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Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:18 Profile Homepage #43
quote:
Originally written by Lord Bob:

Frankly, I think that if these tools make it easier for all the duncecaps who think that the dragons of Avernum are Motrax, Khoth, and Trogdor, so what? There are plenty of OMG LUK AT MEE!!!!!! scenarios out there for BoE, and the classical reaction has to been either to flame to bits/wait until they go away, or if the newbie shows any promise to let them work it out.

These editors make it easier for the idiots, but it also makes it easier for the people who are learning like to get their feet wet before the plunge, and for the veterans who just want a quicker, less tedious way of doing things. This, to me, justifies the possibility that we'll have to ignore a couple more hunks of dreck than we do right now.
Perhaps I'm pessimistic, but I think "a few" is understating it.

BoA is a harder system to use than that of BoE. I think users are likely to be intimidated by it, and if much of what they see is garbage, they'll be scared off before they can even get into making their own scenarios. That happened to me soon after my parents bought me BoE; I saw a ton of crap, played some of it, and tossed it into my CD caddy it wasn't until a friend of mine sent me one of the better scenarios--Nephil's Gambit, I think--that I got into it. While there are probably going to be many good scenarios for BoA, bad ones have more of an impact early on.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:08 Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by KernelKnowledge12:

quote:
Originally written by Dastal:

KernelKnowledge, if it's such an easy process, and you have already figured it out, you should have no problem quickly converting the Mac 3D BoA editor to Windows.
I never said it was easy. I screwed around with the original editor for a month over the summer and started working on a 3D editor using MFC/DirectX. (Before I started thinking cross-platform.) After a little I got an idea for a project that could potentially make me some money, so I dumped the editor.
You said it was "simple." "Simple" and "easy" are interchangeable.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
3D BOA Editor (Windows) in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:08 Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by KernelKnowledge12:

quote:
Originally written by Dastal:

KernelKnowledge, if it's such an easy process, and you have already figured it out, you should have no problem quickly converting the Mac 3D BoA editor to Windows.
I never said it was easy. I screwed around with the original editor for a month over the summer and started working on a 3D editor using MFC/DirectX. (Before I started thinking cross-platform.) After a little I got an idea for a project that could potentially make me some money, so I dumped the editor.
You said it was "simple." "Simple" and "easy" are interchangeable.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:05 Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

[QB]
quote:
Originally written by Arenaqs:

As a designer: the former.

As a player: the latter. I have fairly high standards on scenarios I'll play; I can't help that and would probably choose ten-centimeter spikes through the forehead rather than play Undead Valley by l33td00d.
This is elitist and morally repugnant- are you somehow insinuating that if I don't know how to code, I shouldn't write scenarios? As in, if I don't know how to check a stuff-done-flag, I'm not worth being a writer? Maybe godawful scenarios are worse than none- I won't argue either which way on that point. But saying that a person who can't program can't tell a scenario-worthy story is obscene.
They may be able to tell a story--but not write a quality scenario. Scenarios are more than story.

quote:

I will simplify this for you.

Your worst disadvantage is that some people who cling to the tools will not learn to do anything without the tools successfully.

1) This ain't 100% true, since many people will try to learn coding on their own. More creative designers who want to do more creative things will eventually figure out ways to do the stuff they wanna do.
What I said has held true for most members of the communities of the GCKs I've used and worked on over the past few years (ZZT and Megazeux, among others). If you give people a crutch, the vast majority of them will keep it permanently.

quote:

2) This is not a disadvantage that harms any party involved- more people who would otherwise be unmotivated make scenarios.
Scenarios that are lacking in playability, but might have a corking good story.

Sorry, but I still want playability first. Games are not mediums first to tell a story--they are first games.

quote:
The other disadvantage, of course, is no scenarios from those who would otherwise make 'em. You try to convince me that yours is worse.
Fewer good scenarios > many bad scenarios. Elitist? Probably. Accurate? Said Boolean evaluates to True. :P
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:05 Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

[QB]
quote:
Originally written by Arenaqs:

As a designer: the former.

As a player: the latter. I have fairly high standards on scenarios I'll play; I can't help that and would probably choose ten-centimeter spikes through the forehead rather than play Undead Valley by l33td00d.
This is elitist and morally repugnant- are you somehow insinuating that if I don't know how to code, I shouldn't write scenarios? As in, if I don't know how to check a stuff-done-flag, I'm not worth being a writer? Maybe godawful scenarios are worse than none- I won't argue either which way on that point. But saying that a person who can't program can't tell a scenario-worthy story is obscene.
They may be able to tell a story--but not write a quality scenario. Scenarios are more than story.

quote:

I will simplify this for you.

