Profile for Or else o'erleap.
| Field | Value |
|---|---|
| Displayed name | Or else o'erleap. |
| Member number | 335 |
| Title | Law Bringer |
| Postcount | 14579 |
| Homepage | http://www.polarisboard.net |
| Registered | Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 19:00
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quote:Since I explicitly said that Avernum is not a monarchy, it's pretty clear that they're not incapable of functioning without one. Micah was never a figurehead. He was a leader and a warrior who became a leader and a secretary. I find it more plausible that he's overworked because he has duties piled on top of him, not because he is taking power to himself. What privileged ruler deliberately overworks himself? As for the Council being ineffective and self-centered, I question your reasoning. Who is to say that they aren't just as patriotic as the king? For that matter, what gives you the idea that the response from the Castle was anything but paralysis in the face of the shades? Neither the mayors nor the king accomplished anything. —Alorael, who thinks many things could be done differently and perhaps better if Avernum were reimagined from the beginning. If A1-3 are accepted, however, Chevyn cannot have power even if he has the throne, so no one would bother to back him. It would have been interesting to see the results of Houghton's assassination if he were ruling alongside Chevyn instead of the much more capable Starrus. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:30
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No, you're not actually looking at the people you interact with in Avernum. They're not like peasants. They're reasonably worldly, mostly hard-nosed, and frequently cynical from their banishments. They may not all be fighters, but they all at some point didn't bow down to authority. You're right that Chevyn could rule as long as he kept the bandits away, but that's not power. As soon as he overstepped his bounds and tried proactive rulership, he'd be ousted. Nobody wants a monarch, really. Tied in with that is the fact that Micah is called king as a title without actually being the head of a monarchy. The first-born is not automatically the heir. In fact, given how much Avernum doesn't want to remake the Empire, I'm surprised they made kingship hereditary at all. The upshot is that nobody would care to replace a competent ruler with another ruler, even a possibly equally competent one. Houghton may be Starrus's puppet master, but he does a good job so everyone accepts it. Someone else could manage Starrus (or Chevyn, if he were on the throne) but controlling the king only allows as much control as the king can claim, and in Avernum that's really not very much. Finally, I think we may just have to disagree about Garzahd and the Empire. It's definitely true that Garzahd would keep fighting (and does) if the rest of the Empire is no longer behind him. However, you assume that the Empire would not keep fighting without Garzahd. That is false within the games, and there's no reason it should be true. Garzahd is certainly no more important to the workings of the Empire than Hawthorne was, and the Empire survived Hawthorne's assassination well enough to launch itself into a war. I'm sure someone happily picks up the reins of power when Garzahd falls and does a fine, lower profile job of directing the army. —Alorael, who agrees with Thuryl. Horrigan is not a bad boss because the point is not defeating Frank Horrigan. He's just an exemplar of the Enclave. The Enclave is collectively your enemy, and having random Enclave goons perform Frank's massacres would make them just as evil and defeating them just as satisfying. Compare this (again) to Nethergate's ending, in which you do battle with powerful figures from the opposite side that you've never met before. They're personally unimportant except as representatives of the Romans or Celts, but that doesn't make the Romans or Celts collectively any less antagonistic. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Where is Vorhees? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 14:23
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Actually, they're both wandering around in the fields. —Alorael, who had trouble finding both of them until suddenly inspiration struck and both were located. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 12:35
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The Chinese had millenia of dynasties that lasted generation after generation. Those who weren't part of the aristocracy and the bureaucracy were ignorant peasants, and ignorant is very much an operative word there. Avernum had one king, and he was made king because he was good at doing things that were good for Avernum. The average Avernite can read and write, knows what things are like, and has first-hand experience of what bad rulership/bureaucracy is like under the Empire. They are also, unlike the Chinese peasants, quite often armed and quite often trained with those arms. I don't think Avernum really supports the king at all. Taxes are presumably collected, but the government is clearly there because it's best for fending off the monsters. Edicts are out of the question, and most people just want to go about their business without interference. If the king were not able to provide his minimal services or stated getting grand ideas about really having despotic power I think he would be disabused quickly. Also, consider how much everyone, including Micah, disliked Chevyn and looked forward to his reign with distaste. —Alorael, who thinks you are conflating two separate ideas. Yes, groups often make use of symbols and leaders make good symbols. Actual leadership is not the same as playing figurehead, though. Big Brother is a symbol, not a leader. Hitler was some of both. Lenin and Mao were leaders who were made into symbols, the former posthumously and the latter during his lifetime. Garzahd was an effective leader and a threat to Avernum personally, but his death only deprived the Empire of tactics and some power. It didn't break the Empire's spirit or its desire to defeat Avernum. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| The Crystal Soul theft in The Avernum Trilogy | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 12:19
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The thefts were after, but there's no way to know when the Empire's first contact with the vahnatai was. It couldn't have been too long before A2 because none of the vahnatai had been awake for long. In my baseless opinion the encounter with the vahnatai, the deal with Gaddika, and the kidnappings all happened after Hawthorne's assassination. —Alorael, who thinks that the Empire could easily have discovered the existence of the vahnatai while examining the caves more closely once Avernum went from the Empire's unwanted person disposal area to a real threat. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Because it's been forever since the last one in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 08:18
