Tell me if you like programming. . .

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AuthorTopic: Tell me if you like programming. . .
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Wednesday, November 17 2004 08:25 Profile #25
I'll give you a few examples of how Javascript is useful. On Invision forums, there is a "Fast Reply" feature -- you hit a button, a little form pops out so that you can type a reply. If that was implemented with a roundtrip, it would take longer, especially considering the SQL queries, database connections, etc.

GMail is another example. Its speed is already legendary. Why? Because for many operations, it doesn't query the server -- it does things locally with Javascript, only connecting to the server to save its status.

Java applets are a messy way to handle things; they're entirely disjoint from the rest of the HTML document.

Oh, and OpenOffice isn't written in Java. It has an optional Java VM included, but the application itself is primarily written in C++.

If you're not using C++ as an OOP language, you aren't using C++ properly. Same with Python (but less so).

As of April 2004, Pew research found that about 55% of adult Internet users have broadband access anywhere and about 40% have it at home. That's a good number, and it's been a few months since then. Even so, a conservative estimate still puts the number of sole broadband users at at least 40%. That is a substantial chunk of the market, and one that from anecdotal evidence I think won't shrink very much. You're getting down to the people who feel that their current dialup expenses are all they wish to pay.

And, finally, maybe repeated POST requests are fine for YOU, but the server might think otherwise once you get a substantial user base. When you're getting a million+ pageviews a day, each request shaved off may be a significant drop in your load average and total traffic.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
tbg10101
Warrior
Member # 3698
 written Wednesday, November 17 2004 12:50 Profile Homepage #26
Just for you guys to know. . .

The "Java" choice includes Java variants. OK? (JavaScript, etc.)

[ Wednesday, November 17, 2004 12:59: Message edited by: Tbg10101 ]

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Posts: 179 | Registered: Tuesday, November 18 2003 08:00
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Friday, November 19 2004 05:54 Profile Homepage #27
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

I'll give you a few examples of how Javascript is useful. On Invision forums, there is a "Fast Reply" feature -- you hit a button, a little form pops out so that you can type a reply. If that was implemented with a roundtrip, it would take longer, especially considering the SQL queries, database connections, etc.
Whoa. I've used Invision forums for a while, but never saw that. Not bad (awkward if you're used to the other way, but not bad).

Show me where I said it wouldn't take longer to do a lot of things. I said that the speed decrease isn't important. I've had broadband for going on five years and have little to no sympathy for 56Kers. :P

quote:

GMail is another example. Its speed is already legendary. Why? Because for many operations, it doesn't query the server -- it does things locally with Javascript, only connecting to the server to save its status.
I haven't checked out GMail much--just got one the other day--but it's not bad. I don't care for the way it works, however; its UI irritates me.

quote:

Java applets are a messy way to handle things; they're entirely disjoint from the rest of the HTML document.
But you can do more. It's like BoE versus BoA: BoE/JavaScript are easy and "clean," but not as powerful.

quote:

Oh, and OpenOffice isn't written in Java. It has an optional Java VM included, but the application itself is primarily written in C++.
Okay, so that's why older versions of OpenOffice throw Java exceptions when using some functions from the program (like, y'know, saving--a bug still unfixed on some computers in more recent releases).

quote:

If you're not using C++ as an OOP language, you aren't using C++ properly. Same with Python (but less so).
OOP is a lousy way to work if you're working alone. It's definitely better practice in projects with other people involved, sure--but I find it's easier to read structured code than OOP and the speed difference that is sometimes offered as a benefit don't seem to exist--either in OpenGL applications or data modification.

When I do use OOP, I don't have a reason to super-segment everything. It's one issue I always had with Java--the idea that EVERYTHING should be encapsulated strikes me as wrong.

quote:

As of April 2004, Pew research found that about 55% of adult Internet users have broadband access anywhere and about 40% have it at home. That's a good number, and it's been a few months since then. Even so, a conservative estimate still puts the number of sole broadband users at at least 40%. That is a substantial chunk of the market, and one that from anecdotal evidence I think won't shrink very much. You're getting down to the people who feel that their current dialup expenses are all they wish to pay.
The price of cable and DSL are going down. That market is going to explode.

quote:

And, finally, maybe repeated POST requests are fine for YOU, but the server might think otherwise once you get a substantial user base. When you're getting a million+ pageviews a day, each request shaved off may be a significant drop in your load average and total traffic.[/QB]
I've had pages max out at about ten thousand a day on an (ugh--this you can't blame me for!) average home computer running as a server on my school's T1.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Friday, November 19 2004 12:19 Profile Homepage #28
quote:
Originally written by Arenax:

Show me where I said it wouldn't take longer to do a lot of things. I said that the speed decrease isn't important. I've had broadband for going on five years and have little to no sympathy for 56Kers. :P
Most of the time is taken in querying servers. Broadband doesn't make that significantly faster.

quote:
The price of cable and DSL are going down. That market is going to explode.
Possibly. The price of dialup is also going down, meaning that a lot of people who previously couldn't afford internet access at all will be taking up dialup.

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Hunted!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Arancaytar
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
 written Friday, November 19 2004 15:03 Profile Homepage #29
Actually, that comparison doesn't work. Any designer (I don't qualify, but I've used both) will tell you that while BoA scripting may require a little more training, it is by far the "cleaner" tool, if by that you mean sensible structure, flexibility and adaptability.

Look at a BoE town. You have 50 nodes that are ordered by an invisible, unchanging index, not in the order they call each other. After some editing, each node will call another one in an impenetrable net of references and jumps.
How is that "easier" to handle than a BoA script, for anyone except someone designing an Ogre Territory? :P

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Sturg
Master
Member # 4614
 written Friday, November 19 2004 17:10 Profile Homepage #30
100 nodes.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Friday, November 19 2004 17:38 Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by From nether heats and burning waste:

Actually, that comparison doesn't work. Any designer (I don't qualify, but I've used both) will tell you that while BoA scripting may require a little more training, it is by far the "cleaner" tool, if by that you mean sensible structure, flexibility and adaptability.

Look at a BoE town. You have 50 nodes that are ordered by an invisible, unchanging index, not in the order they call each other. After some editing, each node will call another one in an impenetrable net of references and jumps.
How is that "easier" to handle than a BoA script, for anyone except someone designing an Ogre Territory? :P
I dunno--and people STILL want a node editor.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
UA
Infiltrator
Member # 154
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 08:14 Profile #32
I use '98.

There should be QBasic there, too, and you might as well add HTML, XML, ECMAScript and CSS, although they're not exactly scripting or programming languages.

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Inconsistently backward.
SWOH. IM, PATF, ND.
Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
tbg10101
Warrior
Member # 3698
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 08:38 Profile Homepage #33
In REALBasic you can do XML . . .

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Hi. Why is the universe so BIG? Why am I human? How come hot dogs come in packages of 10 and buns 8? This will all be solved in time young padawan. Your quest for the ultimate Aztec manuer is coming to a climax. May the force be with you!!!
······························································
This is where I want you to click! Rate me! Ha Ha
Check out my GF 1, 2 and 3 Helper!
Ceck out some cool Mac OS X Apps that were made by me here!
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Posts: 179 | Registered: Tuesday, November 18 2003 08:00
heron-wielder
Apprentice
Member # 2509
 written Sunday, November 21 2004 18:26 Profile #34
Are there any good online tutorials for programming using a macintosh? I'm on OS X and i really want to be able to write programs.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Sunday, January 19 2003 08:00
UA
Infiltrator
Member # 154
 written Monday, November 22 2004 06:28 Profile #35
quote:
HTML is a markup language. It is entirely static and possesses no facility for conditional logic; thus, it is not a programming language. Javascript, on the other hand, is.
Perhaps so, but it's just another statistic. Might as well ask people if they do it. Furthermore, Javascript is scripting, not programming, methinks.

quote:
(Yes, I know, there are many valid uses of JavaScript. But I haven't found one I can either do without or do better in something else.)
How about gmail, for one. Unless I'm much mistaken, gmail uses Javascript libraries to load XML files dynamically from the server, removing the wasted time involved in loading repeated HTML information. I even made an XML powered web-based chatroom a while back; the speed difference was incredible (and that was on localhost).

quote:
Javascript is a real boon, unless you WANT to do a POST for every single local state change.
Have you heard of the querystring?

quote:
2) Let me see if I understand your logic. Because PHP isn't supported on free sites...Javascript is better? That makes no sense.
I agree with you totally. Why the hell would you pay for a PHP-supporting server if Javascript is free and better?
quote:
3) Java beats the tar out of Javascript and, though more difficult to use, has the advantage of being useful in more than a scant few respects.
It also manages to be slow as hell on my aged machines. Also, it is overkill to use on webpages, while it may have genuine standalone uses.
quote:
Java is very easy to code. Since I have never had occasion to write in C++ (nor learn how to), I wouldn't be able to compare that. However, I doubt that C++ can be a lot simpler than what I'm doing now.
Perhaps, but the general point of 'easy' scripting is that it has some sort of downside (e.g. performance), raw flexibility (advanced memory handling?), etc.
quote:
As more than three quarters of my current sites are on free providers without PHP support... yes, by my logic Javascript is a lot better. There are people around who choose to spend their meager resources on other things than web domains.
No, that does not make PHP worse than JavaScript. It simply means that by comparison of what you need and how much each one costs (barring the fact that PHP is technically free), you find JavaScript more suitable. That does not make JavaScript globally better than PHP.

quote:
Just for you guys to know. . .

The "Java" choice includes Java variants. OK? (JavaScript, etc.)
NO. NO. Java/ECMAScript is COMPLETELY different from Java. Heck, I doubt Java/ECMAScript even IS a Java variant. In fact, JavaScript's real name is ECMAScript - I believe the name was changed due to legal issues or something. JavaScript is just the common term.

quote:
But you can do more. It's like BoE versus BoA: BoE/JavaScript are easy and "clean," but not as powerful.
That's pretty rediculous. JavaScript is generally equatable to the power of BoA scripting (keeping in mind that they were designed for different things).

IIRC, programming languages include non-RAD (i.e. not realBASIC) tools that compile to executables. Scripting languages are languages that are RAD tools that compile to executables, or languages that require an interpreter (e.g. PHP).

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 06:30: Message edited by: Lemon-Flavoured Oracle ]

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Inconsistently backward.
SWOH. IM, PATF, ND.
Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Monday, November 22 2004 08:35 Profile #36
> Perhaps so, but it's just another statistic. Might as well ask people if they do it.>
> Furthermore, Javascript is scripting, not programming, methinks.
What's the difference? You can make standalone applications with Javascript; it's just a case of getting the right libraries together.

>Have you heard of the querystring?
Yes. Let me refactor, then: a POST or a GET. They're both roundtrips.
> Perhaps, but the general point of 'easy'
> scripting is that it has some sort of downside
> (e.g. performance),
Really good optimizing JIT compilers for Java are as fast as C++. Sometimes, they're faster.
> raw flexibility (advanced memory handling?)
You mean pointer arithmetic? Please, it's 2004. Good practice uses as little pointer arithmetic as possible. With today's computers, mucking with unterminated raw data is foolish and atavistic.

> NO. NO. Java/ECMAScript is COMPLETELY different
> from Java. Heck, I doubt Java/ECMAScript even IS
> a Java variant.
It isn't.

> In fact, JavaScript's real name is ECMAScript -
> I believe the name was changed due to legal
> issues or something.
ECMAscript is the official scripting language of the ECMA standards body, more or less. Javascript is a superset of ECMAscript that includes the DOM and other extra functionality.

> JavaScript is just the common term.
It was and still is Javascript.

> That's pretty rediculous. JavaScript is generally
> equatable to the power of BoA scripting (keeping > in mind that they were designed for different
> things).
Um, Javascript has real string manipulation. It has arrays. It is a complete, capable programming language, and BoA is not.
Seriously. As far as languages go, Javascript far outstrips Avernumscript.

> IIRC, programming languages include non-RAD
> (i.e. not realBASIC) tools that compile to
> executables. Scripting languages are languages
> that are RAD tools that compile to executables,
> or languages that require an interpreter (e.g.
> PHP).

Wikipedia disagrees and so do I. My definition is that a programming language is a language used to develop standalone applications, while a scripting language is used as an extension language for a pre-existing application. An example is Lua in Baldur's Gate -- that's a scripting language. When used in browsers, Javascript is also a scripting language. When used standalone, it is a programming language.

Programming tells the computer what to do; scripting tells an application what to do.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Monday, November 22 2004 09:27 Profile Homepage #37
AUGH! Djur, no agreeing with me. It makes me feel icky.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Monday, November 22 2004 18:01 Profile Homepage #38
quote:
Originally written by heron-wielder:
Are there any good online tutorials for programming using a macintosh? I'm on OS X and i really want to be able to write programs.
Any thoughts on this? I'd like to start teaching myself C or C++, whichever I can manage, over Winter Break, which is coming up in a few weeks. Are there any specific books that anyone recommends (preferably cheap, say $30 or less) or online tutorials that are particularly useful?

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Sturg
Master
Member # 4614
 written Monday, November 22 2004 18:21 Profile Homepage #39
I kinda like this one for C++.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, November 22 2004 18:33 Profile #40
I've personally never learned much from an online tutorial. I learned C++ primarily through one or two books. After I got the hang of the actual language I learned to use and add on to several libraries.

The book I read was entitled "Learn C++ in 24 hours," and it did a very good job of teaching the basics in a short amount of time, although the title is misleading ( and morbidly cheesy ). It took me about two weeks to learn up till and including the full power of inheritance (except maybe multiple inheritance; I can't really remember). The only thing it left out was templating, which I learned through a class, and through screwing around with the STL.

Also MSDN can at times be very helpful, once you know a language.

Of course, these are just what I use(d). There have to be better resources out there.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
wz. As
Infiltrator
Member # 3040
 written Monday, November 22 2004 18:35 Profile #41
I'm currently trying to teach myself Cocoa with Objective-C. Try Cocoadev, it seems very comprehensive.

[ Monday, November 22, 2004 18:37: Message edited by: wz. arsenic ]

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5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0...
Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00
UA
Infiltrator
Member # 154
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 06:36 Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Walker, Texas Corpse:

>What's the difference? You can make standalone
>applications with Javascript; it's just a case
>of getting the right libraries together.
Why would you want to, though, when there's something more powerful like C around.

>You mean pointer arithmetic? Please, it's 2004.
>Good practice uses as little pointer arithmetic
>as possible. With today's computers, mucking
>with unterminated raw data is foolish and
>atavistic.
Can you hook onto ("take over") other (Win32) applications in Java?
Come to think of it, can you do that in Linux variants.

>It isn't.
That clarification was unneccesary, since I already knew it wasn't. I just don't like to say 'isn't' because then my loss of credibility would suffer more damage than if I'd just said 'doubt'.

>ECMAscript is the official scripting language o
>the ECMA standards body, more or less.
>Javascript is a superset of ECMAscript that
>includes the DOM and other extra functionality.
Thank you for that clarification.

>Um, Javascript has real string manipulation. It
>has arrays. It is a complete, capable
>programming language, and BoA is not.
>Seriously. As far as languages go, Javascript
>far outstrips Avernumscript.
Oh, right. I don't really know Avernumscript.

quote:
Wikipedia disagrees and so do I. My definition is that a programming language is a language used to develop standalone applications, while a scripting language is used as an extension language for a pre-existing application. An example is Lua in Baldur's Gate -- that's a scripting language. When used in browsers, Javascript is also a scripting language. When used standalone, it is a programming language.
That's a good definition. I usually use my instinct when telling between scripting and programming so I wasn't really that good at describing the differences.


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Inconsistently backward.
SWOH. IM, PATF, ND.
Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 06:54 Profile #43
> Why would you want to, though, when there's
> something more powerful like C around.
"More powerful" has no innate meaning in programming languages. When it comes to raw logic, there's nothing that C can do that Javascript can't. The only thing that makes C more "powerful" is the fact that it's sort of a lingua franca -- most system libraries are written in it.
However, most of those libraries can be bound to other languages. When you do that, you can then take advantage of the system-level access of C while garnering the benefits of a high-level, safe language.

> Can you hook onto ("take over") other (Win32) applications in Java?
> Come to think of it, can you do that in Linux variants.
Yes, if a suitable automation system (COM, etc.) is present. Anything C can do, Java can do.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
UA
Infiltrator
Member # 154
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 10:37 Profile #44
If I'm supposed to listen to you, why don't I just do Visual Basic and be done with it.

And I don't like Java's filename enforcement.

[ Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:38: Message edited by: Lemon-Flavoured Oracle ]

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Inconsistently backward.
SWOH. IM, PATF, ND.
Posts: 612 | Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 12:45 Profile Homepage #45
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by heron-wielder:
Are there any good online tutorials for programming using a macintosh? I'm on OS X and i really want to be able to write programs.
Any thoughts on this? I'd like to start teaching myself C or C++, whichever I can manage, over Winter Break, which is coming up in a few weeks. Are there any specific books that anyone recommends (preferably cheap, say $30 or less) or online tutorials that are particularly useful?
Start with console programming. I recommend the Eclipse IDE (it may not be on Mac; it is on PC/Linux). Console programming will give you a feel for C++ (start with it, it's easier to work backwards to C in my experience). Then, when you're better at it, you can start in on GUIs.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
Arenax
Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 12:48 Profile Homepage #46
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

If I'm supposed to listen to you, why don't I just do Visual Basic and be done with it.

And I don't like Java's filename enforcement.
Let's go over this again--anything you can do in Java or C++, I can do in VB/RB (even if it'd make me feel icky to try).

VB (and REALbasic, which is basically a cross-platform VB6), despite what you say, is a perfectly good language if you use it for the right things. It makes a lot of sense to use it for simple GUI-driven applications.

But since it's not l33t, I'm sure you must automatically hate it.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00
EDWARD, HAMMER OF THE SCOTS
Warrior
Member # 5091
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 13:47 Profile #47
quote:
Originally written by Lemon-Flavoured Oracle:

If I'm supposed to listen to you, why don't I just do Visual Basic and be done with it.

And I don't like Java's filename enforcement.
I don't even like Java. I'm just stating facts.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
wz. As
Infiltrator
Member # 3040
 written Tuesday, November 23 2004 19:14 Profile #48
Anyone looking to learn programming for Mac OS X should definitely check out

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjectiveC/ObjC.pdf

I'm finding it very useful.

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5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0...
Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00
tbg10101
Warrior
Member # 3698
 written Wednesday, November 24 2004 15:28 Profile Homepage #49
I dunno, I think that REALBasic is easier. You can make apps just as powerful in RB as in Obj. C. . .

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Hi. Why is the universe so BIG? Why am I human? How come hot dogs come in packages of 10 and buns 8? This will all be solved in time young padawan. Your quest for the ultimate Aztec manuer is coming to a climax. May the force be with you!!!
······························································
This is where I want you to click! Rate me! Ha Ha
Check out my GF 1, 2 and 3 Helper!
Ceck out some cool Mac OS X Apps that were made by me here!
10101 Software - You can take my iMac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the wireless mouse!
Posts: 179 | Registered: Tuesday, November 18 2003 08:00

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