Your worst disadvantage is that some people who cling to the tools will not learn to do anything without the tools successfully.

1) This ain't 100% true, since many people will try to learn coding on their own. More creative designers who want to do more creative things will eventually figure out ways to do the stuff they wanna do.
What I said has held true for most members of the communities of the GCKs I've used and worked on over the past few years (ZZT and Megazeux, among others). If you give people a crutch, the vast majority of them will keep it permanently.

quote:

2) This is not a disadvantage that harms any party involved- more people who would otherwise be unmotivated make scenarios.
Scenarios that are lacking in playability, but might have a corking good story.

Sorry, but I still want playability first. Games are not mediums first to tell a story--they are first games.

quote:
The other disadvantage, of course, is no scenarios from those who would otherwise make 'em. You try to convince me that yours is worse.
Fewer good scenarios > many bad scenarios. Elitist? Probably. Accurate? Said Boolean evaluates to True. :P
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:55 Profile Homepage #38
What was the question I asked, Djur?

"Should I port my tools to the Mac?"
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:55 Profile Homepage #38
What was the question I asked, Djur?

"Should I port my tools to the Mac?"
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:42 Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

Thank you for your support. .NET is incredibly evil.
And in other news, the sky is blue!

quote:

I might be somewhere in the middle; I don't believe in using RAD tools like realBASIC or .NET, but I don't want to waste my time in ASM either. C/C++ tends to be the industry standard for a reason.
For important work, I use C++. For something that I'm trying to kick out the door and get into circulation, RAD tools have a place.

quote:

P.S. The older you are, the harder it is to learn. Old people are not neccesarily bad at making stories, while find it hard to learn obscure series of characters.
Which is part of the reason behind my CallWizard concept (which was a fairly large concession in the direction of what they want, but because you *GASP!* must actually read code and understand it to use them, people hated it.)

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 06:42: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:42 Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

Thank you for your support. .NET is incredibly evil.
And in other news, the sky is blue!

quote:

I might be somewhere in the middle; I don't believe in using RAD tools like realBASIC or .NET, but I don't want to waste my time in ASM either. C/C++ tends to be the industry standard for a reason.
For important work, I use C++. For something that I'm trying to kick out the door and get into circulation, RAD tools have a place.

quote:

P.S. The older you are, the harder it is to learn. Old people are not neccesarily bad at making stories, while find it hard to learn obscure series of characters.
Which is part of the reason behind my CallWizard concept (which was a fairly large concession in the direction of what they want, but because you *GASP!* must actually read code and understand it to use them, people hated it.)

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 06:42: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:40 Profile Homepage #36
quote:
Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

Good coding helps, but it is not everything. Question- would you rather have a decent, unremarkable scenario made by a non-programmer, or no scenario by a non-programmer?
As a designer: the former.

As a player: the latter. I have fairly high standards on scenarios I'll play; I can't help that and would probably choose ten-centimeter spikes through the forehead rather than play Undead Valley by l33td00d.

quote:

But even more than that, since I myself am being thrown around as an example here, people don't start off at the top- but that doesn't mean they have to stay on the bottom. Capitalism is not a meritocracy, but programming for BoA in many ways is. Maybe hard work isn't the whole pie, but if a designer wants to design, don't hold something against a tool.

For instance, when learning calculus, one can assume that a limit exists and determine the methods to reach it. Some people need to see it- I sure did. Without graphing calculators, there would be less than half of the people in the classroom who would grasp calculus as quickly as the others, but those other people now know how to do calculus (or at least that aspect of it- god knows I'm floundering with other portions) just as well as everyone else.
Invalid analogy, I'd say--because a graphing calculator visually shows you the results while you must put in the raw data. A scripting tool takes in visual input and puts out the raw data--which, for many people, leads to the "black box" mentality, where they don't want to know how something works because it does.

quote:

Similarly, if you make a took that lets people see how it's done, they will be able to make scenarios now, and they will be able to do so in the future without the tool. How did I learn BoE? Same way I learned BoA (except with not as much time taken up in-between): I fumbled, I experimented, but even moreso, I looked at scenarios in the editor and figured out how they did that which they did. How did one-times work? I checked. How did special encounters work? I checked. If I had an intuitive manual or a device, though, I wouldn't have required half of the time and could have done it much quicker than I would have been able to otherwise.
TM, that's the best way to do it. Tools to write your code for you are not, which is the ONLY THING I'VE ARGUED AGAINST FROM THE BEGINNING.

A visual representation of dialogue trees might help some people. I've simply said that I'd not use it for a host of reasons and that I probably wouldn't add it to AVD2 because of that and technical issues.

quote:

God. I can't believe you're really arguing that you shouldn't be making a tool.
Tools for data entry and that sort of thing? Fine. Eliminates tedium.

Tools to do your work for you? No. You don't learn that way.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:40 Profile Homepage #36
quote:
Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

Good coding helps, but it is not everything. Question- would you rather have a decent, unremarkable scenario made by a non-programmer, or no scenario by a non-programmer?
As a designer: the former.

As a player: the latter. I have fairly high standards on scenarios I'll play; I can't help that and would probably choose ten-centimeter spikes through the forehead rather than play Undead Valley by l33td00d.

quote:

But even more than that, since I myself am being thrown around as an example here, people don't start off at the top- but that doesn't mean they have to stay on the bottom. Capitalism is not a meritocracy, but programming for BoA in many ways is. Maybe hard work isn't the whole pie, but if a designer wants to design, don't hold something against a tool.

For instance, when learning calculus, one can assume that a limit exists and determine the methods to reach it. Some people need to see it- I sure did. Without graphing calculators, there would be less than half of the people in the classroom who would grasp calculus as quickly as the others, but those other people now know how to do calculus (or at least that aspect of it- god knows I'm floundering with other portions) just as well as everyone else.
Invalid analogy, I'd say--because a graphing calculator visually shows you the results while you must put in the raw data. A scripting tool takes in visual input and puts out the raw data--which, for many people, leads to the "black box" mentality, where they don't want to know how something works because it does.

quote:

Similarly, if you make a took that lets people see how it's done, they will be able to make scenarios now, and they will be able to do so in the future without the tool. How did I learn BoE? Same way I learned BoA (except with not as much time taken up in-between): I fumbled, I experimented, but even moreso, I looked at scenarios in the editor and figured out how they did that which they did. How did one-times work? I checked. How did special encounters work? I checked. If I had an intuitive manual or a device, though, I wouldn't have required half of the time and could have done it much quicker than I would have been able to otherwise.
TM, that's the best way to do it. Tools to write your code for you are not, which is the ONLY THING I'VE ARGUED AGAINST FROM THE BEGINNING.

A visual representation of dialogue trees might help some people. I've simply said that I'd not use it for a host of reasons and that I probably wouldn't add it to AVD2 because of that and technical issues.

quote:

God. I can't believe you're really arguing that you shouldn't be making a tool.
Tools for data entry and that sort of thing? Fine. Eliminates tedium.

Tools to do your work for you? No. You don't learn that way.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:34 Profile Homepage #34
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

Heh. If people are so determined to make things less easy for them, they shouldn't use a text editor. Instead, get a very small magnet and move it in patterns over a floppy disk.

Then again, it's not like I'm not against things like .NET.
.NET is bad.

That is all.

(I've never touched it and never will.)
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:34 Profile Homepage #34
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

Heh. If people are so determined to make things less easy for them, they shouldn't use a text editor. Instead, get a very small magnet and move it in patterns over a floppy disk.

Then again, it's not like I'm not against things like .NET.
.NET is bad.

That is all.

(I've never touched it and never will.)
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:33 Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by Silence in Motion:

Wow - I never expected this to go on this long!

I simply feel there are people out there with minimal programming skills that have great stories to tell.
So...they can develop programming skills? Sorry, Brett, but here I disagree fully. Programming is not that hard a concept to grasp, and Avernumscript is a very simple scripting system. I would have preferred a Python derivative, but this is still a very, very easy script language.

If a non-programming friend of mine (and not a computer/math geek at all) can sit down in front of BoA, with its documentation, and pick up a working knowledge of Avernumscript--enough to write workable town scripts and such, I'm not saying he could do a creature script off the bat--in a couple of hours, I can't say that I believe it's that hard.

quote:

BoA's current scripting system will never allow them to express those stories.
Not if they don't want to put in the effort, no.

I for one am not a natural programmer; I don't think that way. I have to put in a fairly large amount of effort to work at it--but I recognize the value of flexibility and utility over glossing over the important parts of a language.

quote:

Tools that translate a visual metaphor into script would help them.
Hiding the scripting language so they don't learn it doesn't help; it exacerbates the problem.

If you do not understand the language, you don't know what it can and cannot do.

quote:

What we have now only allows a small subset of the population to create a scenario.
The subset who want to put effort in and actually work at making a scenario, sure.

quote:

I'm not critizing anyone for not developing these tools - it would require a tremendous effort to do so.
Less than you'd think--I've already more or less completed what you outlined for a dialogue editor, minus the pwetty pictures. A custom item editor will be forthcoming, too.

I have one problem with these tool ideas, however, and it's a very simple one. Simplified tools lose functionality. If functionality is lost, then they aren't worth a damn.

quote:

The Creator is right about me - I'm not the best coder in the world, but I am stubborn. It took me three attempts to get the Missionary and Cannibals code in Quintessence working correctly. Not many people are as stubborn as I am.
And your determination shows through in your scenarios (I haven't played Quintessence--no BoE anymore--but I played your older ones). You may not have an intuitive grasp of it, but you're willing to work at it, and it makes for a better outcome.

quote:

Because of that, I'll add one very controversial statement: BoA will never achieve the level of success BoE enjoys, because it's too hard to script. Time will prove me right or wrong.
I agree. BoA's scripting takes a modicum of effort--hell, making towns and dungeons alone does now, even without the addition of scripting.

BoE's is simple but very limited and requires ridiculous workarounds. BoA's is slightly more difficult (and I'm not understating it when I say "slightly"--I apologize if I sound arrogant, but it's really very easy in comparison to most scripting languages), but far more powerful.

So people who want the utility of a useful program will go to BoA. People who want to make scenarios quickly and not worry about what they're missing will stick with BoE. I'm not saying that's wrong; I am saying that trying to make BoA like BoE isn't going to work.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:33 Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by Silence in Motion:

Wow - I never expected this to go on this long!

I simply feel there are people out there with minimal programming skills that have great stories to tell.
So...they can develop programming skills? Sorry, Brett, but here I disagree fully. Programming is not that hard a concept to grasp, and Avernumscript is a very simple scripting system. I would have preferred a Python derivative, but this is still a very, very easy script language.

If a non-programming friend of mine (and not a computer/math geek at all) can sit down in front of BoA, with its documentation, and pick up a working knowledge of Avernumscript--enough to write workable town scripts and such, I'm not saying he could do a creature script off the bat--in a couple of hours, I can't say that I believe it's that hard.

quote:

BoA's current scripting system will never allow them to express those stories.
Not if they don't want to put in the effort, no.

I for one am not a natural programmer; I don't think that way. I have to put in a fairly large amount of effort to work at it--but I recognize the value of flexibility and utility over glossing over the important parts of a language.

quote:

Tools that translate a visual metaphor into script would help them.
Hiding the scripting language so they don't learn it doesn't help; it exacerbates the problem.

If you do not understand the language, you don't know what it can and cannot do.

quote:

What we have now only allows a small subset of the population to create a scenario.
The subset who want to put effort in and actually work at making a scenario, sure.

quote:

I'm not critizing anyone for not developing these tools - it would require a tremendous effort to do so.
Less than you'd think--I've already more or less completed what you outlined for a dialogue editor, minus the pwetty pictures. A custom item editor will be forthcoming, too.

I have one problem with these tool ideas, however, and it's a very simple one. Simplified tools lose functionality. If functionality is lost, then they aren't worth a damn.

quote:

The Creator is right about me - I'm not the best coder in the world, but I am stubborn. It took me three attempts to get the Missionary and Cannibals code in Quintessence working correctly. Not many people are as stubborn as I am.
And your determination shows through in your scenarios (I haven't played Quintessence--no BoE anymore--but I played your older ones). You may not have an intuitive grasp of it, but you're willing to work at it, and it makes for a better outcome.

quote:

Because of that, I'll add one very controversial statement: BoA will never achieve the level of success BoE enjoys, because it's too hard to script. Time will prove me right or wrong.
I agree. BoA's scripting takes a modicum of effort--hell, making towns and dungeons alone does now, even without the addition of scripting.

BoE's is simple but very limited and requires ridiculous workarounds. BoA's is slightly more difficult (and I'm not understating it when I say "slightly"--I apologize if I sound arrogant, but it's really very easy in comparison to most scripting languages), but far more powerful.

So people who want the utility of a useful program will go to BoA. People who want to make scenarios quickly and not worry about what they're missing will stick with BoE. I'm not saying that's wrong; I am saying that trying to make BoA like BoE isn't going to work.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:23 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

The things that I suggested are not dumbing down in any way - they're just putting a GUI onto the coding. I don't see what's so bad about that - I could whip something like that up in Java in about an hour and wouldn't lose any functionality.

Just because you can't do it without sacrificing functionality, it doesn't mean that someone else can't.

The GUI is what people want more than anything - they want a face on the code. There doesn't have to be anything lost by including it, and I don't see why think that there is any compromise of scripting power.
A BoE-style dialogue question in an hour? (That begs the question, why bother?)

I was not specific enough in what I said. The BoE dialogue editor idea wouldn't work; the other would work fine and it's something I've already done (I'm just hammering out bugs before releasing that, too).
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:23 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

The things that I suggested are not dumbing down in any way - they're just putting a GUI onto the coding. I don't see what's so bad about that - I could whip something like that up in Java in about an hour and wouldn't lose any functionality.

Just because you can't do it without sacrificing functionality, it doesn't mean that someone else can't.

The GUI is what people want more than anything - they want a face on the code. There doesn't have to be anything lost by including it, and I don't see why think that there is any compromise of scripting power.
A BoE-style dialogue question in an hour? (That begs the question, why bother?)

I was not specific enough in what I said. The BoE dialogue editor idea wouldn't work; the other would work fine and it's something I've already done (I'm just hammering out bugs before releasing that, too).
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:15 Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.
1) The program was already written in VB; all that was necessary was porting. I have stated that previously. The only thing I asked was whether I should port to Mac, given the problems.

2) It actually does support tabs; you've just got to look around. I hadn't found that in the system's controls.

3) "Use a decent language" is not a form of criticism that assists development of a better program, especially considering how I had said that I was using RB for reasons already outlined.

But of course--Djur must be right. How dare I question him. :rolleyes:

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 06:21: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
OK, folks, looks like I can port my tools to a Mac... in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:15 Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

How does my belief that the BASIC family of languages are poor have anything to do with you? You yourself said that the REALbasic toolkit doesn't allow tabbed controls -- to me, that's a pretty major flaw.

It's like if you said "I'm thinking of buying some nice Safeway brand cutlery," and I said "Buy something decent like Wusthof." The reasonable response would not be to shriek "WHY ARE YOU BEING SO OFFENSIVE? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M DOING FOR YOU?"

Kelandon is right. Your motives for posting this thread are not clear, since it seems that you're going to take any suggestions as insults.
1) The program was already written in VB; all that was necessary was porting. I have stated that previously. The only thing I asked was whether I should port to Mac, given the problems.

2) It actually does support tabs; you've just got to look around. I hadn't found that in the system's controls.

3) "Use a decent language" is not a form of criticism that assists development of a better program, especially considering how I had said that I was using RB for reasons already outlined.

But of course--Djur must be right. How dare I question him. :rolleyes:

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 06:21: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 13:55 Profile Homepage #22
quote:
Originally written by Morgan:

quote:
Show me a well-written scenario in which the writer was not a capable programmer. I seriously doubt that you can, with perhaps one or two exceptions.
And of course, you missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that you can do without programming. But I think we should be aiming for allowing people who are good writers but not necessarily excellent programmers to create scenarios as well as those who do both.
Certainly. Why else would I have conceived of the CallWizard idea for AvScript? Morgan, I never once said that a degree of simplification isn't good. But too great of an extent results in a nice wide stream of crap.

Code assistants make sense--they reduce time and also provide a reference for people looking to improve upon their knowledge. Something that codes FOR you, which is the primary thing I'm against (a node-editor script system, which has been mentioned previously), doesn't teach you.

quote:

quote:
Tell me--who's making the tools to make things easier for people? Seems like I'm the main one on the Windows side right now, and I'm working on going multiplatform.

What I am against are tools that abstract things to too great a degree. Dialogue editors are fine; my only problem with Kelandon's suggestion is one of programming complexity, not usefulness (well, that and my personal aesthetics, which don't involve that sort of thing).
The whole point of BoA full stop is to simplify programming for the less able. Are you actually suggesting that because BoA is simpler to use than say, C++, it has no right to exist? If we're using that logic, then we are already far, far down the supposed slippery slope.
Avernumscript is a scripting language. C++ is a programming language. It only makes sense that there is a level of simplification. In this case, it makes it manageable. In the concept that you folks seem to be arguing for, it makes it unmanageable.

quote:

quote:
I played BoE a long time ago, and very nearly stopped playing shortly afterwards, primarily because of lousy scenarios.
What you are describing is exactly the same for every artistic medium you care to mention. But was the invention of the printing press a good or a bad thing for literature? Sure, you had a lot more crap seeping through, but you also had a lot more good.
We've gone over this before. "Good" work comes from people who are both good writers/designers and good programmers. If the writing, designing, or programming are lacking, so is the scenario. A program can't make your scenario for you, no matter how much you might wish it could.

quote:
quote:
Editors to remove tedium? Sure. That's what AvDialogue2 is for. But editors that simply do things for a user who doesn't understand the principles behind them? No.
I don't even begin to understand the principles behind BoA, does that mean that I'm not qualified to make a scenario? Again with the elitism.
Frankly, yes, it does. If you cannot understand the scripting system, I don't see how you can grasp what possibilities it provides--and so the likelihood of you making any sort of scenario that's more than just playable is remote at best.

[ Sunday, November 21, 2004 13:57: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 13:55 Profile Homepage #22
quote:
Originally written by Morgan:

quote:
Show me a well-written scenario in which the writer was not a capable programmer. I seriously doubt that you can, with perhaps one or two exceptions.
And of course, you missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that you can do without programming. But I think we should be aiming for allowing people who are good writers but not necessarily excellent programmers to create scenarios as well as those who do both.
Certainly. Why else would I have conceived of the CallWizard idea for AvScript? Morgan, I never once said that a degree of simplification isn't good. But too great of an extent results in a nice wide stream of crap.

Code assistants make sense--they reduce time and also provide a reference for people looking to improve upon their knowledge. Something that codes FOR you, which is the primary thing I'm against (a node-editor script system, which has been mentioned previously), doesn't teach you.

quote:

quote:
Tell me--who's making the tools to make things easier for people? Seems like I'm the main one on the Windows side right now, and I'm working on going multiplatform.

What I am against are tools that abstract things to too great a degree. Dialogue editors are fine; my only problem with Kelandon's suggestion is one of programming complexity, not usefulness (well, that and my personal aesthetics, which don't involve that sort of thing).
The whole point of BoA full stop is to simplify programming for the less able. Are you actually suggesting that because BoA is simpler to use than say, C++, it has no right to exist? If we're using that logic, then we are already far, far down the supposed slippery slope.
Avernumscript is a scripting language. C++ is a programming language. It only makes sense that there is a level of simplification. In this case, it makes it manageable. In the concept that you folks seem to be arguing for, it makes it unmanageable.

quote:

quote:
I played BoE a long time ago, and very nearly stopped playing shortly afterwards, primarily because of lousy scenarios.
What you are describing is exactly the same for every artistic medium you care to mention. But was the invention of the printing press a good or a bad thing for literature? Sure, you had a lot more crap seeping through, but you also had a lot more good.
We've gone over this before. "Good" work comes from people who are both good writers/designers and good programmers. If the writing, designing, or programming are lacking, so is the scenario. A program can't make your scenario for you, no matter how much you might wish it could.

quote:
quote:
Editors to remove tedium? Sure. That's what AvDialogue2 is for. But editors that simply do things for a user who doesn't understand the principles behind them? No.
I don't even begin to understand the principles behind BoA, does that mean that I'm not qualified to make a scenario? Again with the elitism.
Frankly, yes, it does. If you cannot understand the scripting system, I don't see how you can grasp what possibilities it provides--and so the likelihood of you making any sort of scenario that's more than just playable is remote at best.

[ Sunday, November 21, 2004 13:57: Message edited by: Arenaqs ]
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Suggestions for Geneforge 3 in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 10:20 Profile Homepage #6
Did he after Geneforge? If so, I wish I was here.

(I so hated Geneforge.)
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum Editor
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 10:19 Profile Homepage #18
quote:
Originally written by Morgan:

[b]Let me try and evaluate your position here, Arenax. You're being so unbelievably elitist that you can't even begin to comprehend that there are different disciplines involved in designing a scenario, of which the actual programming is probably the least important.
Show me a well-written scenario in which the writer was not a capable programmer. I seriously doubt that you can, with perhaps one or two exceptions.

quote:
[qb]
And yet you maintain such an enormous ego that obviously believes that if somebody wants something that makes their job a little easier it must therefore follow that they are guilty of "dumbing down".[/b]
Tell me--who's making the tools to make things easier for people? Seems like I'm the main one on the Windows side right now, and I'm working on going multiplatform.

What I am against are tools that abstract things to too great a degree. Dialogue editors are fine; my only problem with Kelandon's suggestion is one of programming complexity, not usefulness (well, that and my personal aesthetics, which don't involve that sort of thing).

quote:

Like Kelandon said, I fail to see the problem with newbies creating scenarios. The very notion that you woulod hold such an idea as being undesirably is indicative of your incomprehensible elitism.
I played BoE a long time ago, and very nearly stopped playing shortly afterwards, primarily because of lousy scenarios. I beat Nephil's Gambit, Tatterdemalion, and the others good ones; what more was there to do besides make my own scenarios (which I did)? Not much, considering the pure agony most of the early scenarios were.

I have nothing against newbies making scenarios--but I've been around long enough not to have a problem with it. Others may.

quote:

Case in point - TM came to this community with Streila Spies, a pretty horrible scenario, yet his latest effort for BoE, NTH, is considered to be one of BoE's finest.
Wouldn't know, I don't have BoE anymore. However, from what I've seen, I agree with you so far.

quote:

Ok, so for every person like TM you have a lost_king or Vince Fizz.
Or four of them.

quote:

But I'd rather make things easier for newbies in the hope of one shining designer to break the mould than shut the doors completely to new blood, leaving a community to completely stagnate.
As would I--but creating dumbed-down tools isn't the answer. More effective methods of teaching how to use the software--better tutorials, etc--are.

Editors to remove tedium? Sure. That's what AvDialogue2 is for. But editors that simply do things for a user who doesn't understand the principles behind them? No.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Creating New Editors for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 10:19 Profile Homepage #18
quote:
Originally written by Morgan:

[b]Let me try and evaluate your position here, Arenax. You're being so unbelievably elitist that you can't even begin to comprehend that there are different disciplines involved in designing a scenario, of which the actual programming is probably the least important.
Show me a well-written scenario in which the writer was not a capable programmer. I seriously doubt that you can, with perhaps one or two exceptions.

quote:
[qb]
And yet you maintain such an enormous ego that obviously believes that if somebody wants something that makes their job a little easier it must therefore follow that they are guilty of "dumbing down".[/b]
Tell me--who's making the tools to make things easier for people? Seems like I'm the main one on the Windows side right now, and I'm working on going multiplatform.

What I am against are tools that abstract things to too great a degree. Dialogue editors are fine; my only problem with Kelandon's suggestion is one of programming complexity, not usefulness (well, that and my personal aesthetics, which don't involve that sort of thing).

quote:

Like Kelandon said, I fail to see the problem with newbies creating scenarios. The very notion that you woulod hold such an idea as being undesirably is indicative of your incomprehensible elitism.
I played BoE a long time ago, and very nearly stopped playing shortly afterwards, primarily because of lousy scenarios. I beat Nephil's Gambit, Tatterdemalion, and the others good ones; what more was there to do besides make my own scenarios (which I did)? Not much, considering the pure agony most of the early scenarios were.

I have nothing against newbies making scenarios--but I've been around long enough not to have a problem with it. Others may.

quote:

Case in point - TM came to this community with Streila Spies, a pretty horrible scenario, yet his latest effort for BoE, NTH, is considered to be one of BoE's finest.
Wouldn't know, I don't have BoE anymore. However, from what I've seen, I agree with you so far.

quote:

Ok, so for every person like TM you have a lost_king or Vince Fizz.
Or four of them.

quote:

But I'd rather make things easier for newbies in the hope of one shining designer to break the mould than shut the doors completely to new blood, leaving a community to completely stagnate.
As would I--but creating dumbed-down tools isn't the answer. More effective methods of teaching how to use the software--better tutorials, etc--are.

Editors to remove tedium? Sure. That's what AvDialogue2 is for. But editors that simply do things for a user who doesn't understand the principles behind them? No.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Suggestions for Geneforge 3 in General
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 08:02 Profile Homepage #4
Does he ever even really read them then, or just randomly post stuff? :-/
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00

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