can come up with examples to prove the opposite and I'm sure you can too--but they're few and far between.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 06:32 Profile Homepage #13
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

IMO, what would be the best would be something exactly like the BoE dialogue editor but for BoA.
This is something I feel safe in calling impossible. The two operate on entirely different principles. BoE's dialogue editor was kludge and relied upon a system incompatible with BoA's.

quote:

And a lot of people would probably use a monster/item/terrain editor like BoE's too.
...Oh teh nos, something slightly complex that can be done with but a very simply program! o.O

Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but the current system works well and is considerably more powerful than BoE's. Dumbing it down is a bad idea.

Oh, and Walker: Computers are not levers. Complexity in a programming language or scripting language almost always confers flexibility. The removal of a language's complexity almost always reduces utility. I can come up with examples to prove the opposite and I'm sure you can too--but they're few and far between.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Does anyone have the old versions of Exile? in The Exile Trilogy
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 17:42 Profile Homepage #9
quote:
Originally written by -08:

Wait. Once i downloaded them from a different site, and the graphics were weird, but also the sounds were different. I can't really remember what they looked like, but sorta like a comic book characters i guess. :P Are these the ones you're talking about?
Screens/actual explanations are nice. :D
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 17:37 Profile Homepage #9
If someone provides a document detailed down to the most minute level, I'll take a crack at it.

But it's an idea that strikes me as wholly unnecessary and the creation of a floodgate for "kewl i can make a scenario w00t" types. Maybe I'm wrong--but that's what BoE had for a long time.

EDIT: And you're still seeking to simplify it. :-P

[ Saturday, November 20, 2004 17:39: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 17:37 Profile Homepage #9
If someone provides a document detailed down to the most minute level, I'll take a crack at it.

But it's an idea that strikes me as wholly unnecessary and the creation of a floodgate for "kewl i can make a scenario w00t" types. Maybe I'm wrong--but that's what BoE had for a long time.

EDIT: And you're still seeking to simplify it. :-P

[ Saturday, November 20, 2004 17:39: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
BoA Graphics Entries and Judging Details in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 11:23 Profile Homepage #57
quote:
Originally written by Roger Fickmann:

Yes. Yes I am. >_<

I blame my pirating anime, personally.
You deserve it. :P
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Geneforge 3 Screenshots.... in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 10:57 Profile Homepage #26
No, he's an idiot who begs people to make him trainers. See my old signature.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Magey Questions in The Avernum Trilogy
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 10:07 Profile Homepage #1
Spells are mostly useless against all of those. If this is A3, then almost every party should have the physical muscle to beat them down (INSANE damage levels, wahey!). In the others...well, buff up your fighters and throw them at the guys. I recommend summoning weak creatures as extra targets, too.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Who is your favorite exile? in The Exile Trilogy
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 10:03 Profile Homepage #17
Cats are awesome, therefore Motrax is likewise awesome.

Really quite simple, no?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Kotor in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Saturday, November 20 2004 10:02 Profile Homepage #12
At least you're not the Finnish guy.

My opinion of him should be quite apparent. :P
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00

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