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Originally written by Adagio ma non tanto:

Is the full version of Geneforge so substanially worse than the demo in plot? I dislike the engine, but the story didn't seem very bad. It was a definite step up from E3/A3.

—Alorael, who has seen how a good plot can start to fall apart a la A2. Geneforge didn't seem to have chapters that could discombobulate so easily, though.

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Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

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Originally written by Arenaqs:

Which is more important: a well-playing scenario or one with a good story? I have to say the former, myself.

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This is, at best, a self-defeating question. One cannot be much without the other. If you have a completely defunct story, you could have the best gameplay in the world, and you would still end up with a fluke. Same goes for if you have totally horrible gameplay- your story isn't conveyed at all.

You need story in Blades, or else things get boring very quickly.

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Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

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Originally written by Arenaqs:

Which is more important: a well-playing scenario or one with a good story? I have to say the former, myself.

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This is, at best, a self-defeating question. One cannot be much without the other. If you have a completely defunct story, you could have the best gameplay in the world, and you would still end up with a fluke. Same goes for if you have totally horrible gameplay- your story isn't conveyed at all.

You need story in Blades, or else things get boring very quickly.

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Originally written by Mortimer:

Well I suppose it doesn't really matter if Arenax agrees or not. I hope he isn't our only resource as a add-on designer so hopefully someone else will take it up as a project.

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Originally written by Mortimer:

Well I suppose it doesn't really matter if Arenax agrees or not. I hope he isn't our only resource as a add-on designer so hopefully someone else will take it up as a project.

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Originally written by Dastal:

I am a BoA scenario designer. I also happen to be a senior in high school, and am applying to college. I also happen to be taking a bunch of ultra-advanced courses, some of which are a lot of work, and some of which are relatively less so. I also have a girlfriend, and a bunch of friends, and play sports, and do a bunch of other things which take up some of my time. I also try to get a little sleep here and there as well. (This is all, in fact true about me, but it could just as easily be a lawyer, or a nurse, or a trash collector, or, most relevantly, a college/grad student. Perhaps even more so for a college or grad student.) That gives me a total of, oh, five hours a week, or so, to work on my scenario.

Now, I could spend that five hours writing an amazing story, creating cool graphics, thinking up puzzles, or otherwise doing stuff to make my scenario really cool. Alternately, I could spend hours and hours scripting the diaglogue. Incidentally, instead of writing expressive dialogue that immerses you into the story and really makes it good, since programming the dialogue is hard and tedious, I'm going to shorten the dialogue as much as I can since I not only have less time to write it, but I also want to be as sucinct as possible. Since dialogue is so tedius, how much time am I going to be willing to spend on cool puzzles? Yes, I could do all of those things, and not release anything for a year, but I'll be honest, I don't have the motivation for that.

So what has just happened? The scenario that could have been amazing has just become a crap scenario. Why? Not because the tool has deprived me of the ability to learn to write code. Oh no! Actually, because I spent so much time cranking out the code since I didn't have the tool that I couldn't devote time to other elements of scenario creation.

That, of course, means designing a good scenario requires that you have much more time on your hands than is normal. I find that those kinds of people have much less relevant things to say than bussier people.

Oh, and if I did have that kind of time, why would I design a scenario for Blades of Avernum? Why not create my own game, talk with some shareware distribution company, like Ambrosia, and release my own game, and not only make money, but also not have my ideas confined to what is, ultimately, a relatively simplistic engine in the bargain?

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Originally written by Dastal:

I am a BoA scenario designer. I also happen to be a senior in high school, and am applying to college. I also happen to be taking a bunch of ultra-advanced courses, some of which are a lot of work, and some of which are relatively less so. I also have a girlfriend, and a bunch of friends, and play sports, and do a bunch of other things which take up some of my time. I also try to get a little sleep here and there as well. (This is all, in fact true about me, but it could just as easily be a lawyer, or a nurse, or a trash collector, or, most relevantly, a college/grad student. Perhaps even more so for a college or grad student.) That gives me a total of, oh, five hours a week, or so, to work on my scenario.

Now, I could spend that five hours writing an amazing story, creating cool graphics, thinking up puzzles, or otherwise doing stuff to make my scenario really cool. Alternately, I could spend hours and hours scripting the diaglogue. Incidentally, instead of writing expressive dialogue that immerses you into the story and really makes it good, since programming the dialogue is hard and tedious, I'm going to shorten the dialogue as much as I can since I not only have less time to write it, but I also want to be as sucinct as possible. Since dialogue is so tedius, how much time am I going to be willing to spend on cool puzzles? Yes, I could do all of those things, and not release anything for a year, but I'll be honest, I don't have the motivation for that.

So what has just happened? The scenario that could have been amazing has just become a crap scenario. Why? Not because the tool has deprived me of the ability to learn to write code. Oh no! Actually, because I spent so much time cranking out the code since I didn't have the tool that I couldn't devote time to other elements of scenario creation.

That, of course, means designing a good scenario requires that you have much more time on your hands than is normal. I find that those kinds of people have much less relevant things to say than bussier people.

Oh, and if I did have that kind of time, why would I design a scenario for Blades of Avernum? Why not create my own game, talk with some shareware distribution company, like Ambrosia, and release my own game, and not only make money, but also not have my ideas confined to what is, ultimately, a relatively simplistic engine in the bargain?

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Originally written by Mind:

"Interestingly enough, it's you who comes out sounding like a raving moron, not TM, because I disagree with you."

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TM ill just ignore what you just said to stop my INSANE KILLING RAGE! Lol I really hate the pokemon games, they are no comparision to geneforge,+every pokemon game ive played is pretty much exactly the same each time, wow such fun plx

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Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

The consensus has been the latter for a very long time. It's one of the major points of contention between the community and Vogel.

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Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

The consensus has been the latter for a very long time. It's one of the major points of contention between the community and Vogel.

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Originally written by Wilfred A. Spurts:

...or, maybe, the menagerie of other masterpieces that have been made in your absense...
(...and there are plenty...)

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Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

Um, part of that decision is the decision whether REALbasic is sufficient. You said as much.

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Originally written by Arenax:

Should I bite the bullet and start figuring out REALbasic in order to port AvScript and AvDialogue to Macintosh?

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Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

Um, part of that decision is the decision whether REALbasic is sufficient. You said as much.

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Originally written by Arenax:

Should I bite the bullet and start figuring out REALbasic in order to port AvScript and AvDialogue to Macintosh?

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Originally written by Imban:

Dude. Undead Valley sucks because Micael seems to not have half an idea of what makes a scenario fun, not because he can't program worth a damn.

Playable scenarios also don't require huge, shiny innovations of coding. Go back to RPG Maker 2003 and die there.

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Originally written by Imban:

Dude. Undead Valley sucks because Micael seems to not have half an idea of what makes a scenario fun, not because he can't program worth a damn.

Playable scenarios also don't require huge, shiny innovations of coding. Go back to RPG Maker 2003 and die there.

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Originally written by Silence in Motion:

Arenax, it's apparent that you won't be satisfied here unless you get the last word, so I'll write one more thing here, and then remain silent. If you want to continue to pick apart what I and others write line by line without looking at the meaning of what we write as a whole, so be it.

You have points of view of coding, scenario creation, etc. I have different points of view on the subject.

I believe that many people what to tell a story. Anything (in this case scripting) that gets in the way of telling that story reduces the chance they will be able to do so.

You don't belive that. That's OK.

There is NO right or wrong here. The best we can do is agree to disagree.

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Originally written by Silence in Motion:

Arenax, it's apparent that you won't be satisfied here unless you get the last word, so I'll write one more thing here, and then remain silent. If you want to continue to pick apart what I and others write line by line without looking at the meaning of what we write as a whole, so be it.

You have points of view of coding, scenario creation, etc. I have different points of view on the subject.

I believe that many people what to tell a story. Anything (in this case scripting) that gets in the way of telling that story reduces the chance they will be able to do so.

You don't belive that. That's OK.

There is NO right or wrong here. The best we can do is agree to disagree.

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Originally written by Lord Bob:

Frankly, I think that if these tools make it easier for all the duncecaps who think that the dragons of Avernum are Motrax, Khoth, and Trogdor, so what? There are plenty of OMG LUK AT MEE!!!!!! scenarios out there for BoE, and the classical reaction has to been either to flame to bits/wait until they go away, or if the newbie shows any promise to let them work it out.

These editors make it easier for the idiots, but it also makes it easier for the people who are learning like to get their feet wet before the plunge, and for the veterans who just want a quicker, less tedious way of doing things. This, to me, justifies the possibility that we'll have to ignore a couple more hunks of dreck than we do right now.

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