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One spammy post closer to frolicking in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, April 10 2007 16:27 Profile #14
Huzzah, and congratulations!
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Plato vs. Aristotle in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 4 2007 06:27 Profile #3
Wasn't Hawkwind the prophet in the Ultima series?

[ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 06:28: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 4 2007 04:46 Profile #107
That's why almost every government these days calling itself a "democracy" is actually either a representative or parliamentary republic.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, April 3 2007 16:16 Profile #99
It protects consumers who may not have been aware that the product was put on notice. But beyond that, it's a pretty short step between having retailers post a notice and having them pull the items off the shelf. It's good business sense to begin with, not to mention selling anything that could cause injury is grounds for a tort action in any nation that uses the common law.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, April 3 2007 15:07 Profile #97
So you do object to mandatory food and product recalls? Thuryl, how do any of these policies really serve to limit the meaningful experiences of your life, other than perhaps by forestalling your death?

EDIT: And I don't think the evidence on the Pinto was anecdotal. Even Ford realized how poorly the car was designed, and included the expected costs from legal settlements in their figures before they decided to go ahead with it. Ford wanted the $2000 car, and the $8 or so per car it would have taken to correct the design defects would have put them over that figure. Their error was that they didn't figure on the cost to their good will.

[ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 15:14: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, April 3 2007 14:39 Profile #94
I used "tainted" in my example about a meat recall as a part of my assertion that we generally don't object when the government intervenes to protect citizens' health, even when the population at risk is actually very small. "Tainted" doesn't come into play when I'm talking about determining drug safety. With drugs, it's actually a matter of whether the drug, as designed, is sufficiently safe for resale to the population.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, April 3 2007 06:35 Profile #91
If it was just a matter of efficacy, I'd be more amenable to your position; but since it also concerns safety, I have to disagree with you. Do you object when the government moves to recall, say, a large amount of meat some of which has been found to be tainted? Sure, 98% of it is probably fine, but there's no way to know where that other 2% might be. How about other product recalls, like extremely flammable children's pajamas, or the Ford Pinto?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
All In The Family in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, April 2 2007 14:14 Profile #35
I would like to be a child of Scorp, plz.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Meet the speed breed! in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, April 2 2007 09:59 Profile #3
BOOYAH
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, April 2 2007 06:29 Profile #88
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

(I suppose you're going to ask me whether I think I know better than a panel of experts; that's entirely beside the point.)
I think that is the point, though. I know that you are very intelligent, but do you really think you have the knowledge to make such determinations, especially where, in the absence of regulation requiring it, pharmaceutical manufacturers wouldn't include relatively comprehensive labelling detailing the effectiveness, duration, and known side effects and their frequency of occurance for a given medication? Because they don't want to share this information. I've personally witnessed a negotiation between a pharmaceutical manufacturer and FDA where they dickered over language that would go into a label; if the pharma's marketing people would have had their way, you'd know practically nothing about the drug. Do you think they would include all the information about side effects and so on and so forth in their nevertheless incredibly effective television advertisements for their brands? Would you really rather take your chances on the company's assertion that the drug will do what they say it will?

I think that the development of medications has actually flourished, not been diminished, by the regulation and safeguards put into place by FDA. By mandating stringent levels of disclosure, as well as requiring that drugs be as safe as possible, FDA has significantly reduced risks to consumers, as well economic risks to pharmaceutical manufacturers. Consumers, relatively confident that the government is protecting their health, are more willing to pursue medical treatment; manufacturers, though faced with incredible costs up front, are subsequently better shielded against liability down the road, and encouraged to pursue developing truly effective medication.

quote:
Would you have every family's budgeting and investment decisions made for them by a panel of economists? Protecting people from themselves is ultimately futile, and unlikely to inspire gratitude.
The distinction is that here, the government isn't protecting people from themselves; it's protecting people from others. Where physical injury or death is concerned, it is the government's role to act, especially when the injury is caused by negligence or actual malice on the part of someone else. Whether there's gratitude involved is beside the point, though personally, I'm grateful.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, April 2 2007 05:33 Profile #84
The difference in your analogy is that in the case of a defendant, a crime has already been committed. In the case of the medication, the safety concerns can't occur until the drug is approved.

In the very least, Thuryl, I don't think you can argue against an "effective" requirement for medications before they're marketed. Look at the alternative - the dietary supplement market. Statutorially protected from the FDA, it's a multibillion dollar industry that is based largely on anecdotal evidence of effectiveness and frequently outright fraud in marketing.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Sunday, April 1 2007 16:15 Profile #76
Thuryl, FDA does have laxer standards for orphan drugs. Because the populations suffering from the diseases, the manufacturers frequently get to skip several rounds of human clinical trials - the idea being that the manufacturers will follow up with post-approval trials.

Congress really did step it up with the Orphan Drug Act back in 1983. There are also NGOs like NORD (www.rarediseases.org) that support and are involved in this cause. It's hardly been ignored.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 17:44 Profile #66
My bad - I was typing rather fast and loose. But still, I think the gist of my point stands.

It's unfortunate, but one-size-fits-all serves the most people with the greatest need. At least FDA has attempted to meet the needs of individuals with rare diseases; FDA offers ridiculous periods of marketing exclusivity for companies willing to develope "orphan drugs." Until pharmaceutical manufacturers are motivated by something more magnanimous than profit - and that's going to be a long wait - we're going to have to make due with the initiative they take, combined with what incentives the government can provide.

As for pulling lifestyle improving-yet-threatening drugs off the market: what are you talking about? Vioxx? It's all well and good, until the patient dies and the family takes action on behalf of the estate. Never pretty, and Merck is getting hosed for it. The alternative is for Congress to make the corporation immune to liability, and that's a horrendous slippery slope to start down.

[ Saturday, March 31, 2007 17:45: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Saturday, March 31 2007 12:03 Profile #64
LF, even controlling for all those factors, you're ideal society would not erupt from them like Athena from Zeus' head. People are competitive, form factions, establish some sort of social order inherently. Consider "Lord of the Flies." Think about every time you've been in a new group situation, and "it's like freshman year all over again." Sure, everyone's nice at first, but then eventually things get sorted out, and many of the people you were friendly with at first don't give a hoot about you latter. It's hard-wired.

---

As for the Liberterianism/"free markets" hooey, it all sounds great, but it doesn't work. While the market works in many circumstances, there are market failures ("Pigouian Moments") that require government interference in order to prevent people from injuring themselves and others in one way or another. Frequently, this is on account of assymetric information, one of those big externalities, and the reason why Coase Theorem fails. A lack of information increases risk, both from mistakes and actual malice. It's government's role, then, to step in and shield those who don't have access to information sufficient to make informed decisions, because there's no one else that will or can - none of us have enough time or resources to develope expertise on everything that touches our lives, and investing resources into making such determinations frequently is not profitable enough for private industry to pursue.

Ever try buying a used car? If you have, you should be grateful there are consumer protection laws in place to prevent dealers from rolling back the odometers like they used to. How about your medications? Thanks to the FDA, you can be 99.9% certain your remedies aren't anything more than snake oil. The government helps dampen the effects of a lack of expertise, and frankly, I think we all benefit from it a lot more than any of us knows.

Finally, is there such a thing as a poor libertarian/Libertarian? I've never heard of one. Libertarianism is great if you're rich, because the net benefits of libertarian policies accrue to you. If you're at the other end, on the other hand, well then too bad - no medicine for your child this year! Good thing you have that low wage job at the textile factory making materials for Richie McLibertarian's new fleece jacket, or otherwise you might not even be able to afford that McDonald's for your children that looks so healthy on TV...

EDIT: That said, I do agree with the notion that we should be free (for the most part) to do what we want, provided that we're mindful of those same rights in others. However, I'm not really certain what society as a whole would gain from being less regulated over all. Were things really better at the turn of the 20th century? I don't think so. And what are we really missing out on by being taxed and regulated as we are now? Primarily, it's wealthy people only being able to rake in perhaps $2M instead of $2.4M. On the other hand, children whose parents can't afford it are starting to get healthcare, thanks to some innovative state initiatives.

[ Saturday, March 31, 2007 12:15: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
LOST in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 03:56 Profile #16
The Truth.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, March 29 2007 03:50 Profile #40
Heck, if you're a plumber around the DC area, you can make bank.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
The U.S. and Iraq in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, March 28 2007 18:26 Profile #117
Actually, it's pretty easy to get into government records - it's called the Freedom of Information Act. Maybe it's just hard if you live out in Nevada and take the KKKoolaid drinkers at their word.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
What have you been reading lately? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:32 Profile #339
Okay, I've now read all of China Mieville's "Bas-Lag" novels - "Perdido Street Station," "The Scar," and "Iron Council," and I think out of them, I liked "The Scar" the best. I think you have to read the first one though in order to truly understand his setting, but it was a pretty entertaining ride in its own right, if a bit gritty/Dickens-esque. Certainly a heckuva lot better than other run of the mill fantasy stuff out there, like the Eddings books.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:15 Profile #31
I believe we were talking about alternatives, not ideals. I apologize for not being more explicit; what I meant was viable alternatives.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:11 Profile #29
quote:
Originally written by LF:

I was actually thinking something along the lines of doing both. After all, we're talking about an ideal society. And why in the zell would there be a prep test for an aptitude test?! The very concept is almost a contradiction in and of itself
People in society will never behave ideally; at best, you can count on them to behave rationally, and this is heavily qualified by the information that is available at the time for them to base their decisions on, not to mention the extent of their own analytical accuity.

As Madison said in Federalist No. 51:
quote:
But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
People aren't angels, and this is where every "ideal society" falls short, and consideration of them becomes impractical.

As for test prep materials, they haven't invented a test yet that couldn't be prepped for. Furthermore, who is or would be writing the tests? Certainly not angels.

[ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 09:12: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
The U.S. and Iraq in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, March 28 2007 08:52 Profile #110
Don't mistake for malice what is more easily explained by incompetence. The government created the internet for the sake of policing our thoughts? Please. The proliferation of internet porn belies that assertion.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
The U.S. and Iraq in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 19:35 Profile #107
Wow. Is there a test range for nuclear devices out near where you live in Nevada, Excalibur?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Thou hast not shown thy compassion well. Be more kind unto others! in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 15:50 Profile #70
quote:
Originally written by Spent Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Drew:

I own the green. You are shunted via the fifth-third ordinal rule to Heathrow.
Damnit. Is that still an automatic 2 turns of confusion followed by three wrong turns and 30 quid taxicab ride to the wrong address?
If you have an Arab-sounding name, you also lose an additional 8 turns, and experience the rubber glove.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Now is the time ... in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 15:17 Profile #21
quote:
Originally written by Ktgsvgnfgn:

No matter the system, the end result is always the same: Oppression.

In every system of government that was, is, or will be will exist on some form of subjugation. There will always be those select few who will dominate the masses.

Even if there is a revolution that replaces the existing corrupt government with a new pure one, that new idealistic government will become just as corrupt as its predecessor.
No kidding! But what's the alternative, pal, and is it better?

I have a feeling we have a pitch for "enlightened anarchy" coming soon. :rolleyes:
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Thou hast not shown thy compassion well. Be more kind unto others! in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, March 27 2007 15:06 Profile #65
I own the green. You are shunted via the fifth-third ordinal rule to Heathrow.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00

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