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When did Nico become the new Rosycat? —Alorael, who wonders what it is about Spiderweb that makes this happen. Perhaps it is a sign of a deep, underlying psychological fault that brings everyone here together. Freud would have a field day with this. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 08:16
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I think it's worth pointing out that the world of Avernum doesn't have society like medieval Europe despite similarities. The Empire has very little nobility that we've seen, and there has definitely been evidence of promotion to high authority for merit. The system is more like imperial China's, but even more so. Avernum is really only on its first generation of born Avernites. The number of powerful people banished is limited, and most of them seem to be magically and not politically skilled. The Empire's citizens may not be prone to rebellion, but that's because the rebels were all tossed into Avernum. I actually think Avernum's portrayal drastically downplays the powderkeg potential of a collection of people who didn't get along with society. —Alorael, who disagrees entirely about the point of A2. If Garzahd were the Empire, only his ending would be needed. He is the most powerful single force behind the Empire, but he is not the sole cause of the invasion, its sole supporter, or its entire backbone. Big Brother is an even worse example, because "he" is a fabrication. He's necessary as a tactic, not as an individual. As long as the Party exists so does Big Brother, not vice versa. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 19:51
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Avernum is basically a nation of people who didn't work well with authority. They're still a fairly independent lot. Their monarchy was only one generation old at the time of Micah's death. I think they'd be more inclined to oust or ignore any incompetent ruler. A puppeteer behind Chevyn's throne would be fine as long as they were competent and not too malicious, but anything else and a bunch of armed, hardened Exiles would march on the Castle. —Alorael, who thinks Nethergate works just fine without any real lead antagonist. Is A2's portal ending less important because you're fighting the Empire in general rather than a specific general, pun intended? Isn't the Party of 1984 terrifying as a whole, not because of the fictitious Big Brother character or O'Brien? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 17:19
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There's no need for a villain at all, really. A faction makes a much better opponent, and while most factions will have leaders on top and underlings on the bottom, focusing on a group often gives clearer reasons for what their doing and more chances to collectively understand your enemies. —Alorael, who thinks this is more because designers tend to think of groups very differently and in more detail than their lone villain counterparts. People need reasons to work together for a common cause. They need reasons to follow a villain, too, but those get hand-waved frequently. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Musing on Avernum in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 17:15
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Avernum has reputation, not Exile, and even in BoE it's not too hard to add a stuff done flag for reputation. I imagine that making a variable/SDF for it in BoA is simple. —Alorael, who likes reputation in principle but generally finds it poorly executed unless each faction involved has reputation tracked separately. Geneforge does just that. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| The Crystal Soul theft in The Avernum Trilogy | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 13:45
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I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The Empire doesn't know very much about the vahnatai, but they do apparently know that vahnatai turn into crystals sometimes and that those crystals are powerful. The Empire likes being powerful. —Alorael, who also thinks the Empire's policy of not getting along with anyone but humans and not even very well with some humans, notably Avernum, may have something to do with it. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Mod Alerts in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:52
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There's something to tack onto the push for net neutrality. The border should not offer priveleged passage to those who can pay more. Remember, while you may cross in a big truck, the border is actually tubes! —Alorael, who thinks this has been pushed farther than it should go. He is happy about this fact. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Musing on Avernum in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:50
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For what it's worth, I do think GF4 is an improvement. I can't really compare it to other Geneforges, but it does well on the plot, on the tactics, and on the nifty things to see and do. —Alorael, who likes A3 but concedes that it has a large amount of aimless wandering compared to other Avernums. A4 seems to get a lot of hate, as discussed elsewhere, for its plot. Jeff has at least acknowledged this and he's said that A5 will be different. GF4 certainly is. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Musing on Avernum in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:50
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For what it's worth, I do think GF4 is an improvement. I can't really compare it to other Geneforges, but it does well on the plot, on the tactics, and on the nifty things to see and do. —Alorael, who likes A3 but concedes that it has a large amount of aimless wandering compared to other Avernums. A4 seems to get a lot of hate, as discussed elsewhere, for its plot. Jeff has at least acknowledged this and he's said that A5 will be different. GF4 certainly is. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Black shades in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:47
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Picking fights with shades isn't a problem as long as you can run away and not get any important NPCs killed. —Alorael, who does not like Almaria or its shade. That Houghton-box-Almaria bug is a pain. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:43
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In A1, killing Hawthorne is only one quest and there's no real plot. Hawthorne is clearly evil, not because his evil is obvious, but because you are told. He's a terrible villain. That's okay, though, because his villainy isn't really the point. In A2, the Empire attacks Avernum. That's more or less predictable. The Empire can't let itself be beaten by a bunch of exiles. Garzahd is their leader, but he's not an important leader. The plot is about stopping the Empire and being friends with the vahnatai along the way. A3 is about stopping plagues of monsters, discovering what's behind them, and then stopping Rentar-Ihrno from making more. The plagues are okay, such as they are, but the game is based mainly on the mystery and on exploring a huge new world. Rentar's revenge is questionable because the ones behind the kidnapping of the Crystal Souls were already killed in A2, but she doesn't care. Fair enough. A4 has A3's plot without the mystery, without any variation in enemies, really, and without a new area. Now Rentar-Ihrno has put her vengeance on her enemies on hold to get vengeance on secondary enemies who thwarted her primary vengeance, and she's happy to cause huge amounts of collateral damage to the people who also rescued the Crystal Souls. Not so good. —Alorael, who is just happy that Rentar-Ihrno is out of the center of the picture. Maybe Dorikas can get some time in the limelight. Maybe new things. New and good atmosphere make up for a lot of bad or nonexistent plot. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Because it's been forever since the last one in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:34
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Maybe he too has a hankering to get punctured? —Alorael, who does not mean that as a euphemism no matter how tempting it appears. There is no subtext, supertext, or sidetext whatsoever. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Worst game possible: First round in Richard White Games | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 18:59
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Hey, I like text adventure games. I just also like them more when they're upfront about how you do whatever it is you're doing. —Alorael, who has fond memories of dying over and over and over in the beginning of Zork until he had the sudden stunning realization that he could fight back with better word choice. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 17:21
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Let's suppose instead of the flats battle Rentar uses her little chit-chat to convince you that she has her forces built up somewhere, say in the Abyss. You convince Houghton or Starrus, get a big army sent there, and attack Rentar-Ihrno. You win. However, actually Rentar just wanted the Avernite army out of the way so she could break through Fort Remote and start rampaging through the Great Cave. Now you've got an entirely new situation because a villain did something. That would work very well. It's not that things have to happen without the party being involved. Everything can still eb triggered by player actions as long as some of those things are not direct consequences of what the player wants to do. A sudden change from "Let's kill Rentar-Ihrno!" to "Oh no! Let's save the children being killed in Dharmon!" would keep things interesting. —Alorael, who doesn't think A4 is a failure. He likes it. He just doesn't like it for its plot, which is like A3's only less interesting. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Mod Alerts in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 17:12
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Probably because of poor engineering. The border needs more bandwidth. —Alorael, who is sure someone can beat the outdated 1,951 miles that has been the border's capacity for the last century and a half. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 12:10
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Geneforge, I think. The enemy doesn't have to be a single person. Being able to talk to the other side and its sympathizers makes it less one-dimensional. A2 doesn't do this, but Nethergate does: you play as the other side and you also meet plenty of people who having leanings or just vocal ambivalence. Look at all the wizards you've named. How many have taken an active role at any time during the Avernum series? X never does anything, Solberg hangs around to give out plot advice and rewards, and Rone does the same with more senility. Only Kelner has changed at all, and even he doesn't really do anything. Yes, you are the heroic adventurers who save the world, but it would be nice to see other people doing something once in a while. —Alorael, who probably shouldn't have said personality. Jeff is good at personality. Development and activity in the context of a single game is a better criterion. Erika is the only one to act, and it's always in conjunction with the party. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| Worst game possible: First round in Richard White Games | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 10:48
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Text-based games in general often suffer from obscure commands and syntax, which is a trick that has been gleefully adopted by graphical games. I think that needs to go on the list. Making necessary tasks hard to perform is bad, but making them easy to perform and hard to figure out is just as bad. —Alorael, who has played too many games that demand exactly once, sometime in the middle, the use of an ability, key combination, or trick that is easily overlooked. It is often overlooked because it is otherwise entirely useless. Somewhere there is a programmer sniggering evilly. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| GOOGLE is GOD!! in General | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 10:46
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I dislike the site design, though. I wonder if there's a shortage of devout web designers? —Alorael, who thinks Google's divinity has already been established. Thou art God! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
| How would you do it? in Avernum 4 | |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 10:42
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I think there are a few things that work well for maintaining a good plot, and I use plot very loosely. An active antagonist is good, a complicated antagonist is good, and both together are very good. The easiest way to manage that is to have the player encounter the villain regularly, especially in settings other than open combat. You only really sit down and chat with Rentar once in A3, and that's before you know she's guilty. After that, A3 and A4 involve only combat encounters with Rentar-Ihrno. To go along with that, factions work well. Having the Romans and the Celts in Nethergate succeeds in part because neither is the bad guys. You play as one side against the other, but your immediate antagonists are always other problems and direct confrontation only appears at the end. The final "villains" aren't even recognizable unless you've played though the other side of the story. Geneforge's sects do this too, but I'm not a Geneforge expert. The other solution is to give friendly characters more personality. A plague of monsters is fine if it's not the focus of everything. Rampaging mindless evil isn't very interesting, but society crumbling and a few people trying to hold everything together in the face of rampaging mindless evil can be interesting. —Alorael, who can summarize by saying that predicating a plot on killing things is a bad idea. Predicating a plot on diplomacy and dialogue is much better. Nethergate does this quite a bit, and A2 does it more than any other Avernum. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |