Now is the time ...
Pages
| Author | Topic: Now is the time ... |
|---|---|
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 08:42
Profile
quote:I was actually thinking something along the lines of doing both. After all, we're talking about an ideal society. And why in the zell would there be a prep test for an aptitude test?! The very concept is almost a contradiction in and of itself -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:01
Profile
Homepage
quote:Test prep is an inevitable consequence of the existence of standardized tests. The SAT is supposed to be an aptitude test (they still call it the Reasoning test), but there is an incredible amount of prep available for it. The LSAT is much nearer to a real reasoning test, and it is extremely prep-able. Make a test, and companies will offer prep for it. It's just that simple. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:06
Profile
I suppose, but if you eliminate the companies or make preparation for a political placement illegal and punishable by execution(or field castration). EDIT: Of course, all you have to do is redo the test every year and do it the test up properly and prep courses will be virtually useless [ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 09:10: Message edited by: LF ] -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:09
Profile
quote:That concept is so American. *really* :rolleyes: -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:11
Profile
quote:People in society will never behave ideally; at best, you can count on them to behave rationally, and this is heavily qualified by the information that is available at the time for them to base their decisions on, not to mention the extent of their own analytical accuity. As Madison said in Federalist No. 51: quote:People aren't angels, and this is where every "ideal society" falls short, and consideration of them becomes impractical. As for test prep materials, they haven't invented a test yet that couldn't be prepped for. Furthermore, who is or would be writing the tests? Certainly not angels. [ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 09:12: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:11
Profile
I'm sorry, I thought we'd moved on to defining what an idea society would be like. My mistake -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:15
Profile
I believe we were talking about alternatives, not ideals. I apologize for not being more explicit; what I meant was viable alternatives. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:37
Profile
In all truth, viability depends solely on the individuals and the masses. It'll be a long time before human nature will change enough to were anything the resembles a society capable of creating an ideal government that can function and provide for the needs of its people. To achieve all of these things the people and technology must under a dramatic change all at once. Change for the better must be all at once, or not at all. Ironically, change for the worst is more often than not gradual. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:39
Profile
There is no empirical evidence that human nature is capable of change. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 09:43
Profile
Homepage
quote:This brings to mind the more salient argument against this, which is that standardized tests are very bad at measuring in individuals what they are purported to measure. The SAT is intended to predict a person's freshman grades in college, which it more or less does, on a broad statistical basis. However, it completely fails with certain individuals. Any standardized test will do the same. A society based around placement tests may have some broad statistical fairness, but it will be horribly unfair to individuals. (This is the reason why, by the way, colleges don't judge you solely on your test scores.) quote:This is harder than you might think. You're intending to test the same skills, but you want to test them in substantially different and novel ways at all times? You've set out a formidable task indeed. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 10:45
Profile
And yet no one complains about IQ tests or for that matter written psychiatric evaluation exams... -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 11:03
Profile
quote:Because there's no empirical evidence human nature exists. :P quote:Yes they do. Read 'The Mismeasure of Man' sometime - it's a classic in the genre of critique of standardized testing. IQ is basically meaningless as a measurement of what it's supposed to measure, because it's skewed in favor of white upper-class males. The average scores for inner-city black children on IQ tests is between 80 and 90, and unless you're a Libertarian-voting cretin who honestly believes that all black people are functionally retarded, that's a fairly clear indicator the test is useless in measuring intelligence. [ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:05: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:02
Profile
Everybody complains about IQ tests and standardized psychiatric tests. They are extremely crude instruments for measuring stuff that nobody remotely understands, and that may very well not even exist in anything like the forms the tests presuppose. The people who design these tests are presumably doing their best under the circumstances, but that best is lousy. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 12:13
Profile
Homepage
All standardized tests have flaws. IQ tests have really big flaws. To be honest, I think we'd probably be better off with only very specific tests. If you have supposedly learned underwater basket weaving, an underwater basket weaving test should be less subject to the vagaries of who's taking the test than very general aptitude tests. Specificity isn't perfect, but it's probably better. Given a hypothetical and probably impossible test that truly did test aptitude in all possible fields of human endeavor, though, I think you'd probably get most people assigned to work they like. Most people I know who aren't enthusiastic about their jobs aren't very good at them either, and most people who are enthusiastic are also good. The problem then is filling the posts that require no real aptitude and those that just aren't enthralling for anyone. —Alorael, who sincerely believes that every job goes better when the one performing it is satisfied with the work. He just can't picture undiscovered masses with a pumping gas as their calling. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Wednesday, March 28 2007 18:19
Profile
Homepage
I suppose I should add that I'm not saying that I'm against giving people standardized tests as one measure of their knowledge in a field or aptitude for something. I'm just against it being the sole (or even the primary) factor. Practical necessity makes it inevitable that admissions offices use numbers (GPA, test scores) to judge applicants, but designing an entire society that way is probably a bad thing. As far as getting people into the right jobs, though, I think that vocational education needs to come back in a big way. Becoming a carpenter or a mechanic is just as legitimate a career choice as becoming a lawyer or doctor, even if the money is not quite the same. (If I'm not mistaken, I've made this point on these boards before.) [ Wednesday, March 28, 2007 18:24: Message edited by: Malakos the Freshly-Plowed ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 03:50
Profile
Heck, if you're a plumber around the DC area, you can make bank. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 08:25
Profile
quote:Hell, I don't see the difference between all of them. They'll all rip you off about the same. But that is a good point that I'm going to claim I was going to mention(whether I was or wasn't is somewhat beside the point). Vocational Schools should be far more important in this and all countries. Expecting pretty much everyone to go to a 4 year(or more) university is unrealistic at best. It's unreasonable to expect people who don't do well in a school setting(which they need to redo how that works, too) to go to college, which is a exponentially worse for them. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 08:31
Profile
quote:Yeah. More people should know everything so that they never have to get outside help or opinions. Dag nab it. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 08:50
Profile
Sal, don't make me drag you off to a Civil War Re-Enactment -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 09:45
Profile
Homepage
quote:Sinks don't sue when you make a few mistakes here and there with the plumbing. —Alorael, who can think of some unexpected differences even in similarities. Both can explode violently if you manage the plumbing poorly enough, but sinks do it more often and people do it more excitingly. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 10:22
Profile
quote:Just found out I'll be on the ocean this weekend, finally getting some fishing time. Yee Haw! -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 4638
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 10:34
Profile
quote:How does being Libertarian have anything to do with believing black people are functionally retarded? No aspect of Libertarianism suggests any belief similar to that which you have suggested. Assuming that people vote for those who are aligned with what they believe, Libertarian voters do not believe as you have stated. Libertarianism is basically a political philosophy. Libertarians believe that people are the owners of their own lives and people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they allow others the same liberty. Further, all interaction should be consensual and voluntary. You clearly know nothing about Libertarianism. In fact, I would say Libertarians in generally believe that all people are intelligent and will make the right decisions if given the freedom to do so and if the societal system of rewards and punishments is aligned with the true free market value of things, accounting for all externalities. I will not attempt to guess your political affiliation. However, I will comment that from the conduct of two major political parties in the US, one could reach the conclusion that they believe exactly that which you have ascribed to Libertarians. ---------------- Try Libertarianism, tastes more like Classic Liberalism -------------------- And so it goes. Posts: 93 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2080
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 10:46
Profile
I could've sworn that keeping down the blacks was a rich white person thing(ie. Republican)... However, Kurt Russell is in the Libertarian Party and Kurt Russell is The Man(as in the one white guy who personally keeps all the brothers down), so there may be some truth in the whole "Libertarian Party being against blacks thing" Though, for some reason I doubt that a political party that isn't one of the big 2 has much of any real say in what goes on in the US... -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 6670
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 10:53
Profile
Homepage
Alec's skipping ahead (and I'm guessing that, for the most part, 'retarded' is a hyperbole). The reasoning he's arguing against goes like this: i) Libertarianism is correct. ii) Because libertarianism is correct, black people have as much opportunity as white people. iii) Yet black people are not as wealthy as white people. iv) Therefore, there must be some factor unique to black people that stops them from prospering as much as white people. Most would say it's the vicious circle of poverty that is the root of this, those from the right as well as the left. But extreme libertarianism states that the government must not interfere. Extreme libertarianism not only states that the market will do its work, it also states that the market already has done its work. Once you remove the possibility of blaming the game, the only thing left to do is blame the players. -------------------- There's some entertainment value in watching people juggle nitroglycerin. - Larry Wall [ Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:56: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
|
written Thursday, March 29 2007 11:17
Profile
quote:You'd think that, but there's a long tradition of soi-disant Libertarians being against advances in civil rights long after they become ubiqutously lauded. Among them: anti-Jim Crow legislation (they claim the market should have taken care of it), affirmative action, anti-discrimination legislation, and so on. Maybe the movement itself has no particular problem with minorities (even though their policies, which affect the poor negatively, tend to also disproportionately harm minorities as a result), but nearly every Libertarian I've spoken to or read about has serious race issues. One of the most repugnant spectacles in recent memory was a so-called Libertarian who played in blackface and drag, acting out a grotesque 'mammy' stereotype, trying to break out of his largely southern support base into Californian clubs. It's not as if he was marginal among Libertarians, either - he was, IIRC, a candidate for the House in Texas - something that would tend to require the Party itself to vet him. The few critics of Lincoln whose primary political credentials aren't being baying Southern reactionaries are Libertarians. (I can point out the literature there if you'd like; even the modern Republicans, who have little to agree with for Lincoln, like him.) quote:This is fine and good, and why my early statement about libertarians was prefaced with 'nearly'. I'm aware what the movement ostensibly believes, but there's a lot of people who use that as a screen for reactionary behavior. quote:'The societal system of rewards and punishments is aligned with the true free market value of things' is where you go wrong: it's basically endorsing the current situation as 'aligned with the free market'. While you do acknowledge there are externalities, those externalities are so powerful as to make the question of whether the market is free an open one. When one percent of infants are born with enough wealth to survive their entire lives comfortably and twenty percent of infants are born into debt, you can hardly call the lives they lead compared to one another the product of their own choices. That Paris Hilton is still richer than either of us is a pretty clear sign that society is so strongly governed by externalities that a market theory for it is more or less useless. quote:You're right in that the two major parties are pretty bad when it comes to race relations. This is one reason of many why I do not support them; I am a Socialist. [ Friday, March 30, 2007 17:47: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |