Creating New Editors for BoA
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Monday, November 22 2004 09:38
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quote:Well, now I get the dubious honor of agreeing with Vogel. I want something that plays well over a good story. A good story is secondary to something that plays well. Why not just make a graphical version of Inform if you want to "tell a story"? Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Monday, November 22 2004 11:50
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oh where, oh where has my scenario gone I've chopped and I've hacked Oh where, oh where has my scenario gone I've edited and and programmed My tools lie around They grow out of bounds A million abound In masses and rounds Oh how I despair to see tools everywhere But not a single scenario is there. Stop this tools nonsense people and give me something to play. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3610
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written Monday, November 22 2004 12:38
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I am a BoA scenario designer. I also happen to be a senior in high school, and am applying to college. I also happen to be taking a bunch of ultra-advanced courses, some of which are a lot of work, and some of which are relatively less so. I also have a girlfriend, and a bunch of friends, and play sports, and do a bunch of other things which take up some of my time. I also try to get a little sleep here and there as well. (This is all, in fact true about me, but it could just as easily be a lawyer, or a nurse, or a trash collector, or, most relevantly, a college/grad student. Perhaps even more so for a college or grad student.) That gives me a total of, oh, five hours a week, or so, to work on my scenario. Now, I could spend that five hours writing an amazing story, creating cool graphics, thinking up puzzles, or otherwise doing stuff to make my scenario really cool. Alternately, I could spend hours and hours scripting the diaglogue. Incidentally, instead of writing expressive dialogue that immerses you into the story and really makes it good, since programming the dialogue is hard and tedious, I'm going to shorten the dialogue as much as I can since I not only have less time to write it, but I also want to be as sucinct as possible. Since dialogue is so tedius, how much time am I going to be willing to spend on cool puzzles? Yes, I could do all of those things, and not release anything for a year, but I'll be honest, I don't have the motivation for that. So what has just happened? The scenario that could have been amazing has just become a crap scenario. Why? Not because the tool has deprived me of the ability to learn to write code. Oh no! Actually, because I spent so much time cranking out the code since I didn't have the tool that I couldn't devote time to other elements of scenario creation. That, of course, means designing a good scenario requires that you have much more time on your hands than is normal. I find that those kinds of people have much less relevant things to say than bussier people. Oh, and if I did have that kind of time, why would I design a scenario for Blades of Avernum? Why not create my own game, talk with some shareware distribution company, like Ambrosia, and release my own game, and not only make money, but also not have my ideas confined to what is, ultimately, a relatively simplistic engine in the bargain? Posts: 129 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 643
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written Monday, November 22 2004 13:01
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Well I suppose it doesn't really matter if Arenax agrees or not. I hope he isn't our only resource as a add-on designer so hopefully someone else will take it up as a project. -------------------- Fine Meal is people!!! Posts: 289 | Registered: Saturday, February 16 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Monday, November 22 2004 13:33
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quote:Dastal: You described my life, minus one detail: I'm a high-school junior. But I also play football and am active in drama. If a scenario is important enough to you, you can make time for it. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Monday, November 22 2004 13:35
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quote:Djur and I have outlined a way it MIGHT work in the Lyceum chat. It's intriguing as a programming challenge if nothing else. I might break my rule about not making something I won't use for it, simply as a curiosity as to whether I can do it. I might put it on my list of things to do--after the ones that are useful for everyone, that is, and not just the newbish-types. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, November 22 2004 14:00
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quote:This is, at best, a self-defeating question. One cannot be much without the other. If you have a completely defunct story, you could have the best gameplay in the world, and you would still end up with a fluke. Same goes for if you have totally horrible gameplay- your story isn't conveyed at all. You need story in Blades, or else things get boring very quickly. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Monday, November 22 2004 14:13
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quote:Sure--I'm not debating that. But even a serviceable story will carry great gameplay. I also agree that the reverse is true; however, I play for gameplay--puzzles, strategy, etc.--more than for story. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Monday, November 22 2004 18:54
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There are a great many elements of gameplay that are not reliant upon coding. Simplistic coding does not equal bad gameplay. Good coding does not equal good gameplay. And maybe you missed what I said earlier re: Brett? Sure, he's determined. He'll spend hours on that code if he has to. But what if he doesn't have to? Well, he can get it done quicker, end up less frustrated, be more likely to finish, and more likely to start another when he's done. I'll spell it out. As is, I very much doubt Brett will ever make a BoA scenario. If there were some tool to make the job easier? Maybe. And even if you don't get amazing coding, you still get Brett's characters, his dungeon design, his puzzles, etc. And if there's another Brett Bixler out there? We want him designing, don't we? -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 643
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written Monday, November 22 2004 23:45
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quote:Well I'm happy your willing to consider trying it, even if you don't agree and seeing as your not going to let up on your side of the arguement I would recommend everyone else accept this as well, I mean really most of us have been argueing the same thing over the last 3 pages, both have valid points and are right in some instances, how about we leave it at that? -------------------- Fine Meal is people!!! Posts: 289 | Registered: Saturday, February 16 2002 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 04:36
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I don't understand the argument that bad scenarios are horribly detremental. Nobody forces anyone to play ANY scenario. If a scenario is bad, don't play it. We already have a few decent scenarios, but hardly any scenarios at all relative to what we should have. If you are so averse to playing poor scenarios, do not play them. Read the reviews on Spiderweb and the Lyceum to make an informed decision about what to and not to play. No harm is done unless the harm is inflicted upon yourself. There can be no net harm with bad scenarios. Here is the deal. I do not have much time for much scenario design anymore. Seriously, any tool to make the process easier would increase the rate at which I can release a scenario. This may sound self-absorbed, but I see that as a net positive to the community. Arenax -- There are people out there who have a different skill set than you. You might find certain things easy, other people do not. Better tools will allow people to overcome their limitations and be able to write things comparatively well. Remember that most people are visual learners. Furthermore, what I find ironic is that you seem to be the expert (in your mind) on making a good scenario when you have never actually made anything like it. Sure, you can program, so can I. You can probably even program better than I can because of my inherent specialization. Nonetheless, you yourself admit that there is a different skill set for writing scenarios. I just don't think you realize what it is. I speak from experience in saying that excellent coding skills is not it. Most of good scenario design is utter tedium. Only in a few places does advanced coding become supremely important. See past yourself and your selfish notions and realize that people will benefit from a more visual and intuitive tool. So what, it masks a few things? That's fine. People still have the option to move away from the tools to a more advanced raw tool and they inherently will if they want their scenarios to be better. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 10:47
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...You guys are STILL jumping on me after I've said I'll even take a crack at writing the kind of tool you want? Good God. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 11:49
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..and here we go again. ^^ -------------------- The Great Mister kommari@gmail.com[/url] Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 12:18
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Not really. I'm sick of arguing and being called an elitist for daring to have differing standards and opinions. (Being a Republican here is bad enough.) So I just want to know. I've given up arguing with you, I've agreed even to try writing the program YOU want instead of the one I want. So why are you still getting on my case? I've agreed to disagree, I don't care to argue it, and you still jump on me. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 13:23
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If nothing else, expect to be held accountable for what you say here. Also, unless you have done something substantive for the community (and a promise does not count), expect not to be considered an authority on anything. Also there's a time delay of about three or four days before any sort of change takes effect. Unless you make a clear rhetorical distinction between a previous stance and your current one — one that doesn't just say, "Get off my back!" and actually says, "Look, I've changed my mind!" — then no one will pay attention. I'm answering a rhetorical question, I know, but I think it may be instructive. I'm a self-admitted newbie, but I've learned the rules here very consciously. EDIT: In other news, does a moderator feel like locking this topic? If this were General, Imban would've killed this thing a long time ago. Its very existence is the cause of the tension to which it responds. [ Tuesday, November 23, 2004 13:24: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Tuesday, November 23 2004 13:34
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I direct you here for the "substantiative" part. 100% functional dialogue editor, and the only thing I felt obligated to do (because it's the one I'd use). Right now, I am knee-deep into code on a project that will not benefit me in the slightest, and people seem to still enjoy jumping on my back. I'm genuinely wondering whether I ought to even continue with this, if the only reaction I'll get is "this sucks" (which, given the stances of most people here, is very likely--since it doesn't fit their preconceived notion of what is necessary). Now I'm sure someone's going to flame me for this--but hey, I long ago stopped caring. Please lock this, mods--it ain't worth it. [ Tuesday, November 23, 2004 13:35: Message edited by: Air 'N Ax ] Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |